Mac and the "It Factor"

[mike_usagisan]

So then why are we going back to the well with a QB that Bill picked in the top 15 if Bill is so good at developing QBs? If you guys are fine with our potential top 5 QB turning out like Jimmy G, Cassel, Stidham, or Hoyer then have fun with that.

Which of those were picked top 5? For where they were picked, they turned out great. How many starter-caliber QBs/solid backups are there out there who weren't picked in the first round? Not many.

As for Mac, look at Mac's class. There's a good chance none of them are going to turn the page and become good to great starters. We took the 5th one of that group rather than trading a second for Jimmy G. As with all draft picks, you hope they develop. But they don't always develop. That doesn't mean you don't try again.

 

[203Pat]

Which of those were picked top 5? For where they were picked, they turned out great. How many starter-caliber QBs/solid backups are there out there who weren't picked in the first round? Not many.

As for Mac, look at Mac's class. There's a good chance none of them are going to turn the page and become good to great starters. We took the 5th one of that group rather than trading a second for Jimmy G. As with all draft picks, you hope they develop. But they don't always develop. That doesn't mean you don't try again.

My thing is even if we end up with Caleb Williams, Bill is going to continue doing what he always does. Pay a bunch of special teamers, draft high on defense or miss on the offensive players, and supplement the offense with B and C level skill position players. Why do we want to trust he will do anything different than he has done for the last 20 years? I am ready to turn the page. If we take a QB top 5 and Bill has another 2 bad years then we fire Bill heading into the new QB's year 3 and he starts all over. Those are the things that kill young QB's. Constant switching of coaches, coordinators, and lack of continuity. I would rather start fresh all the way around.

 

[Jim Beankie]

He was hurt a lot, so it wasn't really a full three years. You guys seem to forget Tom had games with 3 TO's and 4, let's see how Mac bounces back before we throw him out to the wolves.

Oh Pepperidge Farms remembers... that's why I'm all for seeing Mac back out there. For me, it's just discussing what would it take for BB to finally take Mac out for good. Mac's seeking out counsel outside the org last year (along with other negative intangibles...) has got to mean he doesn't have much more room for error.

 

[archstanton543]

Oh Pepperidge Farms remembers... that's why I'm all for seeing Mac back out there. For me, it's just discussing what would it take for BB to finally take Mac out for good. Mac's seeking out counsel outside the org last year (along with other negative intangibles...) has got to mean he doesn't have much more room for error.

People are overblowing that. The kid was trying to get some help anywhere he could get it because he wasn't getting it here.

 

[mike_usagisan]

My thing is even if we end up with Caleb Williams, Bill is going to continue doing what he always does. Pay a bunch of special teamers, draft high on defense or miss on the offensive players, and supplement the offense with B and C level skill position players. Why do we want to trust he will do anything different than he has done for the last 20 years? I am ready to turn the page. If we take a QB top 5 and Bill has another 2 bad years then we fire Bill heading into the new QB's year 3 and he starts all over. Those are the things that kill young QB's. Constant switching of coaches, coordinators, and lack of continuity. I would rather start fresh all the way around.

I think you're being a little hyperbolic. Bill drafted Mac, went out and got Henry and Bourne for him (among other high-priced options who just didn't work out). He drafted Thornton, who has amazing speed. I don't blame Bill for the fact that the health of the OL took a major hit in camp. I think if it were healthier, we'd be running a lot better, which would make things easier elsewhere.

This is the same guy who went and got both Moss and Welker after a year of terrible WR play.

Do I think they've made some terrible decisions? Of course. Moving Meyers is looking like a catastrophe and the lack of a 3rd down back is killing our drives this year.

 

[Jim Beankie]

People are overblowing that. The kid was trying to get some help anywhere he could get it because he wasn't getting it here.

I definitely don't blame him. It's just what did the boss really think? That's the part that's most important.

 

[archstanton543]

I definitely don't blame him. It's just what did the boss really think? That's the part that's most important.

Well, Mac's still the starting QB so I can't imagine BB being that upset about it.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Well, Mac's still the starting QB so I can't imagine BB being that upset about it.

Considering he was the Pats' only QB some time between cutdown day and Week 1, you have a fair point.

 

[p8ryts]

I think you're being a little hyperbolic. Bill drafted Mac, went out and got Henry and Bourne for him (among other high-priced options who just didn't work out). He drafted Thornton, who has amazing speed. I don't blame Bill for the fact that the health of the OL took a major hit in camp. I think if it were healthier, we'd be running a lot better, which would make things easier elsewhere.

This is the same guy who went and got both Moss and Welker after a year of terrible WR play.

Do I think they've made some terrible decisions? Of course. Moving Meyers is looking like a catastrophe and the lack of a 3rd down back is killing our drives this year.

