Would you trade 2025 1st for Lamb?

[Huckleberry1]

Randy Moss didn't do diddly with Andrew Walters the year prior on the Raiders.... why, shouldn't Randy have made Walters an All Pro?

Where has anyone made the argument that a great WR can make a bad QB into a good one? I have looked through this thread and don’t see anyone making that claim. Maybe I missed it, but if you see iit then let me know.

 

[Wozzy]

And I never said a receiver can turn a bad QB into a good one, all I said is that the young highly drafted QB’s have done better after adding a high quality receiver to the offense. And I have made the argument that you don’t have to have a #1 WR to win championships on many occasions. Adding a great receiver can really enhance offensive output, but it doesn’t guarantee championships.

Better O-Line, better weapons, better defense that forces turnovers and gets him the ball back faster and closer to his redzone... sure better everything helps.

None of this changes that trading high draft capital for a player, who you then have to pay top of the market deal is outright dumb.

Use that first round pick on a stud WR instead, get them on a rookie cost controlled contract 4 year deal with a 5th year option.

 

[sb1]

QB's make receivers, not the other way around. When the ball starts traveling in the other direction, let me know.

Unless you’re Jake Delhomme with Steve Smith. Or Flacco with Boldin. Dalton and AJ Green. Or even Tebow with D. Thomas and Decker

 

[Thunderhead]

Would I trade the possible #1OA for a receiver? No, no I would not.

 

[Wozzy]

Unless you’re Jake Delhomme with Steve Smith. Or Flacco with Boldin. Dalton and AJ Green. Or even Tebow with D. Thomas and Decker

You're taking the effect and making it the cause.

Delhomme was pretty good, Flacco just won Comeback Player Of The Year at 38 year's of age, he was pretty good also.

Tebow only started 16 games over his career, completed 47% of his passes and went 8-6 with the receivers you mention... he sucked.

Again, you guys understand how gravity and the basic physics of football work... right?

 

[TheRainMaker]

QB's make receivers, not the other way around. When the ball starts traveling in the other direction, let me know.

Tom Brady looked mortal when his supporting cast was subpar.

The Chiefs are back-to-back champions because they traded a handful of firsts instead of making Tyreek the highest paid weapon the NFL.

They only got one 1st round pick for Hill. However, they got 4 additional picks for him which included a 2nd rounder and 2 4th rounders. The big get out that trade was McDuffie who has turned into an All Pro CB. Had McDuffie been a bust, it would've been a terrible trade.

 

[Wozzy]

Tom Brady looked mortal when his supporting cast was subpar.

All QB's look mortal when the supporting cast is subpar. It's a team sport.

And you'll have to be more specific, Tom's offense posted top ten finishes and he won some Super Bowls with 7th round draft pick and UDFA WR's... when his offensive line was bad or injured, he had to run for his life and in 2019 he got injured.

I put offensive line above weapons for that reason, Tom or any great QB can make average weapons look great. Tom/Burrow/Herbert on the 2021 Patriot roster is competing for a ring. It all starts upfront and under center.

They only got one 1st round pick for Hill. However, they got 4 additional picks for him which included a 2nd rounder and 2 4th rounders. The big get out that trade was McDuffie who has turned into an All Pro CB. Had McDuffie been a bust, it would've been a terrible trade.

Having ten picks in 2022 allowed them to throw a lot at the wall and make a lot of picks. Pacheco, Chenal, Karlaftis... they got a lot of great players in that one draft class.

There's another element you've left out entirely... Tyreek signed a 4 year 120M dollar contract. They match that signing and they lose more of their crucial free agents, also possibly lose their second most important player in Chris Jones.

The picks, plus gobs of cap space... the trade was a must for them to have continued success. The Dolphins just let Christian Wilkins, the best defensive lineman on their team walk out the door because they know they have to pay Tua. Tyreek hasn't put them over the top, he's put them in a hole.

 

[sb1]

You're taking the effect and making it the cause.

Those names are QB's who were made by their receivers.

