Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[One-If-By-Sea]

My boy Pritch is starting to concern me.

It appears the height and athleticism of the opponents intimidates him. That has not changed year after year after year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It appears the height and athleticism of the opponents intimidates him. That has not changed year after year after year.

Yep. He seemed to be more assertive in preseason which was encouraging but did not carry over.

He is certainly capable.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Yep. He seemed to be more assertive in preseason which was encouraging but did not carry over.

He is certainly capable.

Yes, I also noted his change in preseason but he has now fallen off. 0 - 10 or 0 - 11 on the road trip. Most of the shots are wide open. Head case.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Celtics Box Plus Minus, 2023-24
White 7.6
Tatum 6.8
Porzingis 6.4
Holiday 2.6
Hauser 2.4
Brown -1.7

Celtics Win Shares/48 minutes, 2023-24
Porzingis .290
White .252
Tatum .234
Hauser .168
Holiday .155
Brown .087

Celtics True Shooting Percentage. 2023-24
White .705
Porzingis .687
Tatum .653
Hauser .651
Holiday .552
Brown .534

 

[RobertWeathers]

Celtics Box Plus Minus, 2023-24
White 7.6
Tatum 6.8
Porzingis 6.4
Holiday 2.6
Hauser 2.4
Brown -1.7

Celtics Win Shares/48 minutes, 2023-24
Porzingis .290
White .252
Tatum .234
Hauser .168
Holiday .155
Brown .087

Celtics True Shooting Percentage. 2023-24
White .705
Porzingis .687
Tatum .653
Hauser .651
Holiday .552
Brown .534

God he pissed me off last night.

 

[jimnance]

Like I said before, I only caught the 4th quarter. I checked the stats when I started watching and yup, Browns were gruesome. Most of the 4th he wasn't much better.
Until the last 2 minutes when he was clutch. That is indisputable.
Overall, hes been up and down this year.
No better than he was end of last year.
Which isn't good. But it's still a small sample size that he's sucked- less than a full season. Compared to several years of all star level play. I have faith in Stevens.
Brown is there for a reason.
An I a little concerned? Of course. But it's still way too early for something drastic.
If it keeps up into mid-season, then it's a bona fide problem requiring a change.
Look,@iceicebrady, I like Hauser but he can't replace Brown. He's great in his current role. Make him a starter and after a few weeks you'll be " wtf are we doing?"
Most bench guys are bench guys for a reason. Very very few ever become solid starters. All their flaws get exposed.
He's great at his current role.
If Brown is still terrible by mid-season, Stevens needs to engineer a trade. There's not a replacement on the roster.

 

[jimnance]

I gotta admit one thing though- when Brown gets the ball now, I get the same twinge of cringe when Mac Jones has the ball. I'm expecting something bad to happen and though hoping against it.

 

[aluminum seats]

My boy Pritch is starting to concern me.

It appears the height and athleticism of the opponents intimidates him. That has not changed year after year after year.

I saw somewhere, I forget where, but somebody made a good point, that he seems to be hung up between not being able to figure out whether to create offense or to look for his shot. He's in a pretzel

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Like I said before, I only caught the 4th quarter. I checked the stats when I started watching and yup, Browns were gruesome. Most of the 4th he wasn't much better.
Until the last 2 minutes when he was clutch. That is indisputable.
Overall, hes been up and down this year.
No better than he was end of last year.
Which isn't good. But it's still a small sample size that he's sucked- less than a full season. Compared to several years of all star level play. I have faith in Stevens.
Brown is there for a reason.
An I a little concerned? Of course. But it's still way too early for something drastic.
If it keeps up into mid-season, then it's a bona fide problem requiring a change.
Look,@iceicebrady, I like Hauser but he can't replace Brown. He's great in his current role. Make him a starter and after a few weeks you'll be " wtf are we doing?"
Most bench guys are bench guys for a reason. Very very few ever become solid starters. All their flaws get exposed.
He's great at his current role.
If Brown is still terrible by mid-season, Stevens needs to engineer a trade. There's not a replacement on the roster.

Hauser can absolutely replace Brown.

-Better ball movement
-Better shooter
-Better defender
-More shots for JT, KP, JH, DW
-Better overall efficiency
-Team won’t lose games because of the huge inefficiency crater from a guy who takes 20 shots per game and often looks lost and unmotivated

Look, addition by subtraction occurs all the time in the NBA. Jaylen Brown currently is hurting the team but is playing second most minutes. Because his all-around game is so bad, he’d need to shoot over 50% merely to break even. It isn’t going to happen consistently even if he has hot stretches which he will.

