[Mod Edit] MusketFire article says Vrabel might coach OSU based on Orlovsky smile

[Pape]

You listed two years he didn't make the playoffs and had losing records.

The only 3 years he ever won the team was loaded to the gills. If that's what he needs to go one and done twice and only win playoffs in one years, then he's not the coach for this team

dude, you asked why he didnt win, especially the 6 win season - There is your answer.

Going to keep trying to move the goalpost?

And the teams were good teams. They weren't "loaded to the gills"

Brady went to a team that was "loaded to the gills". The titans were never in the same league talent wise. They were never considered serious contenders to compete for the lombardi trophy.

No matter how many times / how many ways you say "loaded with talent", it does not make it true. Its not. They were competitive. But the titans never had rosters stuffed with top tier talent.

What they did have was a roster who reflected their coach, who played hard, and smart, football.

Thats what I want here. Thats what we need here. Hard hitting & Smart football - not this soft ass **** we have going on now.

Maybe he is, Maybe he isn't the next Belichick-type coach who will be here for 15-20 odd years. I don't know, no one does. What I can say for certain is the guy we got now isn't "that" guy.

 

[Huckleberry1]

If his only success is on incredibly loaded teams and he is trash when the team starts losing worldclass talent, you have to question that.

Vrabel walks on this team he is going to be in the worst situation of his career. Worse than when he won 6 games. How much better do you think he is going to do?

I don’t consider having Ryan Tannehill at QB is loaded. He had a good season but he’s never been a great QB. He had some good talent and some good seasons. The real question is how much he develops as a HC in his next job. Belichick had a similar experience at Cleveland and became the GOAT in N.E. I’m not saying that Vrabel will be the next GOAT, but he’s got a really high football IQ and could very well turn into a very good HC.

 

[Ring 6]

I don’t consider having Ryan Tannehill at QB is loaded. He had a good season but he’s never been a great QB. He had some good talent and some good seasons. The real question is how much he develops as a HC in his next job. Belichick had a similar experience at Cleveland and became the GOAT in N.E. I’m not saying that Vrabel will be the next GOAT, but he’s got a really high football IQ and could very well turn into a very good HC.

He had a good RB while he was there. But you also have to note that RB was not what he was before Vrabel got there never even having a 1000 yard season.
Otherwise he had a pretty average team without ever having a top QB and because he won each year a couple of players made the pro bowl. It was never a loaded team that’s a bs argument that holds no water.

 

[turkeyneck]

I don’t consider having Ryan Tannehill at QB is loaded. He had a good season but he’s never been a great QB. He had some good talent and some good seasons. The real question is how much he develops as a HC in his next job. Belichick had a similar experience at Cleveland and became the GOAT in N.E. I’m not saying that Vrabel will be the next GOAT, but he’s got a really high football IQ and could very well turn into a very good HC.

If, in first go 'round, Tanny is to Vrabes as Vinny was to BB, then in 2nd go 'round, could Maye be to Vrabel as Brady was to BB?

 

[Huckleberry1]

If, in first go 'round, Tanny is to Vrabes as Vinny was to BB, then in 2nd go 'round, could Maye be to Vrabel as Brady was to BB?

That would depend entirely upon Vrabel getting a first class OC, who can take Nate’s development to the highest level.

 

[lancerman]

dude, you asked why he didnt win, especially the 6 win season - There is your answer.

Going to keep trying to move the goalpost?

And the teams were good teams. They weren't "loaded to the gills"

Brady went to a team that was "loaded to the gills". The titans were never in the same league talent wise. They were never considered serious contenders to compete for the lombardi trophy.

No matter how many times / how many ways you say "loaded with talent", it does not make it true. Its not. They were competitive. But the titans never had rosters stuffed with top tier talent.

What they did have was a roster who reflected their coach, who played hard, and smart, football.

Thats what I want here. Thats what we need here. Hard hitting & Smart football - not this soft ass **** we have going on now.

Maybe he is, Maybe he isn't the next Belichick-type coach who will be here for 15-20 odd years. I don't know, no one does. What I can say for certain is the guy we got now isn't "that" guy.

That's not moving the goal posts, that's missing the point entirely on your end. He only won when he had a stacked team. He lost badly when he didn't. Why do you think that he would win on the worst roster in the league?

It's a fallacy to just go "well he's better than Mayo so we might as well try him". That's the same mindset as the people who were screaming for Zappe to replace Mac and Stidham to replace Cam. It's just desperation forcing action.

They did not have a roster who reflected their coach. He had 6 seasons there and 3 of them they did not make the playoffs. The three years they did they were incredibly talented. You can downplay it all you want but it is an extreme minority opinion in NFL circles.

You are dying on the hill of a guy who had every advantage those 3 years and only could win playoff games in one season out of 6. There's a reason he got fired. There's a reason Titans fans were in full support of it,. There's a reason he didn't get a job last year. There's a reason no other opening in the league is saying he's a hot target. It's only the Patriots because there is a connection from when he was a player and because he learned under a former OC.


