Would you trade 2025 1st for Lamb?

[Dedhampatsfan]

A 1st? No way!

 

[sb1]

Ummmm... what? Scroll up a few posts...

"Unless you’re Jake Delhomme with Steve Smith. Or Flacco with Boldin. Dalton and AJ Green. Or even Tebow with D. Thomas and Decker" - SB1

That’s not what I said at all. I was responding to your point that receivers can’t make QBs. Doesn’t happen often, but it can happen as I mentioned above.

 

[sb1]

How did Tim Tebow last three years on an active roster, get 16 starts and Josh McDaniels fired? He had great weapons... he sucked, you're suggesting he was good...

No he was not good but he was still better with those guys than his career without them.

he wasn't. Weapons can't make a bad QB good

Weapons can make average good or even better than that. Too bad Bill acted differently or maybe he'd still have a job.

Flacco is still playing 16 years later, Delhomme played 11 years, they were good regardless of weapons.

Revisionist history. QBs with ratings in the low 80s are by no means “good”.

How well their team did overall was a result of the team around them, but they were consistent in performance.

Not really, they clearly are better with good weapons than without.

Neither of these guys is much different than Jacoby Brissett outside of the fact Jacoby has played on only bad teams after he left the Pats.

Sure but Brissett is a journeyman backup for a reason.

The ball get snapped by the center to the QB, the blocking in front of him determines how much time he has... then and only then do receivers get the ball.

When that ^ changes... let me know.

The QB is the guy who stirs the drink, but O-Linemen are the only position who don't rely on anyone else to be successful... yet everyone else relies on O-Linemen. Football is won in the trenches and under center... weapons can be found later in the draft and in free agency.

And how did that work out for the 2019-2022 Pats…

 

[Huckleberry1]

Ummmm... what? Scroll up a few posts...

"Unless you’re Jake Delhomme with Steve Smith. Or Flacco with Boldin. Dalton and AJ Green. Or even Tebow with D. Thomas and Decker" - SB1

Fair enough. Ither than Tebow I think those are examples of average QB’s who were better with very good receivers, but I can see how you would take that as arguing that great redd CD rivers made bad QB’s good. Tebow flat out sucked, and no one made him good.

 

[sb1]

Fair enough. Ither than Tebow I think those are examples of average QB’s who were better with very good receivers, but I can see how you would take that as arguing that great redd CD rivers made bad QB’s good. Tebow flat out sucked, and no one made him good.

Beat the Steelers with them though. I’ll always appreciate him for that game. lol

Andre Johnson was another one. Briefly made Matt Schaub a below average starter at best into an elite passer who led the league in yardage.

Also no I would not trade the 2025 1st for Lamb. The Pats are rebuilding hopefully the right way now and should not be in the business of trading away high draft picks for anyone at this point in time.

 

[Zuma]

I can think of nearly every position on the Patriots over the years where a great player elevated the player next to him. It happens.

 

[Wozzy]

That’s not what I said at all. I was responding to your point that receivers can’t make QBs. Doesn’t happen often, but it can happen as I mentioned above.

When you suggest WR's made Joe Flacco and Jake Delhomme, you're doing exactly what you say you're not.

Also you didn't prove anything and certainly didn't above. Giving other players credit for both these player's long careers is silly.

 

[Wozzy]

No he was not good but he was still better with those guys than his career without them.

His play stunk and his career ended... wtf are you smoking?

Weapons can make average good or even better than that. Too bad Bill acted differently or maybe he'd still have a job.

Team can make a good QB look better, it can't make bad good.

Nobody mentioned Bill... you're obsessed. He's gone, move on with your life already.

Revisionist history. QBs with ratings in the low 80s are by no means “good”.

When great QB's career rating sits in the 90's, a merely good QB's rating hovers in the 80's.

Not really, they clearly are better with good weapons than without.

QB's are better with better line, weapons, defense and special teams... it's a team sport. You still can't take a bad QB like Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russell and make them good by simply putting a great team around them. Jameis Winston had the best offensive weapons in the NFL in Tampa and posted a historic number of turnovers... having the best weapons in the league didn't make him "good."

Sure but Brissett is a journeyman backup for a reason.

He's also had an eight year career, Tebow lasted three and was out of the league. The difference between good and not good.

