Content Post The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Love The Drake]

They are doing it right.
Not even bothering with Defense.
See Vrabels are kind of dinosaurs today.

Only way Johnson goes to Jacksonville is he loves the beach or Lawrence.

 

[n1997y]

Agree! Interview several guys. **** I don't want Rivera but he is an experienced guy who can give insight, interview Saleh get an idea from a former coach of a divisional rival, he may at a minimum help you get some insight on how those know you best view your team. Interview Chucky no reason not too. Add Liam Coen to that list, maybe Aaron Glenn (not big on bringing him in but get his input). Then figure it out from there. You can do that in a week, narrow it down to two or three cadidates and go from there. I mean if you only interview Johnson and Vrabel and one or worse both spurn you...then what? Your left scrambling. I hope there are more candidates they have already reached out to and they are waiting a response before announcing it.

Also interview them all for competitive intelligence. BB worked out a lot of players he had no intention of drafting, just so he’d know them better when they played against him. Same idea, see where everybody is strong, and where they are weak. Mplus you get their free consulting on how they see your team.

 

[raduray]

According to ChatGPT retread coaches have had a 57.6% win percentage versus 54.6% for newbie head coaches over their first five years. Not a significant difference.

 

[n1997y]

I think the final question has more moving parts that that. The culture each guy wants to build and how he gets there is a massive consideration. Bill was "Do your job. I am the brain." That worked for him. It even had potential to work over his last 4 years if he hired an actual coaching staff rather than using Judge and Matty P. Needless to say Bill failed the draft too many times to build a winning team. I think the culture by the end of his tenure was not sustainable with modern players.

On problem with Mayo was that he swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. He wanted to be the players friend. This is what people do in relationships. They seek the total opposite and it typically fails. Mayo called his team soft, and they were because Mayo is soft. He had poor discipline, structure, and communication. He acted like a bumbling fool on Sundays and had to fix it on Mondays. The way his players mouthed off was ridiculous towards the end. White, Tavai, the WRs, Godchaux.. The team gave up 147 rushing yards to the Chargers and Godchaux said they had a good game. How blind and stupid can you be? If you want to see a telling sign, watch Gonzo's presser yesterday. He was grinning the whole time talking about Mayo's firing. Granted, he is a quiet and happy type of guy, but it looked like more than that to me.

So here it is: What culture does Vrabel or BJ bring to the table?

Vrabel: He knows what is expected in the building. He was one of the hardest working players who knows "The Patriot Way" and can bring back the mentality if he walks through the front door. He is all abut hard work and discipline. That WR room is a whining mess. I would love to see him tell them to shut up and work. With all that comes a danger too. We do not want the next Bill who cannot relate to players. Brady and McD openly say Vrabel is an ahole. That can be good and bad. Vrabel has to have a dynamic OC to develop drake, and a total defensive scheme overhaul.

Johnson: He brings the modern offense, something this team has never seen. Every Pats fan wants to see Drake in that offense. The question is what would need to be done to get it to Detroit's level. A couple of draft picks isn't going to do it. 75% of the o-line needs to be replaced. The complete WR room with the exception of Boutte who is a 2-3 option needs to be replaced. What discipline and culture does Johnson bring to this team? We don't know and cannot assume its the same as Campbell. That dude is a unique personality and a beast. What Johnson is like is unknown.

You know what you are getting in Vrabel. That is the attraction for many.

Great post. I think you nailed it in your summaries, except you stopped a bit short on Johnson. Your point about culture is spot on. But you didn’t focus enough on the need for a total roster overhaul. It’s more than “A couple of draft picks isn't going to do it”. It’s whether a neophyte HC can get the players he needs in an organization with no GM (presently) or a new GM, *WHILE ALSO COACHING A TEAM IN SHAMBLES*. Thats a really big risk factor, especially for an inexperienced HC who will be learning on the job. Just like his predecessor.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm not sure if you're advocating for keeping the coach over the GM or the GM over the coach or not?

I don't believe in force marriages and either does Vrabel.