Delhomme was pretty good,

Not really. Career rating only 81.3. Threw a lot of picks. Take Smith away and those numbers would be ugly. Still got to play in a Super Bowl with Smith and Muhammad.

Flacco just won Comeback Player Of The Year at 38 year's of age, he was pretty good also.

83 career rating without Boldin...meh. Boldin also came up huge in the Super Bowl.

Tebow only started 16 games over his career, completed 47% of his passes and went 8-6 with the receivers you mention... he sucked.

Won a playoff game with them. Once those guys were out of the picture his career cratered. Again, a QB who was made by his receivers.

It is true that most QB's make their receivers good but in a few cases it goes the other way too.

 

[Real fan 02]

Yeah butt, Drake Maye can hit the crossbar from 80+ yards. Wait, sign the crossbar for $0.

When he's hitting polk and baker for 40 yard gains you'll have your fan boy hat on... just like me LOL..

 

[Real fan 02]

I voted RLKAG, I'll explain, and I will try to be brief.

1. LT as on 5/20 8:17am, is a glaring need. They may fix it with Wallace, but put me in the skeptic camp. I think they'll be looking to spend a top 15 pick on a LT next April.
2. What kind of contract? I am not trading a first for a rental on a team that might make it to .500.
3. What if Polk and Baker end up better than expected? The stink of Belichick's disdain for all things WR is gone. I would bet these two end up at the level of Jayden Reed and Romeo Doubs, which we all would have been happy with while the Packers were in the playoffs last season. I want to wait and see how they develop before trading assets now.
4. I like Lamb A LOT. He's probably the only guy that would give me a long pause on such an offer. But right now, no.

Agreed here. 2024-25 will tell us alot. Whoever lines up at LT, ther performance of the position and the line all together. No longer the bent Trent play whenever I want stench in the O line room either.

I'll take the reed and doubs comparison. I believe polk and baker will thrive in this offense. I'm trying not to get to up or down until the real big boy practices start in July.

 

[JohnJH]

Randy Moss didn't do diddly with Andrew Walters the year prior on the Raiders.... why, shouldn't Randy have made Walters an All Pro?

My statement merely meant that when Brady got Moss, his long pass success was greatly increased that year and it was due to Moss being a freak at hauling in such passes. Stop with the nitpicking. Let it go dude!

 

[Wozzy]

Those names are QB's who were made by their receivers.

How did Tim Tebow last three years on an active roster, get 16 starts and Josh McDaniels fired? He had great weapons... he sucked, you're suggesting he was good... he wasn't. Weapons can't make a bad QB good.

Flacco is still playing 16 years later, Delhomme played 11 years, they were good regardless of weapons. How well their team did overall was a result of the team around them, but they were consistent in performance. Neither of these guys is much different than Jacoby Brissett outside of the fact Jacoby has played on only bad teams after he left the Pats.

The ball get snapped by the center to the QB, the blocking in front of him determines how much time he has... then and only then do receivers get the ball.

When that ^ changes... let me know.

The QB is the guy who stirs the drink, but O-Linemen are the only position who don't rely on anyone else to be successful... yet everyone else relies on O-Linemen. Football is won in the trenches and under center... weapons can be found later in the draft and in free agency.

 

[Wozzy]

My statement merely meant that when Brady got Moss, his long pass success was greatly increased that year and it was due to Moss being a freak at hauling in such passes. Stop with the nitpicking. Let it go dude!

It's simple logic, not nitpicking. If a great receiver could make a bad QB good, then the 2006 Raiders wouldn't have been the worst passing team in the league. See last year's Raiders with Devante Adams if you need another example.

The problem with most of these "WR's make QB's" examples, is these posters are only looking at already good young QB's and attributing their success to weapons... while totally ignoring examples that fail miserably.

 

[Steve102]

Agreed here. 2024-25 will tell us alot. Whoever lines up at LT, ther performance of the position and the line all together. No longer the bent Trent play whenever I want stench in the O line room either.

I'll take the reed and doubs comparison. I believe polk and baker will thrive in this offense. I'm trying not to get to up or down until the real big boy practices start in July.

