PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Monday Patriots Training Camp Thread 7/29

[Ring 6]

I can’t believe you think state income tax is not a significant factor.

It’s not if you offer more. When you are a 4 win team with the worst offense in the league, you offer more. Or you stay bad.

 

[AQPE]

Doing what they did this offseason leaves little doubt in my mind that they didn't believe that spending it all could elevate them to a playoff team this season. For a STH that sucks but I can see the logic in not getting tied down on a long term basis to an expensive guy just to get to the middle of the pack. So they’re playing this as a bridge year, have some hold down the fort guys on defense to avoid getting blown out every week.

That’s why I’m 100% OK with them trading Judon, Hunter Henry, guys like that if there’s a market, load up with cash to spend and a couple good extra picks next year and hope they’re in a position to get a top end LT prospect next spring.

 

[n1997y]

It’s not if you offer more. When you are a 4 win team with the worst offense in the league, you offer more. Or you stay bad.

It’s both. And you end up out of the running as a result.

 

[Ring 6]

It’s both. And you end up out of the running as a result.

They lost out to Tennessee. They could have paid more. But that’s just one player. There were DOZENS they could have signed and just chose not to.
I expect players to bust their ass on the field to win. I expect coaches to out work and outsmart opponents. I expect ownership to do what it takes to field the best team. Not only are we 43 mill short of doing that the structure of how we spent what we did was slanted toward least cash for cap than most talent for cap.

 

[n1997y]

They lost out to Tennessee. They could have paid more. But that’s just one player. There were DOZENS they could have signed and just chose not to.
I expect players to bust their ass on the field to win. I expect coaches to out work and outsmart opponents. I expect ownership to do what it takes to field the best team. Not only are we 43 mill short of doing that the structure of how we spent what we did was slanted toward least cash for cap than most talent for cap.

I agree. I think this is another sign of the changing of the guard, from Robert to Jonathan. Bain Capital comes to the NFL. It’s about winning on the balance sheet, not on the field. This is one data point. Judson’s contract is another.

 

[Ian]

Why would they have to “way overshoot” it. Ridley is worth a lot more than money sitting in krafts pocket.

Again, takes two sides to make a deal. Ridley didn’t want to come here, which is why he kept hoping the Jags would up the ante and he instead also jumped at the chance to play with Hopkins in Tennessee and not have to come here. They had no star power to attract anyone back then and the prospect of drafting Maye or whoever was still just a hypothetical.

When I said that about the money, it had nothing to do with Kraft since it sounded like he was clearly pushing for it to get done. He knew they needed it, but Elliot Wolf also understood value and the repercussions of going too far.

The sad but true fact at the time was the only way Ridley would have come here was if they overpaid him the money he wasn’t worth, which would have hurt their chances when they finally do have a guy who is.

It’s not easy to jump on “they’re cheap” it’s painful. But it’s reality. We always thought we were smarter than everyone else by not paying but in reality we were way smarter than everyone else by winning without being able to pay.

This was a 4 win team with the goat coach. There are hundreds of players who could help this team.

Don’t even pretend they are going to spend it next year. They already have 78 million in cap space.
I know if feels better to think there is a positive answer, but there isn’t. Believe me I am devastated by where this franchise is but I can’t lie.

Totally get it. But at the end of the day, we’re essentially where we would have been at in another 3-4 years . The thing that stinks is the timeline got moved up. But Mayo was the next guy up either way. It is what it is.

 

[Ring 6]

Again, takes two sides to make a deal. Ridley didn’t want to come here, which is why he kept hoping the Jags would up the ante and he instead also jumped at the chance to play with Hopkins in Tennessee and not have to come here. They had no star power to attract anyone back then and the prospect of drafting Maye or whoever was still just a hypothetical.

When I said that about the money, it had nothing to do with Kraft since it sounded like he was clearly pushing for it to get done. He knew they needed it, but Elliot Wolf also understood value and the repercussions of going too far.

The sad but true fact at the time was the only way Ridley would have come here was if they overpaid him the money he wasn’t worth, which would have hurt their chances when they finally do have a guy who is.

Totally get it. But at the end of the day, we’re essentially where we would have been at in another 3-4 years . The thing that stinks is the timeline got moved up. But Mayo was the next guy up either way. It is what it is.

Tennesse had the 27th ranked offense and lost their best player. I find it very hard to believe Ridley felt playing across from an aging receiver made that the only possible choice. No player ever says “it was the money” but it usually is.
Again he was just one of dozens of players.

I don’t know how anyone could be pleased with this offseason. A 4 win team did nothing that looks like improvement. They chose to not use 43 million. They chose to try 43 million less than other teams. When a team goes into an off season with 43 mill of cap room they see that as a bonanza and a great opportunity to improve their team. We just didn’t bother to use it.
It’s very annoying. Sucking and trying is bad enough but sucking because you didn’t even try is hard to accept.

