Would you trade 2025 1st for Lamb?

[Wozzy]

Many teams disagree. If Brissett was good, he'd be someone's permanent starter. He isn't, so he's not.

You said Tebow was good, your evaluation can't be trusted.

Yes team matters. Agreed. Shame his HC/GM thought differently and decided to bring in two bozos out of their league to develop his young QB only because being a contrarian is more important than common sense.

Again with Bill... dude, seek help, there are people you can talk to.

 

[Wozzy]

Tebow = bad but he made a few plays at one point thanks to his receivers

Sucked... great weapons didn't make him good.

Hoyer = not good enough to be a starter

Yeah, average.... if I posted Brissett's stats as a starter next to Hoyer's you'd see how much better he is than Brian. Again... you're having trouble differentiating between bad/average/good/great.

Flacco = adequate starter at best but not anymore

We're talking about Flacco in his prime and how successful he was with a great team around him. That's true of all QB's.

Mahomes = great

He was less great when his offensive line broke down at the end of 2020. It's a team game.

 

[sb1]

Tebow sucked, his stats suck... beating one team or even a couple of teams is proof of nothing. If he were even "average" he'd be a backup QB somewhere.

Given your "Tebow was good" take, you clearly can't differentiate between bad/average/good/great. Maybe you'd better sit this one out.

Right back at ya. You thought Zappe smurf was good. Lololololol

I didn't say Tebow was good anywhere in any topic.

Seriously... nobody mentioned Bill at all. You are clearly obsessed and irrationally so... seek help.

Irrational about what? That he did a wretched job in his final seasons here? That's true so how's that irrational?

Funny since we're talking about two QB's who starting played in the late 90's and early 2000's... also funny since we're talking about career passer rating not individual seasons. Joe Flacco had a 113 QB Rating one season, he was the Super Bowl MVP... but he isn't good. Sounds legit...

Funny what happened when he had Boldin. Which is what I said.

Winston has been warming a bench ever since... so no.

As a starter he has put up good stats, that's why the Patriots hired him as their bridge QB.

He's not an NFL caliber starter for any team. Think a slightly more talented and athletic Brian Hoyer. That's it.

Mac Jones sucked after 3/4's of his rookie season, prior to that he was merely decent passing less than most starting QB's and with an offense that ran the ball more than most other teams. He came crashing back to earth after the bye week when teams accumulated tape of him.

47-17 had nothing to do with Jones and everything to do with the so called defensive genius HC and his crew. Being outscored 72-3 was a good time last season but really that wild card game was one for the history books. Way to go Bill. That's on him, not the QB.

He sucked from week 13 on as a rookie, he looked like the same player for the next two years. Mac sucks period.

No he didn't look the same he looked completely lost and handled things poorly from there. That's what happens when you have absolutely wretched coaching, no leadership, no mentorship and no talent to work with.

 

[sb1]

Sucked... great weapons didn't make him good.

I never called Tebow good anywhere in any topic.

Yeah, average.... if I posted Brissett's stats as a starter next to Hoyer's you'd see how much better he is than Brian. Again... you're having trouble differentiating between bad/average/good/great.

Average = Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Both those guys at least were capable starters. Brissett (and Hoyer) are not starting caliber. QB's with 80 ratings are not "good". Get with the times, this isn't the 1980's.

We're talking about Flacco in his prime and how successful he was with a great team around him. That's true of all QB's.

And he was not nearly what he was once he wasn't throwing to Boldin and Smith anymore.

He was less great when his offensive line broke down at the end of 2020. It's a team game.

Not sure that's relevant but ok.

 

[Wozzy]

Right back at ya. You thought Zappe smurf was good. Lololololol

Through two starts in 2022 Zappe had a 100 QB Rating… that was pretty good.

He didn’t look good in 2023 but you just told us Mac was bad because of the team put around him… the team Zappe inherited was far worse.

I didn't say Tebow was good anywhere in any topic.

You literally said weapons made Tebow good. His stats sucked royally. You can’t keep up with your own takes.

Irrational about what? That he did a wretched job in his final seasons here? That's true so how's that irrational?

The bad man is gone, move on with your life.

Funny what happened when he had Boldin. Which is what I said.

The entire team was better around Flacco, it wasn’t one magical player. Don’t be absurd. The best WR in the NFL plays for the Raiders… why didn’t he make the Raiders QB good?

