PostGame Thread 2024 Preseason Game One: Patriots Win 17-3 over Carolina

[upstater1]

It seems to me that the o-line has never really been addressed since Bradys last year, and even in 2019 it wasn't
very good. Scars not here to make chicken salad out chicken **** anymore.

You'd be astounded at the number of picks we've spent on OL.

If somebody told me we've spent more than anyone else, I wouldn't doubt it.

2018: 1st
2019: 3rd + 4th
2020: 6th + 6th + 7th
2021: 6th
2022: 1st + 6th + 7th
2023: 4th + 4th + 5th
2024: 3rd + 4th

This is quite a considerable amount of resources spent to end up with Mike Onwenu and maybe Sidy Sow.

Cole Strange is hurt but I think he's a talent. Hjalte Froholdt is a decent starting guard. Isaiah Wynn was a bust for us but a decent starter for Miami.

Layden Robinson, Caeden Wallace and now Jake Andrews are huge question marks.

Mafi looks to be going the way of Hines & Herron.

Cajuste an outright bust.

It's not that we haven't expended resources on the interior of the line. We have.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Zappe is in a difficult situation. He was available to all teams last year with no takers, so there seems to be little value in trying to showcase him again. My take is that after getting QB1 and QB2 a series, the coaches dedicated the first half to evaluating other parts of the offense. Zappe being a known commodity was a safe way to do that without risking anything.

Prioritize everyone above the QB? It's smells bad that brissette and maybe got so little time. This offense needs as much practice as possible. Bb dud this approach not playing Mac in preseason and look where that led

 

[Brick27]

Anyone got a link to snap counts for this?

 

[PScottman]

I'll go against the grain and continue to agree with the sit Maye for the season approach. There are just too many examples of the training year benefitting the player over the longer term than not in the NFL.

While there are some outliers of "experience" success by these high QB picks getting shellacked in their first year playing from day one then mentally being able to "golf" approach their brain to forget all that; the vast majority of high pick QBs just internalize those bad habits, the yips caused by &^%$ OLs in front of them speeding up their clock causing poor decisions, etc.

It's simply us impatient fans that refuse to even consider that. WE WANT OUR SATISFACTION NOW! Damn the player's actual development of good habits, good fundamentals, and the pro game writ large. They're a high pick dang it and that means automatically their physical skills will simply overcome all of the other things they have to learn to be successful.

Patience, historically, melds the physical gifts with pro fundamentals and understanding. It adds system integration where decisions become more of the learned and natural kind through rote repetition in practice where mistakes don't lead to a blindside sack destroying your rhythm and confidence and causing hesitation and doubt.

 

[archstanton543]

You'd be astounded at the number of picks we've spent on OL.

If somebody told me we've spent more than anyone else, I wouldn't doubt it.

2018: 1st
2019: 3rd + 4th
2020: 6th + 6th + 7th
2021: 6th
2022: 1st + 6th + 7th
2023: 4th + 4th + 5th
2024: 3rd + 4th

This is quite a considerable amount of resources spent to end up with Mike Onwenu and maybe Sidy Sow.

Cole Strange is hurt but I think he's a talent. Hjalte Froholdt is a decent starting guard. Isaiah Wynn was a bust for us but a decent starter for Miami.

Layden Robinson, Caeden Wallace and now Jake Andrews are huge question marks.

Mafi looks to be going the way of Hines & Herron.

Cajuste an outright bust.

It's not that we haven't expended resources on the interior of the line. We have.

Strange is a bust but other than that I agree with you.

The Rams were right to laugh at BB for taking him.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Strange is a bust but other than that I agree with you.

The Rams were right to laugh at BB for taking him.

I don't think Strange is a bust, he's a talented athletic guy who's had bad injury luck. He better be back soon though, or his injury history will make him a bust.

 

[sb1]

Isaiah Wynn was a bust for us but a decent starter for Miami.

I’d hold off on calling him that. Didn’t make it even a half season before an injury that put him out for the season and there are still questions out of Miami on when he will return.

 

[reflexblue]

You'd be astounded at the number of picks we've spent on OL.

If somebody told me we've spent more than anyone else, I wouldn't doubt it.

2018: 1st
2019: 3rd + 4th
2020: 6th + 6th + 7th
2021: 6th
2022: 1st + 6th + 7th
2023: 4th + 4th + 5th
2024: 3rd + 4th

This is quite a considerable amount of resources spent to end up with Mike Onwenu and maybe Sidy Sow.

Cole Strange is hurt but I think he's a talent. Hjalte Froholdt is a decent starting guard. Isaiah Wynn was a bust for us but a decent starter for Miami.

Layden Robinson, Caeden Wallace and now Jake Andrews are huge question marks.

Mafi looks to be going the way of Hines & Herron.

Cajuste an outright bust.