Having a guy like Hauser, who is simply a solid spot shooter, would be an ideal fit for an offense with multiple star players who like to create shots and are constantly changing the spacing, whereas an iso player like Brown doesn’t fit, and he is a low efficiency iso player to boot.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Two plays to illustrate how much he hurts the team. The first is embarrassingly bad and cowardly.

The second illustrates why I keep saying his basketball IQ is so low and his off ball defense is a joke. There’s one second left and he continues to stand there (he plays defense standing straight up all the time.). Maxxey starts breaking towards basket. He stays out near 3 point line to prevent a pass to Embiid like he’s going to catch and shoot a 35 ft 3 pointer with almost no time left. He is so bad at help defense, pick and roll switching, etc, and it’s constant. Subtle things but they add up. Heard last year team was 15 pts better per 100 possessions with Brown off floor. 15 points.

Once you “see it” with Brown you won’t see him the same way. This is why like a quarter of Celtics fans are considered haters, but it’s just that they’re paying attention to things besides point totals.

I wasn’t a huge hater before because they lacked offense so having a guy who might go off for 40 points was understandable. Now, though, the much more likely scenario is he costs them games they’d otherwise have won.

 

[Real fan 02]

No. Pritch and Hauser are serviceable off the bench. Kornet is fine as a 5th big.

Champ won't play at all. He might be the only one.

The bench isn't producing like I thought.. I know it's early and a very long season.. I'm concerned about where they are come playoff time rather than all the razzle and dazzle. However I'm sure Steven's know we need to add another Big man for depth.

 

[jimnance]

Hauser can absolutely replace Brown.

-Better ball movement
-Better shooter
-Better defender
-More shots for JT, KP, JH, DW
-Better overall efficiency
-Team won’t lose games because of the huge inefficiency crater from a guy who takes 20 shots per game and often looks lost and unmotivated

Look, addition by subtraction occurs all the time in the NBA. Jaylen Brown currently is hurting the team but is playing second most minutes. Because his all-around game is so bad, he’d need to shoot over 50% merely to break even. It isn’t going to happen consistently even if he has hot stretches which he will.

Having a guy like Hauser, who is simply a solid spot shooter, would be an ideal fit for an offense with multiple star players who like to create shots and are constantly changing the spacing, whereas an iso player like Brown doesn’t fit, and he is a low efficiency iso player to boot.

Disagree. Hauser can do what he does well because he's a part time player playing limited minutes with a narrowly defined role. If you make him a starter to the tune of 30 mpg, all his stats will be much worse.
It's different. I played for a long time in advanced leagues that included many ex- nba players, active Division 1 college players and some active nba players working their easy back from injury.
I was a point guard and if you know much about hoops you know most point guards are the qbs of their team. That was even more true back in the day than it is now as the nba is becoming more and more " position-less". A point guard like Magic or Stockton has among the highest bball iq of anyone in the world.
So with all due respect, there's not much I don't "see" on the court. And again,with all due respect, I probably see more than you do. Some of your vitriol is a little over the top ,man. Were you around for the Sidney Wicks/ Curtis Rowe era? ?That was some horrific basketball.
I agree with a lot of what you post about Brown. But it's still not a big sample size.
It needs more time. Let me ask you this: how did you feel about Browns game 2 year ago? 3 years ago? 4 years ago?
There a much bigger track record of being a good player than how he's playing now. So what happened to him? I don't know. Neither do you or anyone else not directly part of the Celtics. We just don't see enough. What's he like at practice? How is his work ethic,does he spend a lot of time at the gym working on his game when he's mor required to be there? I wish I knew but I don't. My educated guess is he's not putting in enough time on his own to improve his game.
I'm not saying it's the big contract, but his game has regressed ever since he signed it.
Look,he may well play himself off this team before long. Stevens knows,what he's doing. He's got a much better handle on the team and all the players than any of us. And he's about winning. So if Brown keeps spiraling downward, he won't be here. But that time is not now.
It will be at some point this season, but not now.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Disagree. Hauser can do what he does well because he's a part time player playing limited minutes with a narrowly defined role. If you make him a starter to the tune of 30 mpg, all his stats will be much worse.

