Now we get to see if Kraft is cheap or shrewd

[mike_usagisan]

I expect that if Kraft wants Vrabel, he'll negotiate the salary down a little without driving Vrabel away. Same if it's Johnson. Kraft is a businessman and probably rarely accepts the first stated price.

 

[Family]

I expect that if Kraft wants Vrabel, he'll negotiate the salary down a little without driving Vrabel away. Same if it's Johnson. Kraft is a businessman and probably rarely accepts the first stated price.

Of course.

Where did this story even break? How could anyone even know what is going on with negotiations? We don't even know if Vrabel is the choice.

Did we ever hear anything about any contract talk with Bill? No one ever knew how much, how long......

Is this how Vrabel negotiates is my bigger question..........................?

 

[mike_usagisan]

Of course.

Where did this story even break? How could anyone even know what is going on with negotiations? We don't even know if Vrabel is the choice.

Did we ever hear anything about any contract talk with Bill? No one ever knew how much, how long......

Is this how Vrabel negotiates is my bigger question..........................?

We didn't get reporting, it was a random post on Twitter/X.

But I imagine Vrabel is a really tough negotiator. I believe he has used both the Jets and Raiders vacancies to put pressure on Kraft.

But it's that kind of strategic mind that makes him a really effective coach.

 

[Family]

We didn't get reporting, it was a random post on Twitter/X.

But I imagine Vrabel is a really tough negotiator. I believe he has used both the Jets and Raiders vacancies to put pressure on Kraft.

But it's that kind of strategic mind that makes him a really effective coach.

Agreed.

So then why doesn't anyone think that it's just Vrabel negotiating when evidence on how Kraft has worked with previous coaches points otherwise?

 

[mike_usagisan]

Agreed.

So then why doesn't anyone think that it's just Vrabel negotiating when evidence on how Kraft has worked with previous coaches points otherwise?

In a vacuum, people will fill in the emptiness with what they believe is happening. It often tells you more about the people than what’s actually going on.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

The thread title: " Is Kraft cheap or shrewd?"

He kept the league's most expensive coach for 20 years with no hint of salary issue, despite they obviously didn't have love for each other.
He built a stadium and kept the team here.

Kraft has spent when he needs to. I'm not saying he's a generous man, and spends when he thinks it's not necessary.

I wouldn't have wasted much money on what was going on since the last Super Bowl either.

Let's see what happens now.

Being cheap is how you pinch the expense categories not how you spend on buildings and cap equipment. Even cheap guys spend on stadiums and such as it is a capital investment that grows the business.

Spending on BB is a fair point. Having the lowest cash spend over 10 years counteracts that point. Having lousy facilities for the players counteracts that point. Rolling over cap dollars counteracts that point.

Robert will sit up and spend once every 5 years, and then fans roll over and go wild thinking that the 5-year spend proves RK is not cheap. Don't talk about stadiums and equipment on 20 year mortgages that can be passed onto the next owner. Talk about cash spent each year on expense items that is lost forever. Same year cash expenditures define generosity. RK rolls over his cap because he spends the least amount possible. Players' survey is lousy not for 1 year, but multiple years, because RK delays spending year after year.

He is a billionaire so he can donate 1 or 2% which is a lot of money, but that does not make him generous or shrewd. RK is cheap.

 

[Family]

In a vacuum, people will fill in the emptiness with what they believe is happening. It often tells you more about the people than what’s actually going on.

That was my point.

Thank you!

 

[Family]

Being cheap is how you pinch the expense categories not how you spend on buildings and cap equipment. Even cheap guys spend on stadiums and such as it is a capital investment that grows the business.

You're saying he can be BOTH cheap and shrewd because it was pretty shrewd investing in this area where Kraft now has a top 5 football property.

Cheap people don't build stadiums when someone will give them one.

A cheap less insightful owner would have packed his bags and let Hartford or someplace else build him one.

He is a billionaire so he can donate 1 or 2% which is a lot of money, but that does not make him generous or shrewd. RK is cheap.

Where did I say generous?

You just don't know how things work so we'll end the discussion at that.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

You're saying he can be BOTH cheap and shrewd because it was pretty shrewd investing in this area where Kraft now has a top 5 football property.

That is not shrewd. It is low risk high reward. It is the opposite of shrewd.

Cheap people don't build stadiums when someone will give them one.

A cheap less insightful owner would have packed his bags and let Hartford or someplace else build him one.