And how did that work out for the 2019-2022 Pats…

In 2019 Brady got hurt, beyond that Mac sucked... not sure what this means.

 

[Toofy]

The 2019 patriots were on the decline,
2024 patriots have drafted the QB of the future added some pieces offensively and have a ready-made championship level defense. I'd say if it makes sense do it!

We will get a top 3 pick and you want to trade that for a wr who is 27 years of age and will command 30 million dollars a year for next 3 years.

 

[sb1]

When you suggest WR's made Joe Flacco and Jake Delhomme, you're doing exactly what you say you're not.

Also you didn't prove anything and certainly didn't above. Giving other players credit for both these player's long careers is silly.

Maybe you have a different standard for "good" than I do...you think Brissett is good. I disagree.

Delhomme was adequate at best not "good". 6 seasons as a starter and his TD/INT is a combined +24. That's nothing special at all.
A guy like Smith made him effective and let him win games. Flacco had the grand total of 2 seasons as a starter in Baltimore with a rating of 90 or better. That's not what I call good either. With Boldin he got to the Super Bowl and won it.

Maybe they weren't a "bad to good" story but they are certainly a meh to good story with weapons. Weapons matter. Otherwise teams wouldn't pay for them.

 

[Wozzy]

Fair enough. Ither than Tebow I think those are examples of average QB’s who were better with very good receivers, but I can see how you would take that as arguing that great redd CD rivers made bad QB’s good. Tebow flat out sucked, and no one made him good.

Tebow = bad
Hoyer = average
Flacco = good
Mahomes = great

We have to understand the difference between average, good and great before we can advance this conversation.

 

[Real fan 02]

We will get a top 3 pick and you want to trade that for a wr who is 27 years of age and will command 30 million dollars a year for next 3 years.

Is Justin Jefferson 27?

 

[Toofy]

Is Justin Jefferson 27?

My bad I thought lamb was 27. He is 25

 

[TheRainMaker]

And you'll have to be more specific, Tom's offense posted top ten finishes and he won some Super Bowls with 7th round draft pick and UDFA WR's... when his offensive line was bad or injured, he had to run for his life and in 2019 he got injured.

2006 was a struggle for Tom. 2013 they were overmatched with Gronk out. Brady healthy or not, WR's were running wrong routes in 2019. These are the situations the Chiefs should be running into, but they aren't.

Randy Moss didn't do diddly with Andrew Walters the year prior on the Raiders.... why, shouldn't Randy have made Walters an All Pro?

There are some QB's that have elite talent somewhere on the roster, but it won't change. Curtis Painter in Indy is an example. Brian Hoyer wouldn't have been able to do anything with Moss/Welker/Gronk etc. However, Moss did revitalize the career of Randall Cunningham in 1998 who was an afterthought in the NFL back into an All Pro at 35 years which was considered old as **** back then. And he was just supposed to be the backup.

Not really. Career rating only 81.3. Threw a lot of picks. Take Smith away and those numbers would be ugly. Still got to play in a Super Bowl with Smith and Muhammad.

Agreed. Dehlomme was a marginal NFL QB carried by the Carolina defense and special team blocking so many field goals in 2003. There are many examples of even bad QB's finding ways to get the ball to elite WR's.

 

[sb1]

His play stunk and his career ended... wtf are you smoking?

He beat the Steelers did he not? Thomas made him do that.

Team can make a good QB look better, it can't make bad good.

Lots of examples of meh QB's looking better than they really are with weapons. See Johnson, Andre and what he did for Schaub. Schaub led the league in passing one year with him. Probably because Schaub is awesome and weapons don't matter or something.

Nobody mentioned Bill... you're obsessed. He's gone, move on with your life already.

Truth hurts. Weapons matter. The I'm-smarter-than-you-are contrarian way of building the team ran its course... 4-13 says all that needs to be said.

When great QB's career rating sits in the 90's, a merely good QB's rating hovers in the 80's.

This isn't the 1980's. A rating of 85 wasn't even in the top 30 for passers last season.

QB's are better with better line, weapons, defense and special teams... it's a team sport. You still can't take a bad QB like Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russell and make them good by simply putting a great team around them. Jameis Winston had the best offensive weapons in the NFL in Tampa and posted a historic number of turnovers... having the best weapons in the league didn't make him "good."

So Winston's weapons made him better than he really is. Then I guess we agree after all.