He's not an NFL caliber starter for any team. Think a slightly more talented and athletic Brian Hoyer. That's it.

Statistically better than Hoyer as a starter, facts aren’t your friend.

47-17 had nothing to do with Jones and everything to do with the so called defensive genius HC and his crew. Being outscored 72-3 was a good time last season but really that wild card game was one for the history books. Way to go Bill. That's on him, not the QB.

The Bill’s lost had nothing to do with Mac’s two turnovers and inability to move the ball downfield? The delusion is strong in you.

No he didn't look the same he looked completely lost and handled things poorly from there. That's what happens when you have absolutely wretched coaching, no leadership, no mentorship and no talent to work with.

Mac had a great team around him in 2021 and fell completely apart the last quarter of the season. Again… facts aren’t your friend.

Mac sucks… anyone suggesting otherwise is a fool.

 

[Wozzy]

I never called Tebow good anywhere in any topic.

Excerpt when you said above Denver’s weapons made him good… laughable. Changimy your mind after I point out how bad his stats suck isn’t the same as you never having said it.

Average = Andy Dalton or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Both those guys at least were capable starters. Brissett (and Hoyer) are not starting caliber. QB's with 80 ratings are not "good". Get with the times, this isn't the 1980's.

There’s 32 teams, teams have a minimum of two QB’s… you saying QB’s like Flacco who are better than 2/3rds of the QB’s in the NFL are “average” is not accurate. You’re not accounting for how many really average to poor QB’s there are sitting on benches.

And he was not nearly what he was once he wasn't throwing to Boldin and Smith anymore.

His blocking was worse, his defense was worse, his weapons were worse… he was pretty much the same player.

Not sure that's relevant but ok.

The level of QB play mostly stays the same, the team around them changes. Receivers can enhance a QB, they can’t turn bad into good. If they could, finding franchise QB’s wouldn’t be so difficult.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Jerrah has a real problem. He can’t pay Parsons, Prescott, and Lamb. Even though there is talk he will let Prescott walk I don’t believe it, as you can’t win without a QB, and Jerrah wants a ring before he goes to the big White House in the sky.

CeeDee Lamb is likely to be the one Jerrah moves, and the Patriots 1st in 2025 would seriously tempt him, as it will likely be a high pick even with Lamb coming to NE. So, if the Patriots are given the opportunity to sign Lamb to a long term deal would you trade the 2025 1st round pick for him?

NOPE. Our 1st round pick is likely to be a top 10 pick which means we could draft a WR stud on a cheap rookie deal rate.

I would offer a 2nd for a proven WR stud but you gotta keep in mind we have to tear up the contract and pay them 25m per year on top of that. So no, giving up a valuable high 1st rounder doesn't make sense.

 

[sb1]

Through two starts in 2022 Zappe had a 100 QB Rating… that was pretty good.

Zappe was never good at any time. He was a UDFA level talent and should not have been drafted at all. He had little to do with those two wins. The talk that he had any potential was just talk and those chants in the Bears game were embarrassing for the fanbase.

And Bill clownishly started the QB controversy anyway. Go figure.

He didn’t look good in 2023 but you just told us Mac was bad because of the team put around him… the team Zappe inherited was far worse.

Yes Jones handled the clownish decisions of his GM/HC poorly. Thankfully that's in the rear view mirror and they learned their lesson on how not to develop a young QB.

You literally said weapons made Tebow good. His stats sucked royally. You can’t keep up with your own takes.

As I said 3 times already I never said Tebow was good anywhere in any topic. I said he beat the Steelers with those guys.

The bad man is gone, move on with your life.

Oh right... "hate". Lol. I do hate bad coaching and the roster building the last few years that's for sure.

The entire team was better around Flacco, it wasn’t one magical player. Don’t be absurd. The best WR in the NFL plays for the Raiders… why didn’t he make the Raiders QB good?

I assume you're talking about Adams who IMO is not the best WR in the league, Jefferson is. Either way they're still a lot better on offense than they would be without him. Don't be fooled by the contrarian team building exercise that Bill put together. That's not how you build a winning team today unless you have the GOAT. It's not feasible. Weapons matter in today's NFL.

Statistically better than Hoyer as a starter, facts aren’t your friend.

The Bill’s lost had nothing to do with Mac’s two turnovers and inability to move the ball downfield? The delusion is strong in you.