The joint practices and the games will tell us a lot, in regards to the QB room. I would not be surprised if the rookie WRs don't figure it all out until varying points of the season.

 

[Froob]

Hell no, we could be picking top 5.

 

[Huckleberry1]

It's simple logic, not nitpicking. If a great receiver could make a bad QB good, then the 2006 Raiders wouldn't have been the worst passing team in the league. See last year's Raiders with Devante Adams if you need another example.

The problem with most of these "WR's make QB's" examples, is these posters are only looking at already good young QB's and attributing their success to weapons... while totally ignoring examples that fail miserably.

Once again with the strawman argument. Not one person here has argued that a great WR makes a bad QB into a good one, and when I asked you to point to anyone one claiming that you pivoted to OL and defense etc…, only to turn back around later and make the claim again. There are plenty of strong arguments against making this trade, and the overwhelming sentiment here has been against it, so I really don’t know why you are continually arguing against a position that hasn’t even been taken.

 

[n1997y]

…

This tells me that the team is being EXTREMELY selective in players and wanting to reduce the age of the Roster. When they only sign 1 (Vet QB) and only have 6 on the roster in total after having cut 4, let 2 sign somewhere else, and had 3-4 retire. That's the Front Office sending a message that they aren't going to re-sign you unless you're playing EXTREMELY well. And

I think ANDREWS is the exception. I think that they only gave him an extension because they're not sure what they have in Jake Andrews. They signed that Turner kid from LSU who is also an unknown. They signed Nick Leverett as the veteran to replace Ferentz. We don't know the potential for Cole Strange's career, let alone his potential at center, especially since he's recovering from surgery.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats INVEST a 2nd/3rd round pick in a Center next year. I also expect a mid-range RB regardless of what Kevin Harris or Rhamondre do.

I expect this year and the next couple we will see a lot of roster churn. Seems to me they’re already looking to build through draft and UDFA rookies, not FA vets or trades or as DaBruinz pointed out even paying to keep their own older guys. Makes sense, rookies are the cheapest contracts. Throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. They can take the time to do that now, because nobody has any high expectations for at least this year or next.

Good example is LT. They’ve got something like half a dozen candidates for the position: Wallace, Anderson, Okorafor, Lowe, Wheatley, Zuri Henry, maybe even Stueber. They’ll all get a chance to show they can do the job. Whoever does it best will become the front runner. Once the leading candidate is identified they’ll be the measuring stick and if/when somebody outplays them there will be an upgrade. Wash, rinse, repeat.

WR is the same. We’ve got prospects out the wazoo, with eleven WRs on the roster now. That is rookies Javon Baker, Polk, youngsters (1 to 3 years in the league) Kawaan Baker, Boutte, Pop Douglas, T.J.Luther, Thornton, and veterans Bourne, Osborn, Reagor, Juju. That’s who is listed on the roster, not including tryouts or likely future turnover. With the team in rebuilding mode there’s no reason to spend big bucks on a big name WR like CeeDee Lamb; instead let the guys already here compete, pick the best five or six and build around them. That’s cheapest, and will be good enough.

Three years from now I expect the team to be much younger, with a much higher proportion of home grown talent. Remember that the average NFL career is three years, so that includes a lot of churn in the middle and bottom of the roster. We will see two or three more off seasons without much exciting FA action. Get used to it.

 

[DaBruinz]

Onwenu has played RT more than he's played guard, 3 years of his 4 year career, and proven he can play great at either... he just can't play the left side. They paid him like a right tackle.

Wallace has to prove he can play in the NFL first before we pencil him in anywhere.

Sow isn't starting simply because they drafted him, he's starting because last offseason he looked lost in rookie minicamp, got better week after week, until by the end of preseason he clearly looked like a starter and was throwing defenders around.