 

[Ian]

Tennesse had the 27th ranked offense and lost their best player. I find it very hard to believe Ridley felt playing across from an aging receiver made that the only possible choice. No player ever says “it was the money” but it usually is.
Again he was just one of dozens of players.

You keep mentioning him, as does Felger and every other media person. He was never coming here unless they paid him crazy and unreasonable money. If they had done that, I’m sure the narrative would be killing them for “clearly not understanding the real value of a player” and “spending irresponsibly.” He’s not worth above what he got.

I don’t know how anyone could be pleased with this offseason. A 4 win team did nothing that looks like improvement. They chose to not use 43 million. They chose to try 43 million less than other teams. When a team goes into an off season with 43 mill of cap room they see that as a bonanza and a great opportunity to improve their team. We just didn’t bother to use it.
It’s very annoying. Sucking and trying is bad enough but sucking because you didn’t even try is hard to accept.

This is already a team that’s significantly better on offense than it was a year ago with essentially the same defense. They seemingly potentially hit on two young wideouts and they kept Onwenu, Bourne, Stevenson and Henry - among others - in the fold.

The tackles remain a question mark, and the rest sort of hinges on Maye. But they’ve already added multiple talented pieces and shed some dead weight. Which for a rebuilding team is obviously what you hope to see.

You act like they’ve done nothing, but so far, they’ve taken some small yet fairly significant steps forward. Especially if those guys continue to grow.

Again, it hinges on Maye and the tackles. But there are at least reasons to believe they’ll potentially be better than they were on offense than they were a year ago.

Bill’s gone and the way he went out wasn’t ideal. But if they can keep drafting offensive skill players and keep that going, I like their chances. Albeit, the coaching on defense without Bill is something all of us our wondering. Although again, he wasn’t going to be here longer than a few more years and it’s unfortunate last year both went and ended the way it did.

 

[Ring 6]

You keep mentioning him, as does Felger and every other media person. He was never coming here unless they paid him crazy and unreasonable money. If they had done that, I’m sure the narrative would be killing them for “clearly not understanding the real value of a player” and “spending irresponsibly.” He’s not worth above what he got.

This is already a team that’s significantly better on offense than it was a year ago with essentially the same defense. They seemingly potentially hit on two young wideouts and they kept Onwenu, Bourne, Stevenson and Henry - among others - in the fold.

The tackles remain a question mark, and the rest sort of hinges on Maye. But they’ve already added multiple talented pieces and shed some dead weight. Which for a rebuilding team is obviously what you hope to see.

You act like they’ve done nothing, but so far, they’ve taken some small yet fairly significant steps forward. Especially if those guys continue to grow.

Again, it hinges on Maye and the tackles. But there are at least reasons to believe they’ll potentially be better than they were on offense than they were a year ago.

Bill’s gone and the way he went out wasn’t ideal. But if they can keep drafting offensive skill players and keep that going, I like their chances. Albeit, the coaching on defense without Bill is something all of us our wondering. Although again, he wasn’t going to be here longer than a few more years and it’s unfortunate last year both went and ended the way it did.

You keep saying that but you don’t know what it would have taken. And, again, that’s one guy, if you don’t want to send it on him spend it on someone else or many others.

How are they better on offense? They traded out tackles possibly for the worse. Keeping the same players doesn’t make you better. The WRs are a little different but certainly not sure to be better.

The defense is missing the guy who ran it. It was a game plan defense that put players in positions to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. You don’t subtract the best defensive mind in the game and not suffer. Especially when you overachieve.
Not they are probably with Barmore, Judon and maybe godchaux.

The early returns are they are uninterested in using all of their resources to field the best team after settling for possibly the least experienced HC ever, a DC who was 4th in line last year, and an OC who was fired in addition to not being allowed to call plays.
Yes if the got the QB that’s huge, but I find it hard to be excited about anything else they did. It seems you do too but are deciding to have low expectations and taking the “it’s hard, give them a break” approach. Not to put words in your mouth but that’s what I am hearing.

 

[Ian]

You keep saying that but you don’t know what it would have taken. And, again, that’s one guy, if you don’t want to send it on him spend it on someone else or many others.

I hear you, but I’m thinking of it from the standpoint of $1-$2 million per year likely wouldn’t have moved the needle given what we heard during those negotiations. And he wasn’t worth $5-$10 million more annually.

How are they better on offense? They traded out tackles possibly for the worse. Keeping the same players doesn’t make you better. The WRs are a little different but certainly not sure to be better.

Skill players are significantly better than a year ago. Still not ideal, but the two kids they drafted already seem like they can play. That’s already better than we’ve seen in the past. I love Bill as much as the next person, but that’s way too big of a sample size to feel like there might have been a blind spot drafting that position early.