It's not that we haven't expended resources on the interior of the line. We have.

I would say 11 of those picks are mid to low rounders, and like i said the team doesn't have scarnecchia as the o-line coach to take these jags and turn them into top notch lineman. Just because the team drafted a lot of players at this position doesn't mean they're addressing it. What they've done is put quantity over quality. We've been watching this movie for five years, the o-line can't protect the qb.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

Not a great game by Mafi. Raw but he needs to be better than he was tonight

he better get into Mafia mode

 

[jeremy2020]

I'll go against the grain and continue to agree with the sit Maye for the season approach. There are just too many examples of the training year benefitting the player over the longer term than not in the NFL.

While there are some outliers of "experience" success by these high QB picks getting shellacked in their first year playing from day one then mentally being able to "golf" approach their brain to forget all that; the vast majority of high pick QBs just internalize those bad habits, the yips caused by &^%$ OLs in front of them speeding up their clock causing poor decisions, etc.

It's simply us impatient fans that refuse to even consider that. WE WANT OUR SATISFACTION NOW! Damn the player's actual development of good habits, good fundamentals, and the pro game writ large. They're a high pick dang it and that means automatically their physical skills will simply overcome all of the other things they have to learn to be successful.

Patience, historically, melds the physical gifts with pro fundamentals and understanding. It adds system integration where decisions become more of the learned and natural kind through rote repetition in practice where mistakes don't lead to a blindside sack destroying your rhythm and confidence and causing hesitation and doubt.

There's a ton of data that says it doesn't help either. For like 40+ years, it was the norm to sit QBs and the "hit rate" wasn't any better.

Each situation should be approached with the players, coaches and team around them in mind.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

How about a sinister theory about why Zappe got so much playing time? Maybe they were experimenting with the OL and wanted to put an "expendable" QB behind that line....OK, that is whacked but I had to put it out there. I am suspect they were trying to showcase him for a trade....did not work out so sell did it?

Well, hmmm, based on Mayo's comments, it seems as I was right the right track, although Mayo did not frame it the way I did. He did not come right out and say that Zappe was expendable, only a paranoid type like me would frame it thus, but it seems that the leaky OL was the reason.

 

[mgteich]

I would say 11 of those picks are mid to low rounders, and like i said the team doesn't have scarnecchia as the o-line coach to take these jags and turn them into top notch lineman. Just because the team drafted a lot of players at this position doesn't mean they're addressing it. What they've done is put quantity over quality. We've been watching this movie for five years, the o-line can't protect the qb.

So, let's see where we start with new regime.

Coaching at OL is hugely important. We do need to have an ongoing group of 7 OL's that can protect the QB and facilitate the run game.

Thankfully, the good news is that the coaching bar is extremely low. We will see. There may need to be more coaching changes at Ol in the next couple for years. But we start with coaches on the same page.

GUARDS
IMO, we have a very good set of guards which should serve for awhile. We have Onwenu, Robinson, Sow and Strange.

CENTER
We have our starter for 2024 and 2025. This position needs help. Even for 2024, we have a hole at backup center. Perhaps Jordan can be the man or Leverett.

#6 IOL - EMERGENCY CENTER AND GUARD
We have Leveritt, a good replacement for Ferenz. This is a bottom of the roster position, but useful to have filled.
===============
TACKLES
We started 2024 with almost nothing: Lowe, McDermott and Wheatly (plus Onwenu that we wanted to move back to RG). This is by far our three weakest positions: LG, RT and swing.

I submit that we are much better with Okorafor, Anderson and Wallace (and possibly Lowe).

We've used a 3rd for Wallace, hopefully a part of the playoff run mix at one of the three OT positions.
===================
BOTTOM LINE
For the future, we need two OT's and a C.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I turned it off close to half time. I did not tune in to watch Zappe throw to the flat on every pass attempt. The coaching staff looks amateur, the all blue uniforms look terrible, the roster is as bad as advertised and it's mind boggling that anyone would think they will do better than last year. Mayo and his posse are in for a rude awakening against Burrow and the Bengals. I want Ashley back for the gameday threads because they will be epic!

 

[Stu Pidassle]

I turned it off close to half time. I did not tune in to watch Zappe throw to the flat on every pass attempt. The coaching staff looks amateur, the all blue uniforms look terrible, the roster is as bad as advertised and it's mind boggling that anyone would think they will do better than last year. Mayo and his posse are in for a rude awakening against Burrow and the Bengals. I want Ashley back for the gameday threads because they will be epic!

Except for that, how was the rest of the play Mrs. Lincoln? LOL. New coach, new QB, rebuilding roster, this year will be bumpy. The last few years of suck in the preseason that evolved to bigger suck in the regular season has conditioned everyone to think the worst. It will be a long year, be prepared to celebrate the little things.