He's also had an eight year career, Tebow lasted three and was out of the league. The difference between good and not good.

Brissett is literally a journeyman backup QB. That's all he ever will be. A good QB should be a starter in my book and he's not a starter.

In 2019 Brady got hurt, beyond that Mac sucked... not sure what this means.

Jones didn't suck in his rookie year. He sucked after that partly (well mostly if we're being honest) because his HC/GM never gave him a chance to develop properly and then decided to pretend there was a QB controversy with another guy who doesn't even belong in the league. The same thing we used to mock other teams for doing to their young QB's.

 

[Wozzy]

Maybe you have a different standard for "good" than I do...you think Brissett is good. I disagree.

See the handy chart provided in my response to Ivan above.

Delhomme was adequate at best not "good". 6 seasons as a starter and his TD/INT is a combined +24. That's nothing special at all.
A guy like Smith made him effective and let him win games. Flacco had the grand total of 2 seasons as a starter in Baltimore with a rating of 90 or better. That's not what I call good either. With Boldin he got to the Super Bowl and won it.

Maybe they weren't a "bad to good" story but they are certainly a meh to good story with weapons. Weapons matter. Otherwise teams wouldn't pay for them.

Team matters, not just weapons.

If the Bengals had an offensive line Burrow would have been a back to back champion in 2021 and 2022 instead of coming close.

 

[sb1]

See the handy chart provided in my response to Ivan above.

Many teams disagree. If Brissett was good, he'd be someone's permanent starter. He isn't, so he's not.

Team matters, not just weapons.

If the Bengals had an offensive line Burrow would have been a back to back champion in 2021 and 2022 instead of coming close.

Yes team matters. Agreed. Shame his HC/GM thought differently and decided to bring in two bozos out of their league to develop his young QB only because being a contrarian is more important than common sense.

 

[Real fan 02]

My bad I thought lamb was 27. He is 25

No worries. I mean to say I'd only be interested in Justin Jefferson if he were available.

 

[sb1]

Tebow = bad
Hoyer = average
Flacco = good
Mahomes = great

We have to understand the difference between average, good and great before we can advance this conversation.

Tebow = bad but he made a few plays at one point thanks to his receivers
Hoyer = not good enough to be a starter
Flacco = adequate starter at best but not anymore
Mahomes = great

 

[Wozzy]

He beat the Steelers did he not? Thomas made him do that.

Tebow sucked, his stats suck... beating one team or even a couple of teams is proof of nothing. If he were even "average" he'd be a backup QB somewhere.

Lots of examples of meh QB's looking better than they really are with weapons. See Johnson, Andre and what he did for Schaub. Schaub led the league in passing one year with him. Probably because Schaub is awesome and weapons don't matter or something.

Given your "Tebow was good" take, you clearly can't differentiate between bad/average/good/great. Maybe you'd better sit this one out.

Truth hurts. Weapons matter. The I'm-smarter-than-you-are contrarian way of building the team ran its course... 4-13 says all that needs to be said.

Seriously... nobody mentioned Bill at all. You are clearly obsessed and irrationally so... seek help.

This isn't the 1980's. A rating of 85 wasn't even in the top 30 for passers last season.

Funny since we're talking about two QB's who starting played in the late 90's and early 2000's... also funny since we're talking about career passer rating not individual seasons. Joe Flacco had a 113 QB Rating one season, he was the Super Bowl MVP... but he isn't good. Sounds legit...

So Winston's weapons made him better than he really is. Then I guess we agree after all.

Winston has been warming a bench ever since... so no.

Brissett is literally a journeyman backup QB. That's all he ever will be. A good QB should be a starter in my book and he's not a starter.

As a starter he has put up good stats, that's why the Patriots hired him as their bridge QB.

Jones didn't suck in his rookie year. He sucked after that partly (well mostly if we're being honest) because his HC/GM never gave him a chance to develop properly and then stopped talking to him completely. The same thing we used to mock other teams for doing to their young QB's.

Mac Jones sucked after 3/4's of his rookie season, prior to that he was merely decent passing less than most starting QB's and with an offense that ran the ball more than most other teams. He came crashing back to earth after the bye week when teams accumulated tape of him.

He sucked from week 13 on as a rookie, he looked like the same player for the next two years. Mac sucks period.