The defense is missing the guy who ran it. It was a game plan defense that put players in positions to use their strengths and hide their weaknesses. You don’t subtract the best defensive mind in the game and not suffer. Especially when you overachieve.
Not they are probably with Barmore, Judon and maybe godchaux.

Agree on the bolded. Although I’m also trying to take into account this situation was already coming. As I’ve said, it’s just here sooner than most of us would have liked.

The early returns are they are uninterested in using all of their resources to field the best team after settling for possibly the least experienced HC ever, a DC who was 4th in line last year, and an OC who was fired in addition to not being allowed to call plays.

In fairness, Van Pelt was collateral damage after Cleveland cleaned house. But he’ll obviously be judged by how he performs this year and moving forward.

Yes if the got the QB that’s huge, but I find it hard to be excited about anything else they did. It seems you do too but are deciding to have low expectations and taking the “it’s hard, give them a break” approach. Not to put words in your mouth but that’s what I am hearing.

More of a “last year was terrible and they’re starting over again so I’m expecting improvement and going Into it with a wait-and-see” approach.

Again, I’m bummed Bill’s gone too and this whole situation is not ideal, but that’s where we are. All we can do is hope it works out. Because the alternative is bad - and zero fun - for everybody.

 

[Wozzy]

This team shouldn’t be playing for this year, it isn’t going to win.

He needs to work in all of those things working on them in live action will make him better faster.

He’s the qb next year no matter. So we have this year to get him ready to be the best he can next year.
Holding a clipboard won’t make him better, playing football will.

I’m not sure what QBs you were referring to that the coaches knew weren’t ready so they sat. Every one I can think of off the top of my head had an established QB in front of them and the team was playing to win that year.

Dude… if he can’t get the offense lined up properly in practice and get a snap off cleanly he shouldn’t be playing in real games period.

Your take is a “fan” take, an actual coach would think it’s absurd because it is. You think you can rewrite the process because you’re impatient and can’t wait a year or even months.

There’s also the possibility Maye pulls a Mac and improves mightily and takes the job, Mac had no business starting in 2021 this early in camp, he looked like crap… then he improved.

Nobody wants to watch Maye go out there and draw flags because he couldn’t snap the ball before the play clock ran out or has a false start because his linemen are going on one and not two. That’s what I saw Friday at practice, it’s what reporters are tweeting. He’s not ready.

Your loaf of bread doesn’t prepare itself and cook faster just because you’re impatient.

 

[Ring 6]

Dude… if he can’t get the offense lined up properly in practice and get a snap off cleanly he shouldn’t be playing in real games period.

Your take is a “fan” take, an actual coach would think it’s absurd because it is. You think you can rewrite the process because you’re impatient and can’t wait a year or even months.

There’s also the possibility Maye pulls a Mac and improves mightily and takes the job, Mac had no business starting in 2021 this early in camp, he looked like crap… then he improved.

Nobody wants to watch Maye go out there and draw flags because he couldn’t snap the ball before the play clock ran out or has a false start because his linemen are going on one and not two. That’s what I saw Friday at practice, it’s what reporters are tweeting. He’s not ready.

Your loaf of bread doesn’t prepare itself and cook faster just because you’re impatient.

So your argument is that Maye isn’t smart enough to play Qb? That’s a ridiculous statement.

 

[Wozzy]

History has also shown repeatedly that not spend by to get players is worse. The Rams bought a SB. Trying to win with smart fiscal choices doesn’t work when you leave 40,000,000 on the table. More frightening is the way they used the cap room. A 1 year 7 mill deal takes up as much cap as a 5 yr 60 mill with a 25 mill signing bonus. Those are 2 very different players.

Two decades of winning in New England is history… your imagination isn’t.

You still haven’t told me what players they should have signed to massive deals instead.

The Pats needed a LT and some WR help… the two biggest contracted players at these positions were “good” not “great.”

 

[sb1]

There were a lot of free agents. They didn’t even try on most of the expensive ones. Bad teams sign big free agents every year. But even if they couldn’t get the most sight after guy, they could have improved the roster. Do you really see any improvement?

QB room is absolutely better.
OL is TBD
Receivers if camp is any indication are better.
DL is worse because of Barmore's absence
LB is worse until Judon signs then it's a wash
CB should be better.
ST might be WAY better. Hopefully.
Coaching was dreadful the last 2 seasons so it shouldn't be much of an ask for that to be better as well.

Pats signed a bunch of big names in 2021 only to get their doors blown off in the playoffs and only one of them is still on the team.

 

[Wozzy]

So your argument is that Maye isn’t smart enough to play Qb? That’s a ridiculous statement.

No, I said he isn’t experienced enough. He never played under center in college, he didn’t even call plays in a huddle. He didn’t have to recognize blitz or line up his linemen.