Sorry 47-17 with the defense literally allowing on their drives TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, kneeldown - the only perfect offensive game in league history - that has nothing to do with the QB.

Mac had a great team around him in 2021

Great teams don't get depantsed 47-17 in a playoff game by a division rival. They were never that good.

and fell completely apart the last quarter of the season. Again… facts aren’t your friend.

Mac sucks… anyone suggesting otherwise is a fool.

Jones is yesterday's problem. Hopefully a lot of lessons were learned moving forward.

 

[sb1]

Excerpt when you said above Denver’s weapons made him good… laughable. Changimy your mind after I point out how bad his stats suck isn’t the same as you never having said it.

There’s 32 teams, teams have a minimum of two QB’s… you saying QB’s like Flacco who are better than 2/3rds of the QB’s in the NFL are “average” is not accurate. You’re not accounting for how many really average to poor QB’s there are sitting on benches.

His blocking was worse, his defense was worse, his weapons were worse… he was pretty much the same player.

The level of QB play mostly stays the same, the team around them changes. Receivers can enhance a QB, they can’t turn bad into good. If they could, finding franchise QB’s wouldn’t be so difficult.

Flacco has a career 84 rating. That puts him slightly above Eli Manning and below Sam Bradford. Also below Brissett who is not an NFL starting QB. Literally average. With Boldin and Smith Flacco was a beast...without not so much. I'd say that's average. And qualifies as a case where weapons made the QB.

I also mentioned Andre Johnson... unless you think Matt Schaub is a great QB and he led the league in passing on nothing but his own talent.

I don't think Jim Kelly goes to a bunch of Super Bowls either without Andre Reed and Thurman Thomas.

 

[Wozzy]

Zappe was never good at any time. He was a UDFA level talent and should not have been drafted at all. He had little to do with those two wins. The talk that he had any potential was just talk and those chants in the Bears game were embarrassing for the fanbase.

And Bill clownishly started the QB controversy anyway. Go figure.

Zappe started two games, won two games, the Patriots scored their two highest scoring totals on the season... but yeah, he didn't play well in 2022.



Zappe has made 8 career starts, we'll see what he develops into here or elsewhere.

Yes Jones handled the clownish decisions of his GM/HC poorly. Thankfully that's in the rear view mirror and they learned their lesson on how not to develop a young QB.

Jones had a genius coordinator and very good team around him in 2021, he folded anyway. That's why BB wanted to ship him out or bench him, but according to multiple different reporters got told by Kraft to keep him.

As I said 3 times already I never said Tebow was good anywhere in any topic. I said he beat the Steelers with those guys.

Yeah you did, you said his receivers in Denver made him good. Scroll up... that was the entire conversation. Changing your mind now, isn't not saying it.

Oh right... "hate". Lol. I do hate bad coaching and the roster building the last few years that's for sure.

I assume you're talking about Adams who IMO is not the best WR in the league, Jefferson is. Either way they're still a lot better on offense than they would be without him. Don't be fooled by the contrarian team building exercise that Bill put together. That's not how you build a winning team today unless you have the GOAT. It's not feasible. Weapons matter in today's NFL.

Funny how that works, Devante Adams is the best WR in the NFL with Aaron Rogers two years ago, now... not even in the conversation. Thanks for making my point for me.

Sorry 47-17 with the defense literally allowing on their drives TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, TD, kneeldown - the only perfect offensive game in league history - that has nothing to do with the QB.

Great teams don't get depantsed 47-17 in a playoff game by a division rival. They were never that good.

Jones is yesterday's problem. Hopefully a lot of lessons were learned moving forward.

His two turnovers and inability engineer a TD drive until the third quarter had nothing to do with it... his very first drive ended in an interception. Laughable.

Moreover you focusing on that one final game is so you... Mac went 1-4 after the bye week, he threw 7 interceptions and lost a fumble… 8 turnovers in five games while completing about 55% of his passes. He melted like the wicked witch.

 

[Wozzy]

Flacco has a career 84 rating. That puts him slightly above Eli Manning and below Sam Bradford. Also below Brissett who is not an NFL starting QB. Literally average. With Boldin and Smith Flacco was a beast...without not so much. I'd say that's average. And qualifies as a case where weapons made the QB.