I agree with your hyperbolic characterization. I don't think the lack of a 3rd down back is killing us. First BOB doesn't seem to use the 3rd down back. Second, Mac doesn't seem to recognize the 5 yard out is open. Third, he can't seem to throw a decent check down.

 

[203Pat]

I think you're being a little hyperbolic. Bill drafted Mac, went out and got Henry and Bourne for him (among other high-priced options who just didn't work out). He drafted Thornton, who has amazing speed. I don't blame Bill for the fact that the health of the OL took a major hit in camp. I think if it were healthier, we'd be running a lot better, which would make things easier elsewhere.

This is the same guy who went and got both Moss and Welker after a year of terrible WR play.

Do I think they've made some terrible decisions? Of course. Moving Meyers is looking like a catastrophe and the lack of a 3rd down back is killing our drives this year.

All the problems are on Bill. All roads lead back to Bill. Bill whiffed on 2 third round TEs in 2020 after basically ignoring the position since Gronk retired and paid up for Henry. Bourne is a solid 2 or 3 type guy on a good offense but here is asked to do too much for what he is which has been a recurring theme around here for a while now. I completely blame Bill and Bill only for the offensive line. The RT situation he came into the summer with is borderline malpractice and he drafted a guard (a guard!) in the first round and injury or not, he isn't playing well if he can even get on the field. Bill went and got Moss and Welker and it worked. It was a home run. He bought in on a depressed asset and a diamond in the rough and hit big. Bill tried a version of that in 2021 free agency and didn't have as much luck.

Bill has straddled the rebuilding/reloading line since Brady left and bungled a lot of the decisions he made. He should have got a look at Stidham down the stretch in 2020 not just to see if Stidham could at least be a backup but worst case scenario we lose some games and get a better pick. He also paid a guard $14 million in a lost year and cost us a third round comp pick. On top of that he didn't sell high on Stephon Gilmore when it was clear that team was going nowhere and held onto him until he sold him off for peanuts the next season. 2021 he decided to reload and in free agency with mixed results bringing in retreads like Kyle Van Noy and Jamie Collins to be progress stoppers for young guys. Then last season he made one of the most asinine coaching decisions in NFL history with Patricia. Now this year we are 1-3 and our offense looks worse week after week. We are heading in the wrong direction and it's clear at this point Bill doesn't know what to do with Mac and the offensive personnel. I don't want to see another 1st round QB wasted and another 4 years down the tubes because we don't want to admit the game has passed Bill by.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I agree with your hyperbolic characterization. I don't think the lack of a 3rd down back is killing us. First BOB doesn't seem to use the 3rd down back. Second, Mac doesn't seem to recognize the 5 yard out is open. Third, he can't seem to throw a decent check down.

You could be right. I just remember the year White went down and Bolden filled in. Mac would always look for Meyers or him on 3rd down, and they both helped to extend a lot of drives. We're just not seeing that anymore.

 

[mike_usagisan]

All the problems are on Bill. All roads lead back to Bill. Bill whiffed on 2 third round TEs in 2020 after basically ignoring the position since Gronk retired and paid up for Henry. Bourne is a solid 2 or 3 type guy on a good offense but here is asked to do too much for what he is which has been a recurring theme around here for a while now. I completely blame Bill and Bill only for the offensive line. The RT situation he came into the summer with is borderline malpractice and he drafted a guard (a guard!) in the first round and injury or not, he isn't playing well if he can even get on the field. Bill went and got Moss and Welker and it worked. It was a home run. He bought in on a depressed asset and a diamond in the rough and hit big. Bill tried a version of that in 2021 free agency and didn't have as much luck.

Bill has straddled the rebuilding/reloading line since Brady left and bungled a lot of the decisions he made. He should have got a look at Stidham down the stretch in 2020 not just to see if Stidham could at least be a backup but worst case scenario we lose some games and get a better pick. He also paid a guard $14 million in a lost year and cost us a third round comp pick. On top of that he didn't sell high on Stephon Gilmore when it was clear that team was going nowhere and held onto him until he sold him off for peanuts the next season. 2021 he decided to reload and in free agency with mixed results bringing in retreads like Kyle Van Noy and Jamie Collins to be progress stoppers for young guys. Then last season he made one of the most asinine coaching decisions in NFL history with Patricia. Now this year we are 1-3 and our offense looks worse week after week. We are heading in the wrong direction and it's clear at this point Bill doesn't know what to do with Mac and the offensive personnel. I don't want to see another 1st round QB wasted and another 4 years down the tubes because we don't want to admit the game has passed Bill by.

You make a lot of good points. I think he's also done an amazing job on defense and this year's draft is looking pretty great so far. I think he's tried to make the offense work and a lot of the moves haven't worked out and Mac's development has gone down the tubes.