Do you remember what it was like being 21 years old? Did you know what you know now?

Ridiculous is you saying throw him to the wolves when he can’t even line his players up in presnap. Play Brissettt until Maye takes the job, there’s a process for a reason. You’re not going to reinvent 100+ years of football history just because you’re impatient.

 

[Ring 6]

QB room is absolutely better.
OL is TBD
Receivers if camp is any indication are better.
DL is worse because of Barmore's absence
LB is worse until Judon signs then it's a wash
CB should be better.
ST might be WAY better. Hopefully.
Coaching was dreadful the last 2 seasons so it shouldn't be much of an ask for that to be better as well.

Pats signed a bunch of big names in 2021 only to get their doors blown off in the playoffs and only one of them is still on the team.

Qb can’t be worse in the long run but who knows what you get from a rookie and if brissett is playing it doesn’t really matter, we aren’t winning.
Receiver is a huge unknown.
How is corner better? We didn’t add anyone.
We have lost many st players. Being better would just be luck.
Coaching went from the GOAT to the least experienced HC maybe ever.

At best your analysis is pretty much the same. At worst the defense implodes

Judon, godchaux, Henry, Bourne are all still here. I think losing in the playoffs would be better than a step back from a 4 win team.

Hey if you are good with not spending to the cap, and leaving 43 million in krafts pocket instead of on the field, good for you but I want the best team we can put together out there.

 

[Ring 6]

No, I said he isn’t experienced enough. He never played under center in college, he didn’t even call plays in a huddle. He didn’t have to recognize blitz or line up his linemen.

Do you remember what it was like being 21 years old? Did you know what you know now?

Ridiculous is you saying throw him to the wolves when he can’t even line his players up in presnap. Play Brissettt until Maye takes the job, there’s a process for a reason. You’re not going to reinvent 100+ years of football history just because you’re impatient.

Many QBs play as rookies and are able to understand how to get a play off before the play clock expires (you think naye is not capable of that, I disagree).
If he is so stupid he can’t learn to line players up after a full camp they should cut him.
Did CJ Stoud reinvent 100 years of football?

It has nothing to do with insistence. I’ve written off this season, and next as well. I’m pointing toward being competitive in 2026 under the new cis hung staff. I want the qb of the future to have as much experience as possible by then. Sitting on the bench does nothing for him.

 

[Ring 6]

Two decades of winning in New England is history… your imagination isn’t.

You still haven’t told me what players they should have signed to massive deals instead.

The Pats needed a LT and some WR help… the two biggest contracted players at these positions were “good” not “great.”

So in those 2 decades of winning how many times did the patriots pocket 43 million of cap space?

I listed dozens of players in this thread. Take your pick. Any of them is better than no one.


so we shouldn’t want good players? It’s great or settle for 4 wins?

They are a 4 win team. They need more than 1 OL and WR help. They virtually ignored the defense. The defense is going to be terrible this year. They lost the greatest defensive mind in the game. Looks like they are probably losing their 2 best defensive players too.

 

[sb1]

Qb can’t be worse in the long run but who knows what you get from a rookie and if brissett is playing it doesn’t really matter, we aren’t winning.
Receiver is a huge unknown.
How is corner better? We didn’t add anyone.

I'm counting Gonzalez's return. He didn't even play 1/4 of a season last year. He's no sure thing but should be an upgrade for the group.

We have lost many st players. Being better would just be luck.

Pats had one of the worst special teams in the league last year so losing those guys might not be a bad thing. Kicker was terrible hopefully Ryland feels the pressure for his job and gets better.

Coaching went from the GOAT to the least experienced HC maybe ever.

Bill may be the GOAT HC but he was not a good coach the last couple of seasons.

There's a reason why was fired and no team wants him.

At best your analysis is pretty much the same. At worst the defense implodes

Lots of question marks.

Judon, godchaux, Henry, Bourne are all still here. I think losing in the playoffs would be better than a step back from a 4 win team.

Good point, those guys were all signed at the same time.

Hey if you are good with not spending to the cap, and leaving 43 million in krafts pocket instead of on the field, good for you but I want the best team we can put together out there.

My prediction is they'll eke out 5 wins this time but the offense is watchable which it wasn't last year and we'll have a sense that the needle is pointing up again at the end of the season and hopefully our new QB has more seasoning. Signing a bunch of high priced guys for what they did on other teams in the past and not what they'll do on the Patriots is no guarantee of anything. If there are no game changers out there I'd like to see them develop from within and at least they're trying to do that.

 

[Real fan 02]

Brady, Rogers, Kermit, Hurts, Love...?

Brady sat behind drew
Rodgers Sat behind farve
Mahomes sat behind Smith
Hurts was almost traded for Wilson
Love sat behind Rodgers...