 

[upstater1]

I would say 11 of those picks are mid to low rounders, and like i said the team doesn't have scarnecchia as the o-line coach to take these jags and turn them into top notch lineman. Just because the team drafted a lot of players at this position doesn't mean they're addressing it. What they've done is put quantity over quality. We've been watching this movie for five years, the o-line can't protect the qb.

Most good guards are drafted in the middle rounds. But I'd still note we've spent 2 1sts, 2 3rds, and 4 4ths.

 

[upstater1]

Strange is a bust but other than that I agree with you.

The Rams were right to laugh at BB for taking him.

He played well last year. You're underrating him

 

[upstater1]

I don't think Strange is a bust, he's a talented athletic guy who's had bad injury luck. He better be back soon though, or his injury history will make him a bust.

It's not even what I would call a history. He had a sprain in camp and came right back in to start the season. Didn't really miss time. Played the whole year prior to that. The one injury he currently has is a potential career ender.

But he started 17 of 17 his 1st year, then 10 out of 13 his second year, before the PCL injury.

Essentially, he was 27 for 30 until the PCL. That's not bad at all.

 

[upstater1]

Got to coach better, got to execute better...oh wait that was last seasons post game pressers. Sure as hell won't miss those.

who cares about press conferences? Only in New England are fans hung up on those.

 

[mgteich]

You'd be astounded at the number of picks we've spent on OL.

If somebody told me we've spent more than anyone else, I wouldn't doubt it.

2018: 1st
2019: 3rd + 4th
2020: 6th + 6th + 7th
2021: 6th
2022: 1st + 6th + 7th
2023: 4th + 4th + 5th
2024: 3rd + 4th

This is quite a considerable amount of resources spent to end up with Mike Onwenu and maybe Sidy Sow.

Cole Strange is hurt but I think he's a talent. Hjalte Froholdt is a decent starting guard. Isaiah Wynn was a bust for us but a decent starter for Miami.

Layden Robinson, Caeden Wallace and now Jake Andrews are huge question marks.

Mafi looks to be going the way of Hines & Herron.

Cajuste an outright bust.

It's not that we haven't expended resources on the interior of the line. We have.

I look at it a bit differently. I then to focus on the first four rounds. Later have low probability of making being long term studs. I also separate IOLs from OT's.
==============
LET"S LOOK AT IOL's IN THE LAST SEVEN DRAFTS (2019-2024)
1) There has been ONE draftee in the first four rounds. He was an OK starter before being injured.
2) There have been TEN draft choices in rounds 4-7.
3) Out of the ten later round draft choices, I would rate Onwenu and Sow as successes (top starter, and a top rookie OL and starter). Incompletes should be given to Robinson, Jake, and Mafi although Jake was #2 center and potential starter until his injury.
4) BOTTOM LINE: Other than Strange not being worth a first, I think that we have done as we should expect. We have used late round draft picks to find our IOL's.
========================
LET US LOOK AT OT'S DRAFTED
1) IMO, we haven't used anywhere near enough resources drafting OT's. Quality starters are much more likely found in the early rounds.
2) Drafting Wynn and Cajuste over six drafts is just not enough to fill three OT's positions will solid players.
3) Wallace is a question mark. As a 3rd, we "should" expect to have maybe a 50% chance of getting a quality contributor. The result is TBD, but I suspect that he will be our RT starter or swing OT as a rookie. I expect that in his second year, he will be solid as at least a swing OT, OK for a 3rd round draftee. My hope is that he is our RT starter for the next four years, making him the best OT drafted in the time period we are examining.

 

[PScottman]

For like 40+ years

I'm not talking 40+ years - I'm talking modern era where there is so much tape, the players come out younger, and the pressures are astronomical for instant gratification across the team, coach, and player for immediate gratification. We see it over and over again in not just QBs in fact - the vast majority of players are not immediate plug and play but instead have an adjustment period of one to even multiple years before they begin to deliver on their physical and mental potential. Maybe it has to do with no "farm system" - sure college is sort of that, but less so because college isn't about player development - it's specialization and maximization of physical gifts and win now because they will likely lose great players immediately to the NFL.

Sure, there a lots of examples of the opposite but its because of the sample size - the results will always be on a bell curve. Lastly, the odds in today's 'everyone gets injured' NFL game of Maye playing anyway are probably 100% so this would be moot circumstantially, but he might get 4-5 weeks of development instead of none behind a ^%$# OL (which itself might be marginally better because of the same development time or at least total failure spots like LT could be bolstered by scheme such as TE and RB chipping).

I get this is recency bias somewhat. Jones went from bad to colossally bad because the OL sucked too - his decision making collapsed entirely because he didn't want to get crushed as we had turnstiles in front of him. I don't want that to happen to Maye where despite his physical tools he has zero confidence and starts getting bad habits ingrained. The Patriots OL blows...let's not let that infect another high value asset.