I also mentioned Andre Johnson... unless you think Matt Schaub is a great QB and he led the league in passing on nothing but his own talent.

I don't think Jim Kelly goes to a bunch of Super Bowls either without Andre Reed and Thurman Thomas.

You're naming a bunch of good QB's and calling them average... again, you have no perspective.

If there are a minimum of 64 QB's in the NFL at any given time and you're better than 3/4's of the half who are starting you're not average. The math doesn't compute.

 

[sb1]

Zappe started two games, won two games, the Patriots scored their two highest scoring totals on the season... but yeah, he didn't play well in 2022.



Zappe has made 8 career starts, we'll see what he develops into here or elsewhere.

Zappeites still going back to that Cleveland game lmao. I recall how you were thumping your chest about Zappe last year before the Chargers game and told me to be on the forum after the game. After Zappe's offense got shut the eff out by the worst defense in the NFL I was here but you weren't.

The smurf doesn't belong in the league. The only thing he'll develop into sometime is a good fry machine operator at Burger King and he'll get his chance to do that soon.

Jones had a genius coordinator and very good team around him in 2021, he folded anyway. That's why BB wanted to ship him out or bench him, but according to multiple different reporters got told by Kraft to keep him.

You think McDaniels is a "genius" coordinator lol.
BB drafted Jones, BB's drafts on offense stunk in recent years and also picked Matt Patricia as his OC with predictable results. What happened to Jones is entirely on the HC/GM, full stop. There's nothing to debate here.

Yeah you did, you said his receivers in Denver made him good. Scroll up... that was the entire conversation. Changing your mind now, isn't not saying it.

Never said Tebow was good in any topic at any time. I said with the receivers he had in Denver he was better than afterward when he didn't have them, and that's true.

Funny how that works, Devante Adams is the best WR in the NFL with Aaron Rogers two years ago, now... not even in the conversation. Thanks for making my point for me.

?

His two turnovers and inability engineer a TD drive until the third quarter had nothing to do with it... his very first drive ended in an interception. Laughable.

Yes, a HC credited as a defensive genius watched as his defense got a wedgie from a division rival in a playoff game. That's not on the QB at all.

Moreover you focusing on that one final game is so you... Mac went 1-4 after the bye week, he threw 7 interceptions and lost a fumble… 8 turnovers in five games while completing about 55% of his passes. He melted like the wicked witch.

I'm focusing on the final game because you said they were a very good team in 2021. They weren't. As that last game demonstrated. Or any game against a good offense that year.

 

[Wozzy]

Zappeites still going back to that Cleveland game lmao. I recall how you were thumping your chest about Zappe last year before the Chargers game and told me to be on the forum after the game. After Zappe's offense got shut the eff out by the worst defense in the NFL I was here but you weren't.

The smurf doesn't belong in the league. The only thing he'll develop into sometime is a good fry machine operator at Burger King and he'll get his chance to do that soon.


You think McDaniels is a "genius" coordinator lol.
BB drafted Jones, BB's drafts on offense stunk in recent years and also picked Matt Patricia as his OC with predictable results. What happened to Jones is entirely on the HC/GM, full stop. There's nothing to debate here.

Never said Tebow was good in any topic at any time. I said with the receivers he had in Denver he was better than afterward when he didn't have them, and that's true.

?

Yes, a HC credited as a defensive genius watched as his defense got wedgie from a division rival in a playoff game. That's not on the QB at all.

I'm focusing on the final game because you said they were a very good team in 2021. They weren't. As that last game demonstrated. Or any game against a good offense that year.

Blah blah blah… you argued Tebow’s weapons made him good, now you’re saying you never said it. You’re also saying Flacco and Eli Manning are “average.”

You’re not a serious person, nobody can have a real conversation with you.

 

[sb1]

You're naming a bunch of good QB's and calling them average... again, you have no perspective.

If there are a minimum of 64 QB's in the NFL at any given time and you're better than 3/4's of the half who are starting you're not average. The math doesn't compute.

In 2024 a QB with a career rating in the 80's is not "good", sorry.

Also Gardner Minshew's career rating (90) > Flacco (84). Nuff said. Flacco without Boldin and Torrey Smith is average. They made him.

 

[sb1]

Blah blah blah… you argued Tebow’s weapons made him good, now you’re saying you never said it. You’re also saying Flacco and Eli Manning are “average.”