They need an open process and look for someone who can be the coach of 2025/6 and forward. Not some guy who is familiar and related to an old regime because he beat a ****ty 2019 Pats team in the playoffs and fans and the front office know who he is.

 

[TheRainMaker]

If I only had a choice between Vrabel and Mayo, I’ll take Vrabel.

But Josh McDaniels needs to stay far away from NE. The guy is bad news. And it will be a complete disaster if ends up in Chicago coaching Williams.

 

[lancerman]

If I only had a choice between Vrabel and Mayo, I’ll take Vrabel.

But Josh McDaniels needs to stay far away from NE. The guy is bad news. And it will be a complete disaster if ends up in Chicago coaching Williams.

Yup if it was a binary choice I would take Vrabel. But it's not and it's stupid to zone in on him because

1. Pats fans are gun shy over not getting a former HC. 6 of the 8 division leaders this year are guys who are on their first team as a HC and didn't have HC experience prior.

2. There's a ton of talent and people with forward thinking minds that should be looked at and considered.

3. The worst thing the Pats did when hiring Mayo was getting rid of Belichick and still wanting someone familiar and comfortable to lead things instead of ripping off the bandaid and starting over. Vrabel is represents the path of least resistance. He's comfortable, he learned under a Belichick guy, he's more of the same. If you want that, hire BOB or Belichick as HC again.

 

[Pape]

That's not moving the goal posts, that's missing the point entirely on your end. He only won when he had a stacked team. He lost badly when he didn't. Why do you think that he would win on the worst roster in the league?

It is absolutely moving the goal posts.
Just the ability to make in game adjustments would end up with a better overall record.

It's a fallacy to just go "well he's better than Mayo so we might as well try him". That's the same mindset as the people who were screaming for Zappe to replace Mac and Stidham to replace Cam. It's just desperation forcing action.

Wtf man... now adding red herrings to the mix with equating coaches with players? Oh brother...

And its a fallacy to state he's better than Mayo? Dude as far as I know he has a winning record in the NFL.
as for Fallac ... I dont think that word means what you think it means.

They did not have a roster who reflected their coach. He had 6 seasons there and 3 of them they did not make the playoffs. The three years they did they were incredibly talented. You can downplay it all you want but it is an extreme minority opinion in NFL circles.

Flat out wrong.

You are dying on the hill of a guy who had every advantage those 3 years and only could win playoff games in one season out of 6.

I am not dying on any hill. Hard to "die on a hill" when I'm right. I apologize in advance for this, but you look like a fool trying to use every trick in the book to lend credence to your "argument" which basically consists of repeating until people think its true "stacked roster" "loaded roster" "loaded with talent". Again just because you say it does not mean its true.

 

[lancerman]

It is absolutely moving the goal posts.
Just the ability to make in game adjustments would end up with a better overall record.


Wtf man... now adding red herrings to the mix with equating coaches with players? Oh brother...

And its a fallacy to state he's better than Mayo? Dude as far as I know he has a winning record in the NFL.
as for Fallac ... I dont think that word means what you think it means.

Flat out wrong.

I am not dying on any hill. Hard to "die on a hill" when I'm right. I apologize in advance for this, but you look like a fool trying to use every trick in the book to lend credence to your "argument" which basically consists of repeating until people think its true "stacked roster" "loaded roster" "loaded with talent". Again just because you say it does not mean its true.

It's not moving the goal posts when it's literally been my argument the whole time. He won 3 out of 6 years. Those 3 years his team was stacked. When he stopped, it was when the team lost key players.

That's also not a red herring. Learn what that phrase means before you use it.

YES it's logical fallacy to say one thing isn't working so we definitely should go all in on this other guy when we have options. It's ****ing stupid to say "oh Vrabel has a winning record" when pretty much any coach in the league would have winning records with the team he won on.

Again, if you don't think it was a stacked roster it's a minority opinion that the VAST majority of NFL fans and Pro Bowl/All PRo voters would disagree with and is really just cushioning that you don't want to acknowledge that he highly benefitted from having a loaded team. But it's not reality. He won when he was carried by his talent. When his players ditched him he lost.

As someone who watched every game the 2019 and 2020 Titans played because I wasn't living in New England, it's pretty obvious you only watched a handful of primetime games during his tenure and don't really know what went on there. There's a reason Titans fans were happy to see him shown the door. He was a headcase and he was carried by a talented roster. I'll turn it around on you, you can keep saying it wasn't loaded, most NFL fans and most people that vote on talent for awards clearly disagree with you no matter how much you say it's not true.

 

[Ring 6]

1. Pats fans are gun shy over not getting a former HC. 6 of the 8 division leaders this year are guys who are on their first team as a HC and didn't have HC experience prior.