The Jaguars fire their coach but they kept the GM which is stupid because they're going to be firing him next year anyway. It's all about cost savings.

My point was that Strunk hired a moron for a GM that Vrabel took exception to because she passed over his recommendation. Then she cans him after realizing he was a moron after all but keeps the HC he helped her hire. It seems Vrabel's "friction" with Tennessee's ownership/front office had some justification.

Ideally, of course, HC and GM need to be on the same page regardless of however they come together.

 

[lancerman]

According to ChatGPT retread coaches have had a 57.6% win percentage versus 54.6% for newbie head coaches over their first five years. Not a significant difference.

Yup people keep talking about risks. But the truth is it's not any different.

 

[imahobgoblin]

Great post. I think you nailed it in your summaries, except you stopped a bit short on Johnson. Your point about culture is spot on. But you didn’t focus enough on the need for a total roster overhaul. It’s more than “A couple of draft picks isn't going to do it”. It’s whether a neophyte HC can get the players he needs in an organization with no GM (presently) or a new GM, *WHILE ALSO COACHING A TEAM IN SHAMBLES*. Thats a really big risk factor, especially for an inexperienced HC who will be learning on the job. Just like his predecessor.

I admittedly did stop short on Johnson. I just don't know him. I have seen a few Lions games and then heard that he interviewed poorly with the Bears. Neither those are fair evaluations of the man.

 

[Love The Drake]

I admittedly did stop short on Johnson. I just don't know him. I have seen a few Lions games and then heard that he interviewed poorly with the Bears. Neither those are fair evaluations of the man.

where did you hear he interviewed poorly with the Bears?
Is that this hiring cycle?

 

[PScottman]

Most coaches are average to above average and then hit the jackpot on a player or 2 on O and D

An excellent summary of the combination being the thing versus one or the other which isn't reflective of reality. Teams, including their staffs, win championships - great players, great coaching, great administration (including. scouting and development).

 

[RobertWeathers]

I admittedly did stop short on Johnson. I just don't know him. I have seen a few Lions games and then heard that he interviewed poorly with the Bears. Neither those are fair evaluations of the man.

In my experience, when executives interview poorly they are either unprepared or are not good at communicating. Doesn't mean they can't do a good job.

As I said in another post, I want to understand what "poorly" means in the context of Johnson interviewing.

 

[RobertWeathers]

where did you hear he interviewed poorly with the Bears?
Is that this hiring cycle?

It was with WASH. Not sure I buy all of it but it needs to be understood better. Christ look at BB....

"I don’t think he interviewed particularly well … I don’t think he really bowled people over in the interview process at all. And I’ve heard that his personality, you know, he’s very smart, very bright, a great play-caller, but I’ve heard that his personality is kind of…..not the most gregarious guy. Not a Mike Macdonald-type guy or even a Dan Quinn-type guy, so I think that came across in the interview process."

The Charleston, SC native, who has been rumored to struggle with interpersonal communication, largely failed to impress his Washington suitors. In fact, he may have trailed at least three other candidates at the time of his decision to return to Detroit — including Quinn.

NFL Insider Suggests Lions' Ben Johnson Flubbed Commanders Interview

Despite being one of the NFL’s hottest commodities during the recent coaching carousel, Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson will remain the team, instead of joining the Washington Commanders.

www.si.com

 

[raduray]

I’m not sure I agree. Vrabel has been around much longer than Johnson so he has a much broader network.

I’m afraid that with Johnson moving up from OC to HC he will bring in a former subordinate instead of hiring one of the peers he was competing with when he was OC. So then we end up with a first year HC and a first year OC. Much greater risk of failure.

Why would a successful OC want to leave their existing team to be Ben's OC in New England? I think either way, we'll have a newbie OC or a rethread who's currently out of a job. With Ben as HC you have a successful OC who can mentor a newbie OC. That's a strong argument for Johnson. This is one factor that must be considered. Vrabel has his own strengths.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Johnson is going to Chicago and Vrabel to the Pats. Jets new coach is . . .

Please give a warm welcome to DeMarcus Covington as the new HC of the New York Jets!