Point being, their weapons made them perform better than they really are. Which you said was impossible in the NFL, that it's always the QB who makes the receivers. Not true.

You’re not a serious person, nobody can have a real conversation with you.

I have higher standards than calling Brissett or Hoyer good QBs. A guy bouncing around the league as a backup is not "good" in my book.

 

[Wozzy]

Point being, their weapons made them perform better than they really are. Which you said was impossible in the NFL, that it's always the QB who makes the receivers. Not true.

No, I specifically said receivers can enhance what a QB already does well. I’m not waffling on what I said minutes ago… that’s you.

The ball travels in one direction. Learn the game.

I have higher standards than calling Brissett or Hoyer good QBs. A guy bouncing around the league as a backup is not "good" in my book.

Another lie, I specifically called Hoyer “average.” Place Brissett’s stats as a starter next to Hoyer's and one can clearly see the difference.

When your posting style consists of constantly changing what you said minutes ago and lying about what the person you’re debating with said… again, you’re not a serious person.

QB’s throw to WR’s, not the other way round.

 

[sb1]

No, I specifically said receivers can enhance what a QB already does well.

We agree then. Receivers can make QB's look better than they really are. Case in point: average QB's like Flacco and Schaub looking elite with great receivers.

I’m not waffling on what I said minutes ago… that’s you.

Didn't waffle at all.

The ball travels in one direction. Learn the game.

Another lie, I specifically called Hoyer “average.” Place Brissett’s stats as a starter next to Hoyer's and one can clearly see the difference.

Brissett = Hoyer. They're the same QB. Neither are what I'd consider good.

When your posting style consists of constantly changing what you said minutes ago and lying about what the person you’re debating with said… again, you’re not a serious person.

QB’s throw to WR’s, not the other way round.

QB's throw to WR's and when they can get open and catch the ball the QB's look good because they're moving their offense. If a QB has flaws, the receiver can make those flaws less obvious. Receivers can and have made QB's look better than they are.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Only if the trade package included some fava beans and a nice Chianti 2019 Amarone.

 

[DaBruinz]

This ^ is just a large jumble of numbers, not sure what I'm looking at?

Considering Onwenu was the starting right tackle in OTA's today, I think the Pats have spoken.

Wozzy - Playing dumb isn't your forte. It position and the number of SNAPS that Onwenu took at each. Followed by the sacks, QB hits and HURRIES he gave up at each position over the last 4 years.

If you seriously can sit there and say that giving up 1 sack in 1425 snaps is WORSE than 6 sacks in 1548 snaps , then you should just admit you don't give a flying f**k about reality and we can all add you to ignore going forward.

BTW, MAFI took snaps at center with the 1st stringers..

This is OTAs, Thinking that things are set in stone because of them is the most laughable thing YOU have posted.

 

[Wozzy]

Wozzy - Playing dumb isn't your forte. It position and the number of SNAPS that Onwenu took at each. Followed by the sacks, QB hits and HURRIES he gave up at each position over the last 4 years.

If you seriously can sit there and say that giving up 1 sack in 1425 snaps is WORSE than 6 sacks in 1548 snaps , then you should just admit you don't give a flying f**k about reality and we can all add you to ignore going forward.

BTW, MAFI took snaps at center with the 1st stringers..

This is OTAs, Thinking that things are set in stone because of them is the most laughable thing YOU have posted.

Like I said, it's a clusterfck of numbers that don't add up to much beyond he shouldn't be playing on the left side... which has been echoed by the coaches, he's limited to the right side.

By default a tackle is always going to give up more sacks than a guard... start there. A guard has help on either side, a tackle maybe one side but more often than not finds himself out there on an island. Also Onwenu was a rookie in 2020, people seem to forget that. When there was calamity in 2021 Onwenu actually got benched at right guard in favor of Ted Karras, that was because Scar had retired and there was no stabilizing force there. Onwenu bounced back from 2022 on and became one of their best linemen, he earned that contract.

Also last year is a lost year as far as I'm concerned, there were coaching, scheme, QB issues galore... everyone played poorly, everyone gets a fresh start. When I see vets like Andrews and Onwenu jumping offsides or missing blocking assignments, I know there's something more at work than just a lack of talent.

I never said things were set in stone, I said the coaches first instinct was to put Onwneu back at RT. We'll see if that holds, but they obviously don't see the problems you do.