In 2023: RG 194 /RT 656
2022: RG 1044 / RT 0
2021: LT 54 / LG 290 / RG 2 / RT 276
2020: LG 112 /RG 185 /RT 616

TOTALs: LT 54/ LG 402 / RG 1425 / RT 1548



2020 - 3 Hurries LG; 0 Sacks, 0 Hits, 1 Hurries at RG; 3 Sacks, 1 Hit, 6 hurries at RT
2021 - 0 sacks, 0 Hits, 0 Hurries LT; 2 Sacks, 2 Hits, 3 Hurries LG ; 0 sacks, 2 hits, 2 hurries RT
2022 - 1sack, 2 hits, 11 hurries RG
2023 - 1 hit, 3 hurries RG ; 3 sacks, 1 hit, 15 hurries RT

Career Totals:
LT: 0 sacks, 0 hits, 0 hurries in 54 snaps
LG: 2 sacks, 2 hits, 6 hurries in 402 snaps
RG: 1 sack, 3 hits, 15 hurries in 1425 snaps
RT: 6 sacks, 4 hits, 23 hurries in 1548 snaps

He may have taken the most snaps by 123 at RT, but it's clear that RG is his best position.

Penei Sewell - 2022 2 sacks, 6 hits, 20 hurries in 1140 snaps ; 2023 - 1sack, 6 hits, 18 hurries in 1377 snaps
Lane Johnson - 2021- 0 sack, 1 hit, 10 hurries in 864 snaps ; 2022 - 0 sacks, 0 hits, 11 hurries in 1173 snaps ; 2023 - 3 sacks, 2 hits, 30 hurries in 1038 snaps

You should probably look at RG salaries. They aren't that different than RT. His $19M AAV puts him 3rd for RG and 4th for RT.

 

[Wozzy]

Once again with the strawman argument. Not one person here has argued that a great WR makes a bad QB into a good one,

and when I asked you to point to anyone one claiming that you pivoted to OL and defense etc…, only to turn back around later and make the claim again. There are plenty of strong arguments against making this trade, and the overwhelming sentiment here has been against it, so I really don’t know why you are continually arguing against a position that hasn’t even been taken.

Ummmm... what? Scroll up a few posts...

"Unless you’re Jake Delhomme with Steve Smith. Or Flacco with Boldin. Dalton and AJ Green. Or even Tebow with D. Thomas and Decker" - SB1

 

[Wozzy]

In 2023: RG 194 /RT 656
2022: RG 1044 / RT 0
2021: LT 54 / LG 290 / RG 2 / RT 276
2020: LG 112 /RG 185 /RT 616

TOTALs: LT 54/ LG 402 / RG 1425 / RT 1548

2020 - 3 Hurries LG; 0 Sacks, 0 Hits, 1 Hurries at RG; 3 Sacks, 1 Hit, 6 hurries at RT
2021 - 0 sacks, 0 Hits, 0 Hurries LT; 2 Sacks, 2 Hits, 3 Hurries LG ; 0 sacks, 2 hits, 2 hurries RT
2022 - 1sack, 2 hits, 11 hurries RG
2023 - 1 hit, 3 hurries RG ; 3 sacks, 1 hit, 15 hurries RT

Career Totals:
LT: 0 sacks, 0 hits, 0 hurries in 54 snaps
LG: 2 sacks, 2 hits, 6 hurries in 402 snaps
RG: 1 sack, 3 hits, 15 hurries in 1425 snaps
RT: 6 sacks, 4 hits, 23 hurries in 1548 snaps

He may have taken the most snaps by 123 at RT, but it's clear that RG is his best position.

Penei Sewell - 2022 2 sacks, 6 hits, 20 hurries in 1140 snaps ; 2023 - 1sack, 6 hits, 18 hurries in 1377 snaps
Lane Johnson - 2021- 0 sack, 1 hit, 10 hurries in 864 snaps ; 2022 - 0 sacks, 0 hits, 11 hurries in 1173 snaps ; 2023 - 3 sacks, 2 hits, 30 hurries in 1038 snaps

You should probably look at RG salaries. They aren't that different than RT. His $19M AAV puts him 3rd for RG and 4th for RT.

This ^ is just a large jumble of numbers, not sure what I'm looking at?

Considering Onwenu was the starting right tackle in OTA's today, I think the Pats have spoken.