RK is loyal. I will give him that.

You keep confusing different investment categories and emotional responses. Hard to separate it all for you as you keep compounding.

 

[Bill Lee]

Both of those B-767's are Leased, not Bought.

That's not my understanding. The Krafts purchased them and they put them into a shell corporation. They sub-let them to others so they don't just sit idle when the Pats don't need them. They have a third party outfit operating and managing the aircraft for them since they aren't aviation gurus.

Kraft and the Patriots purchased these aircraft in December 2017. Officially, these aircraft are owned by 2/5/94 LLC, which is based in Foxborough, Massachusetts. The Patriots have leased out these aircraft several times over the years, once leasing both of the aircraft to Eastern Airlines and most recently, leasing both of the aircraft to Omni Air International. Eastern Airlines also operates both of these aircraft on behalf of the Patriots.

AirKraft: A Guide To The New England Patriots' Private Jets

The NFL team operates its own business jets.

simpleflying.com

 

[Family]

That is not shrewd. It is low risk high reward. It is the opposite of shrewd.

RK is loyal. I will give him that.

You keep confusing different investment categories and emotional responses. Hard to separate it all for you as you keep compounding.

What's emotional?

He was offered a stadium to be publicly built like every other team and opted instead to invest here.

He provided enough opportunity to allow the GOAT and GOAT to win 6 Super Bowls.

Still not enough.

 

[Bill Lee]

Kraft privately financed the construction of Gillette Stadium.

The cheap owner funded the only NFL stadium to be entirely privately financed.

He didn't take your tax dollars like every other owner.

The team would not likely be here without him.

That means no 6 Super Bowls.

Those of us around from the start know that he spent more money to buy the Patriots than any other team had sold for at that point in time.

He was openly ridiculed for spending so much for the crappy team with its crappy stadium.

The guy who owned it was gonna move the team, but Bob had him by the short and curlies and didn't let go.

In 1994, Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to buy out the remainder of the team's lease at Foxboro Stadium, but Kraft turned it down. Orthwein was not interested in operating the team in New England and decided to sell it. However, due to terms in the operating covenant, any potential buyer would have to negotiate with Kraft. With this in mind, Kraft launched what amounted to a hostile takeover, offering $172 million for an outright purchase which Orthwein accepted. It was the highest price ever paid for an NFL team at the time.[38] While future St. Louis/Los Angeles Rams owner Stan Kroenke had actually offered more money ($200 million), Orthwein would have had to bear all of the team's relocation expenses. Orthwein would have also been responsible for paying any legal expenses from breaking the lease. With Kraft let it be known that he would go to court to enforce the covenant and force Kroenke to stay in Foxboro, Orthwein was in an untenable position. He had little choice but to accept Kraft's bid.[38]

Shrewd not cheap, says I.

Robert Kraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[borg]

Frugal means value for money .. doesn't mean cheap...

frugal​

adjective​

fru·gal ˈfrü-gəl

Synonyms of frugal
: characterized by or reflecting economy in the use of resources

No owner has been more economical in his use of resources in the past 10 years

When did frugality become to be frowned upon... ?

You clearly take extreme pride in your team's frugality.

Many other fans view such extreme frugality by ownership as a lack of commitment to winning.

Were you alive during the Bruins' GM Harry Sinden era (pre-salary cap)?
Are you not aware of the ever-growing angst Red Sox fandom has with the tight-fisted ownership of their beloved Saux.

Do you live under a rock or in some kind of bubble?

Look I am not defending Kraft , but we should be thankful we don't have wasteful contracts like Watson, cousins etc.

Cherry picking another team's failure in order to defend Kraft's lack of spending is next level_____.

Last year contracts based on player performance are up for debate due to coaching or rather lack of ...

Due to coaching?

As an example:
Shuffling around Onwenu between RG and LT has little to do with coaching and everything to do with the failures of the Front Office and their "frugal" approach to the entire season, and not just at OL.
Management did next to nothing to improve upon what was considered one of the least talented rosters after the 2023 season.
And when 2024 started, NE's roster was considered the least talented.
News flash: STILL IS

But let's celebrate Kraft's frugality

I am confident once we start winning, Kraft will start to open purse strings

My favorite line of the new year! Thank you

To paraphrase your statement: If the teams wins, then Kraft will spend.

Coming off another 4 win season, does this mean we are looking to expand Kraft's 10 years of cheapness to 11 years?

to align with the rest of the league .