More fuzzy (or disingenuous) math.

By my count there are 6 HCs on their second or greater job and 26 on their first job

2/6 veterans HCs lead their division (33%)
6/26 first timers lead their division (23%)

2 more would be wild cards as of now so 4/6, 67% of vets would be in the playoffs
10/26 first timers would be in the playoffs now (38%)

Of the 10 teams with 5 or fewer wins 9 have first time head coaches so 1/6 ,17% veterans are failing miserably while 9/26 35% of first time HC are.

 

[Vindicate]

We used to **** on Bowles relentlessly when he coached the Jets. Now he looks great with the right roster.

He's a good DC, even Bill praised him. As HC he's a little rough around the edges. Not sure what his hiccups are as I don't really watch him. Although he did call that zero blitz in Brady's last season that basically led to his retirement lmao.

The original context of the post was "we'll win games once we get a better roster, look at Bucs in 2020" and I was trying to point out that their coaches are simply much better.

 

[Vindicate]

It's not moving the goal posts when it's literally been my argument the whole time. He won 3 out of 6 years. Those 3 years his team was stacked. When he stopped, it was when the team lost key players.

That's also not a red herring. Learn what that phrase means before you use it.

YES it's logical fallacy to say one thing isn't working so we definitely should go all in on this other guy when we have options. It's ****ing stupid to say "oh Vrabel has a winning record" when pretty much any coach in the league would have winning records with the team he won on.

Again, if you don't think it was a stacked roster it's a minority opinion that the VAST majority of NFL fans and Pro Bowl/All PRo voters would disagree with and is really just cushioning that you don't want to acknowledge that he highly benefitted from having a loaded team. But it's not reality. He won when he was carried by his talent. When his players ditched him he lost.

As someone who watched every game the 2019 and 2020 Titans played because I wasn't living in New England, it's pretty obvious you only watched a handful of primetime games during his tenure and don't really know what went on there. There's a reason Titans fans were happy to see him shown the door. He was a headcase and he was carried by a talented roster. I'll turn it around on you, you can keep saying it wasn't loaded, most NFL fans and most people that vote on talent for awards clearly disagree with you no matter how much you say it's not true.

Very importantly, they had an OL that was very good at running the offense they needed to run. Great, great run blocking that led Henry to multiple thousand yard seasons, including a 2,000 yard season.

Oddly enough, they were pretty garbage at pass pro. Pretty sure in 2021 they were almost the worst. But their run blocking was so good it made up for it.

Vrabel's development of that team shined on defense, and, in the opposite, was lackluster on offense as his tenure pushed on. Growing tensions between him and the GM didn't help and Vrabel wouldnt let go of a staff to a fault at times.

These are all valid reasons to be adverse to Vrabel. I understand why people like him, but I think you're gonna get a lot of middle-of-the-league seasons and just float with him. Who knows, I could be wrong. But if people are clamouring a full break from this defensive-minded style we've had for so long, Vrabel ain't it.

He, obviously, would be a huge upgrade over Mayo as it stands right now. That doesn't mean I want to chase him.

 

[stcjones]

I don’t want Josh MacDaniels and a return to the Erhardt-Perkins offense.

I agree but it has to be better than AVP…..heck Patricia and Judge were slightly better than AVP

 

[Huckleberry1]

I agree but it has to be better than AVP…..heck Patricia and Judge were slightly better than AVP

Disagree with that, AVP isn’t a good play caller but he’s done a good job with Maye, Patricia and Judge would have destroyed him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I agree but it has to be better than AVP…..heck Patricia and Judge were slightly better than AVP

I agree that they need to get a great OC.

 

[stcjones]

Disagree with that, AVP isn’t a good play caller but he’s done a good job with Maye, Patricia and Judge would have destroyed him.

McD actually did a great job with Mac his rookie year….i think Maye is a unique and incredible talent that would have progressed with most OC….if he gets a really good OL, some weapons and and even better more creative OC (ie Ben Johnson HC)….Look out!!!!!

 

[Huckleberry1]

McD actually did a great job with Mac his rookie year….i think Maye is a unique and incredible talent that would have progressed with most OC….if he gets a really good OL, some weapons and and even better more creative OC (ie Ben Johnson HC)….Look out!!!!!

I agree on McD, but I don’t want them going back to the EP offense.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

The defense was heading for a fall. The best players were either getting older (not more experienced) or were injured/cut. I saw warning signs last year.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Vrabel although an obvious upgrade over Mayo would just be another guy with Patriots ties hired without going thru a detailed coach and GM search and learning how other organizations are operating and hearing people's ideas for the future.

The only reason they were able to hire Mayo without a search is that they communicated the plan ahead of time to the league offices. If they fire Mayo, unless they already specified one of his underlings as his successor (which I doubt), they would have to conduct a proper search compliant with the Rooney rule.