Sure his efficiency stats may decrease with more volume. But I’m not suggesting he take on Brown’s role of jacking up 22 shots per game. Many great teams have had a starter who is more of a steady eddie sharpshooter, or guys who only take a few shots but just exist as a steady option. The key is the Celtics have 4 scorers, so they can afford a 5th guy who just does one thing well.

It's different. I played for a long time in advanced leagues that included many ex- nba players, active Division 1 college players and some active nba players working their easy back from injury.
I was a point guard and if you know much about hoops you know most point guards are the qbs of their team. That was even more true back in the day than it is now as the nba is becoming more and more " position-less". A point guard like Magic or Stockton has among the highest bball iq of anyone in the world.

I was also a point guard and have played a lot and seen a lot.

So with all due respect, there's not much I don't "see" on the court. And again,with all due respect, I probably see more than you do. Some of your vitriol is a little over the top ,man.

The stats I’ve posted have backed up exactly what I’ve been saying. I don’t think you see more than me. I’m kind of shocked someone who knows the game so well isn’t seeing the huge problems with Brown. His negative box plus minus, and negative metrics virtually everywhere, suggest he’s bottoming out.

Were you around for the Sidney Wicks/ Curtis Rowe era? ?That was some horrific basketball.

No. I’ve seen plenty of good and bad basketball. That’s irrelevant. I’m not saying the Celtics are bad or the front office sucks. The contrary, I love these moves. Brown just sucks though and is ruining it.

I agree with a lot of what you post about Brown. But it's still not a big sample size.

Agree but it’s very clear this guy isn’t meant to play in a ball movement offense like this.

It needs more time. Let me ask you this: how did you feel about Browns game 2 year ago? 3 years ago? 4 years ago?

I didn’t follow them as closely but I didn’t love his game. But the Celtics offensively didn’t have a lot of go to guys. Forcing up shots seemed almost appropriate. Sometimes it takes surrounding a guy with good teammates to realize he’s better than you thought. Sometimes you realize he’s worse. That appears to be the situation here. He is lost and useless with a strong offensive players who know how to create.

There a much bigger track record of being a good player than how he's playing now. So what happened to him?

There’s always been negative trends with him, just not this extreme. The team has won 67% of their games without him. Their net rating improves without him. This has been noted for years. Those are big things, not nitpicking nerd formulas.

I don't know. Neither do you or anyone else not directly part of the Celtics. We just don't see enough. What's he like at practice? How is his work ethic,does he spend a lot of time at the gym working on his game when he's mor required to be there? I wish I knew but I don't. My educated guess is he's not putting in enough time on his own to improve his game.

Agree. But he’s in year 8. There’s not much room for improvement, and if he isn’t working towards it, even worse. Either way this isn’t a JV team looking for guys to develop confidence over 8 years. He’s a $300M player.

I'm not saying it's the big contract, but his game has regressed ever since he signed it.

Probably plays a part in it. His body language is pouty and he half asses everything that doesn’t relate to him personally scoring points.

Look,he may well play himself off this team before long. Stevens knows,what he's doing. He's got a much better handle on the team and all the players than any of us.

Not always. GMs and coaches have other pressures. Benching a former star player isn’t easy. Not to mention what it could do to the locker room. But whatever, I just want to see them win and be at their most efficient.

And he's about winning. So if Brown keeps spiraling downward, he won't be here. But that time is not now.

Hope it’s as soon as possible.

It will be at some point this season, but not now.

Crossing my fingers. The team would be either 6-1 or 7-0 right now if he weren’t a part of it.

 

[jimnance]

Sure his efficiency stats may decrease with more volume. But I’m not suggesting he take on Brown’s role of jacking up 22 shots per game. Many great teams have had a starter who is more of a steady eddie sharpshooter, or guys who only take a few shots but just exist as a steady option. The key is the Celtics have 4 scorers, so they can afford a 5th guy who just does one thing well.

I was also a point guard and have played a lot and seen a lot.

The stats I’ve posted have backed up exactly what I’ve been saying. I don’t think you see more than me. I’m kind of shocked someone who knows the game so well isn’t seeing the huge problems with Brown. His negative box plus minus, and negative metrics virtually everywhere, suggest he’s bottoming out.

No. I’ve seen plenty of good and bad basketball. That’s irrelevant. I’m not saying the Celtics are bad or the front office sucks. The contrary, I love these moves. Brown just sucks though and is ruining it.

Agree but it’s very clear this guy isn’t meant to play in a ball movement offense like this.