At least you admit Kraft's spending has not been aligned with the rest of the league.
So, we're not totally ignoring his 32nd ranking in spending

Baby steps forward....but still celebrating his frugality.

Patriots have 2nd highest brand equity

I feel warm and fuzzy all over.
Did management not inform Calvin Ridley of New England's spectacular "Q" rating ?

and Kraft is a billionaire

Yes, he is
And as lowest spender, I no doubt believe his wealth has accelerated the past 10 years.

and am sure he knows as a investor or shareholder when he needs to open up the purse

Tom Brady wonders about this one
Tampa opened the purse for Tom, 32% wider than Bob the Investor

But, as you suggest, Bob will eventually open his purse once the wins pile up

and when he needs to hold the purse strings tight.

Refer to past 10 years

Give another couple of years to look at spending trends and team state of affairs before we make conclusions .

10 years is not enough? Not seeing a pattern?
Make it 12

 

[Family]

Those of us around from the start know that he spent more money to buy the Patriots than any other team had sold for at that point in time.

He was openly ridiculed for spending so much for the crappy team with its crappy stadium.

The guy who owned it was gonna move the team, but Bob had him by the short and curlies and didn't let go.



Shrewd not cheap, says I.

Robert Kraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But Wozzy says Kraft's cheap because he served bologna sandwiches to the players when Carroll was coach.

 

[JohnJH]

That's not my understanding. The Krafts purchased them and they put them into a shell corporation. They sub-let them to others so they don't just sit idle when the Pats don't need them. They have a third party outfit operating and managing the aircraft for them since they aren't aviation gurus.

AirKraft: A Guide To The New England Patriots' Private Jets

The NFL team operates its own business jets.

simpleflying.com

I stand corrected. Most corporations, and even airlines, lease aircraft either directly from the manufacturer, or through an aircraft leasing company. I did know that the Kraft's lease out the aircraft to other parties to be used when the team doesn't require them. Even so, because they are under an LLC and are leased out when not in use, this is usually only possible due to tax breaks by having them placed under an LLC and their cost's also defrayed from leasing them. I'm a Pilot and have worked in the Flight Operations Departments of two Major Airlines. This does not mean that the Kraft's are not "Cheap", it just means that as most successful business people, they know how to use the system in-place to their advantage. And I'm not inferring that such is wrong. It's how business is done.

 

[Bill Lee]

In a vacuum, people will fill in the emptiness with what they believe is happening. It often tells you more about the people than what’s actually going on.

IMO "Kraft is cheap" is a lazy argument.

We've had a bad run of form and the problem MUST BE that he doesn't spend enough.

And of course there's not even a hint in antisemitism in beating that drum as hard as you can.

There's plenty of other things to blame him for, like sticking with BB too long, letting BB roll out MP+JJ as coordinators, swing and a miss with Mayo, etc.

Spending 19% more on players in such scenarios wouldn't change a thing, IMO.

As mentioned above over-spending on a FA QB like Watson alone would eat that difference and we've seen how that's gone for CLE.

We could have overpaid to have the corpse of Derrick Carr or the ******* Aaron Rodgers on our roster and we'd still suck.

Saving the cash and cap space for when things are on the upswing is shrewd, IMO.

 

[borg]

But Wozzy says Kraft's cheap because he served bologna sandwiches to the players when Carroll was coach.

And charged $5 for Solo cups of tap water

 

[Kdo5]

While I do believe the Krafts are cheap owners I’d like to believe they’ll do the right thing here and pay up to get the guy they want. The spotlight is very bright for them to get this one right.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

IMO "Kraft is cheap" is a lazy argument.

We've had a bad run of form and the problem MUST BE that he doesn't spend enough.

And of course there's not even a hint in antisemitism in beating that drum as hard as you can.

Bringing up religion and race, and @Family giving the post a Winner emoji, is disgusting and embarrassing. You guys are are total race baiters. Absolutely despicable.

 

[Bill Lee]

Bringing up religion and race, and @Family giving the post a Winner emoji, is disgusting and embarrassing. You guys are are total race baiters. Absolutely despicable.

And you're a denier. Wonderful. We can call each other names all day long. If you don't think antisemitism is a real thing in our area and our fan base, you gotta get out more, IMO. I certainly have heard people here in my town say some damn hateful things about Kraft, things Hitler would be comfortable saying. Glad you live in a pristine environment. I don't.