 

[n1997y]

In my experience, when executives interview poorly they are either unprepared or are not good at communicating. Doesn't mean they can't do a good job.

As I said in another post, I want to understand what "poorly" means in the context of Johnson interviewing.

If the job has communicating as a key skill interviewing poorly because of not being good at communicating would in fact mean they can’t do a good job. Just saying.

It’s an identifiable risk factor.

 

[BUSTAMOVE]

You realize he barely has a winning record right?

He's essentially a .500 coach.

Vrabel will bring law and order but what else is he bringing? He certainly isn't bringing any evidence that he knows a thing or two about QB play.

Vrabel thus far is who he is. He wins a game he loses a game. He makes the playoffs he misses the playoffs.

Maybe you're ok with that because the last 5 years have sucked but let's keep expectations in order here. We're not getting a world class coach. We're getting a serviceable coach.

I like both candidates but leaning Vrabel
I am weighing all pro's and con's
too your comment
Vrabel does have a winning record.
BJ has No record. After this last nightmare. That's important. I've seen many rising star coordinators fizzle out as HC's
Vrabel brings Toughness, in game adjustments, on field coaching, Experience as HC. Yes 55% HC record
BJ. Great Offensive mind. Successful (but has had a loaded Offense) but only as a OC.
Yes Offense is not Vrabel's Forte. Defense is not BJ's forte. That is a wash
Lets say Vrabel is a serviceable HC. you know that up front. He may become better second time around learning from mistakes
BJ is a mystery. He could be great but may nosedive.
As I said I would be fine with BJ. But the way I see it I prefer Vrabel

 

[RobertWeathers]

It was with WASH. Not sure I buy all of it but it needs to be understood better. Christ look at BB....

NFL Insider Suggests Lions' Ben Johnson Flubbed Commanders Interview

Despite being one of the NFL’s hottest commodities during the recent coaching carousel, Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson will remain the team, instead of joining the Washington Commanders.

www.si.com

Now to be fair and balanced....

NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reported Tuesday that Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson told the Commanders and Seattle Seahawks he was staying put instead of pursuing a head-coaching opportunity with one of their teams.

ESPN's Jenna Laine provided more background for the Washington decision and noted Johnson was "turned off" by the team's ownership, which he viewed as "basketball guys" who were "a little too confident in their football opinions."

NFL Rumors: Ben Johnson Saw Commanders Execs as 'Basketball Guys,' Was 'Turned Off'

Josh Harris was already the governor of the Philadelphia 76ers when he led a group that purchased the Washington Commanders, and that basketball background…

bleacherreport.com

 

[Toofy]

Prior to us getting Maye and seeing him in the NFL.
I don’t think he would be taking the interview with us if the pendulum couldn’t swing either way.
Very well could be Chi Town but it could just as well be us.
He has a much easier task here in New England. We only have the Bills as a threat.
The North is absolutely stacked.

Besides it's same division and it might not be good from optics and meeting the team twice a year as opponent. Add to that super hard division . If talent gets added and Maye takes the LEP by year 3 of maye we might have leapfrogged bills to take pole position.

I feel Johnson wants us more than Kraft wants Jonathan . Hope he aces interview.

 

[n1997y]

Now to be fair and balanced....

NFL Rumors: Ben Johnson Saw Commanders Execs as 'Basketball Guys,' Was 'Turned Off'

Josh Harris was already the governor of the Philadelphia 76ers when he led a group that purchased the Washington Commanders, and that basketball background…

bleacherreport.com

Johnson’s negative comments about the Washington front office have aged well, considering that they turned around a 4-13 team last year to a 12-5 playoff team this year.

 

[ViperGTS]

The Pats didn't fire Mayo so they can hire Vrabel. Vrabel isn't signing anytime soon, so firing Mayo Sunday night was because he needed to be fired.

Why wait? There was no reason to. I am not even certain Vrabel is the guy anyways.

 

[Love The Drake]

Johnson’s negative comments about the Washington front office have aged well, considering that they turned around a 4-13 team last year to a 12-5 playoff team this year.

Yeah I was thinking he’d prefer not to have that in print.