I didn’t follow them as closely but I didn’t love his game. But the Celtics offensively didn’t have a lot of go to guys. Forcing up shots seemed almost appropriate. Sometimes it takes surrounding a guy with good teammates to realize he’s better than you thought. Sometimes you realize he’s worse. That appears to be the situation here. He is lost and useless with a strong offensive players who know how to create.

There’s always been negative trends with him, just not this extreme. The team has won 67% of their games without him. Their net rating improves without him. This has been noted for years. Those are big things, not nitpicking nerd formulas.

Agree. But he’s in year 8. There’s not much room for improvement, and if he isn’t working towards it, even worse. Either way this isn’t a JV team looking for guys to develop confidence over 8 years. He’s a $300M player.

Probably plays a part in it. His body language is pouty and he half asses everything that doesn’t relate to him personally scoring points.

Not always. GMs and coaches have other pressures. Benching a former star player isn’t easy. Not to mention what it could do to the locker room. But whatever, I just want to see them win and be at their most efficient.

Hope it’s as soon as possible.

Crossing my fingers. The team would be either 6-1 or 7-0 right now if he weren’t a part of it.

Excellent response. Thanks for taking the time to state the case. Well done.
I basically agree with everything you posted. I just think the C's need a little more time to see if he can turn things around. It's only been 7 games with 2 new starters and Brown is obviously struggling with exactly what his role is.
Ego probably plays into it. He has to know this is Tatum's team. He's nowhere near JT's level, never will be. Jrue and Porzi both are players that are easy to play with and Brown should be getting easier opportunities to score, albeit fewer ones.
And he is. But he can't hit a shot.
I don't know what the trade market would be nor the financial repercussions.
But I have faith in Stevens. He's not going to allow one player to destroy a title run.
On an emotional level, I feel like you do.
His game has made me ill for almost a year. I'm still holding out small hope that he will adjust and adapt and be able to fit into this team as a positive contributor.
It took me half a season to finally give up on Mac Jones and realize Belichick is done. I'm heading that way on Brown.
Just not there yet. But give me a few more games of his dumbassery and I will be.

 

[jimnance]

Strong 1st half for the C's!
Excellent ball movement- makes me think Mazzula was harping on it at practice.
Jaylen Brown was superb. 21 pts all in the flow of the offense.
The other problem child, Pritchard also great 1st half.
Tatum en fuego 2nd qtr after being blanked in the 1st.
Jrue doing Jrue good things.
Boys just short of another 70 pt 1st half.
I'm enjoying myself.

 

[jimnance]

Nice win. Nets missing some starters but they're still scrappy.
Total team win.
Brown,Jrue,Tatum,DWhite,Kornet,Hauser,Pritchard all good to great.
Pritch 5 count em 5 offensive boards. He's a power forward.
Kornet damn great game.
Great ball movement for 3 out 4 quarters.
Best team stat: almost every 3 was assisted.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Two plays to illustrate how much he hurts the team. The first is embarrassingly bad and cowardly.

The second illustrates why I keep saying his basketball IQ is so low and his off ball defense is a joke. There’s one second left and he continues to stand there (he plays defense standing straight up all the time.). Maxxey starts breaking towards basket. He stays out near 3 point line to prevent a pass to Embiid like he’s going to catch and shoot a 35 ft 3 pointer with almost no time left. He is so bad at help defense, pick and roll switching, etc, and it’s constant. Subtle things but they add up. Heard last year team was 15 pts better per 100 possessions with Brown off floor. 15 points.

Once you “see it” with Brown you won’t see him the same way. This is why like a quarter of Celtics fans are considered haters, but it’s just that they’re paying attention to things besides point totals.

I wasn’t a huge hater before because they lacked offense so having a guy who might go off for 40 points was understandable. Now, though, the much more likely scenario is he costs them games they’d otherwise have won.

I'm far from a JB apologist, as I somewhat agree with the spirit of your stance on JB, but as for the plays, 1) I don't mind the self preservation versus a 280lb dude with a head of steam (giving up 60lbs) during an unimportant reg season game. During a playoff game? Take the hit. 2) Embiid is a lifetime 34% shooter from 3, shooting 38% this year so far, so yeah there's still that threat, so if JB started breaking in early, Embiid would've stepped in closer for the shot (even given the time left). Plus there was an All NBA defender on TM.

 

[jimnance]

Another strong game from Brown tonight.
That's back to back. Great game last night. Very good game tonight.
Encouraging sign but we need to see consistency.
More importantly, Celtics with another dominant performance. Way to bounce back from 2 losses.
Like I said before, the Celtics get the good version of Brown,they're the best team in the nba.
He doesn't need to be Superman every night, just play with some intensity and hustle, limit turnovers, effort on defense,take good shots. He's done that last 2 nights. Hopefully it continues but I watch with a jaundiced eye. He developed some bad habits. I don't expect perfection, just show improvement and that you actually give a **** and the C's will be golden.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Another strong game from Brown tonight.
That's back to back. Great game last night. Very good game tonight.
Encouraging sign but we need to see consistency.
More importantly, Celtics with another dominant performance. Way to bounce back from 2 losses.
Like I said before, the Celtics get the good version of Brown,they're the best team in the nba.
He doesn't need to be Superman every night, just play with some intensity and hustle, limit turnovers, effort on defense,take good shots. He's done that last 2 nights. Hopefully it continues but I watch with a jaundiced eye. He developed some bad habits. I don't expect perfection, just show improvement and that you actually give a **** and the C's will be golden.

I’m glad they won and don’t want to be a cloud of negativity, but Jaylen Brown isn’t really capable of playing a good game, only a neutral game. It’s almost unfathomable that he and Tatum played most of their minutes together but Tatum had a +42 and Brown a +9 (Brown was at 0 at one point in 4th quarter before Celtics went on a run.)



It was much of the same story last night. Again a +/- that lags way behind.



As I said, if he shoots efficiently, he’s basically a neutral player who won’t hurt the team overall but won’t help much either. If he shoots poorly, he’s a massive liability (see both losses.)

He seems to thrive in games where the other team is obliterated by the Celtics talent creating many wide open looks, easy mismatches, and gimmie layups. Almost like an all star game. His atrocious defense, ridiculous turnovers, and black hole iso offensive style become less of a factor in the final outcome.

If you add up the +/- the last two games:

Tatum +70
Holiday +48
Porzingis +32
White +21
Brown +15

It would be almost impossible to have a negative +/- given the other players +/- who boost him up.

Keep in mind this is even with him having two high percentage field goal games. At his best, he’s still their worst starter.

 

[Kdo5]

I’m glad they won and don’t want to be a cloud of negativity, but Jaylen Brown isn’t really capable of playing a good game, only a neutral game. It’s almost unfathomable that he and Tatum played most of their minutes together but Tatum had a +42 and Brown a +9 (Brown was at 0 at one point in 4th quarter before Celtics went on a run.)



It was much of the same story last night. Again a +/- that lags way behind.



As I said, if he shoots efficiently, he’s basically a neutral player who won’t hurt the team overall but won’t help much either. If he shoots poorly, he’s a massive liability (see both losses.)

He seems to thrive in games where the other team is obliterated by the Celtics talent creating many wide open looks, easy mismatches, and gimmie layups. Almost like an all star game. His atrocious defense, ridiculous turnovers, and black hole iso offensive style become less of a factor in the final outcome.

If you add up the +/- the last two games:

Tatum +70
Holiday +48
Porzingis +32
White +21
Brown +15

It would be almost impossible to have a negative +/- given the other players +/- who boost him up.

Keep in mind this is even with him having two high percentage field goal games. At his best, he’s still their worst starter.

I’m sorry you can throw all the numbers at me but my eye balls tell a completely different story. Jaylen Brown is a major contributor and the most important piece aside from Tatum and he always has been.

He is consistently an elite scorer who solid defense, makes clutch plays and brings a lot of energy. We wouldn’t have made it to the Eastern Conference finals three times without him. We wouldn’t have made it to the NBA finals without him. He was the best Celtics player during those finals.

Yes he has some issues such as reckless dribbling in traffic but everything else is good to elite. Nothing about the Celtics drives me crazier than the people who are trying to tell us that Jaylen Brown isn’t really that important to the success of the team.

People are so back and forth. During the Hawks series last year player were proclaiming Jaylen Brown is better than Jayson Tatum. But now he’s not even the second best player on the team.


Side note about Tatum having a +41 versus Jaylen only being a +9. That is a joke of a statistic without context. +41 makes it sound like Tatum had a mind blowing performance. He had an average game by his standards. Also Marcus Smart was the +/- stud. Doesn’t mean much when your team is really good overall.