I think the OL is mostly injury. Reiff is on IR. Anderson had some kind of freak illness problem. McDermott was a low-cost flier. Sow is developing pretty well. Lowe is a low cost piece who also seems to be developing. Most of the high-priced OT who are on new teams this year are turning out to be terrible.

You think that his failures plus earlier failures are reasons he should be fired. Ok. If he gets fired, I won't say it's not deserved. But if Kraft decides to keep him, I'm not that worried about him trying to fix the offense, either.

 

[203Pat]

You make a lot of good points. I think he's also done an amazing job on defense and this year's draft is looking pretty great so far. I think he's tried to make the offense work and a lot of the moves haven't worked out and Mac's development has gone down the tubes.

I think the OL is mostly injury. Reiff is on IR. Anderson had some kind of freak illness problem. McDermott was a low-cost flier. Sow is developing pretty well. Lowe is a low cost piece who also seems to be developing. Most of the high-priced OT who are on new teams this year are turning out to be terrible.

You think that his failures plus earlier failures are reasons he should be fired. Ok. If he gets fired, I won't say it's not deserved. But if Kraft decides to keep him, I'm not that worried about him trying to fix the offense, either.

I agree with you on the defense. He has built a solid defense that is probably going to struggle now with their two best players out for the year but I think Bill can scheme up a defensive game plan as well as anyone.

As for the offense it scares me to think Bill thought Reily Reiff, who immediately moved to guard in camp before getting hurt, Calvin Anderson, who can't beat out Vederian "Marshall Newhouse 2.0" Anderson or McDermott could be our RT. Dawand Jones was sitting right there in round 4 and we decided to take a backup center that apparently can't play anywhere but tackle based on his usage in camp. Jones might have had some questionable interviews but it's the 4th round? Who gives a sh*t if he flakes out in a year or two? He is basically a Trent Brown clone and by all accounts has been solid in Cleveland. Neglecting tackle in the draft while taking 114 interior lineman is just confusing. At this point I am just venting but I want the Bill Belichick era to end. Maybe I will regret saying that a couple years after Bill is gone but right now I just want to see us move forward and out of the dynasty shadow.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I agree with you on the defense. He has built a solid defense that is probably going to struggle now with their two best players out for the year but I think Bill can scheme up a defensive game plan as well as anyone.

As for the offense it scares me to think Bill thought Reily Reiff, who immediately moved to guard in camp before getting hurt, Calvin Anderson, who can't beat out Vederian "Marshall Newhouse 2.0" Anderson or McDermott could be our RT. Dawand Jones was sitting right there in round 4 and we decided to take a backup center that apparently can't play anywhere but tackle based on his usage in camp. Jones might have had some questionable interviews but it's the 4th round? Who gives a sh*t if he flakes out in a year or two? He is basically a Trent Brown clone and by all accounts has been solid in Cleveland. Neglecting tackle in the draft while taking 114 interior lineman is just confusing. At this point I am just venting but I want the Bill Belichick era to end. Maybe I will regret saying that a couple years after Bill is gone but right now I just want to see us move forward and out of the dynasty shadow.

Yeah, I wanted Jones too, but 32 teams passed on Jones for several rounds, too. There's something rotten there. If he turns out great, great, but I'm not going to flay Bill for something that every team knew about.

 

[condon84]

Not only does the guy lack arm strength, pocket awareness, and poise, his mental fortitude has to be questioned. Throwing tantrums last year on the field, going outside of the organization to consult other coaches and most recently quitting on Sunday night while your defense is playing hard. It's nuts how long of a leash Belichick has with Mac. A lot of former Patriots have questioned Mac's behavior but somehow Bill will keep putting him out there. It makes you think if Mo Lewis hadn't intervened, at what point would Belichick given Brady a chance? Until Bledsoe's contract runs it's course?

The culture Belichick cultivated with Brady as his ring leader is going down the toilet. And I'm a pro Belichick Pats fan as anyone. But I've seen enough to say he really should be on the hot seat.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Not only does the guy lack arm strength, pocket awareness, and poise, his mental fortitude has to be questioned. Throwing tantrums last year on the field, going outside of the organization to consult other coaches and most recently quitting on Sunday night while your defense is playing hard. It's nuts how long of a leash Belichick has with Mac. A lot of former Patriots have questioned Mac's behavior but somehow Bill will keep putting him out there. It makes you think if Mo Lewis hadn't intervened, at what point would Belichick given Brady a chance? Until Bledsoe's contract runs it's course?

The culture Belichick cultivated with Brady as his ring leader is going down the toilet. And I'm a pro Belichick Pats fan as anyone. But I've seen enough to say he really should be on the hot seat.

I think if he had a better option than Mac, he probably would have turned the page. The problem is that they clearly don't think Zappe is anything special.

With Bledsoe, there are reports that Brady had played better. There is no one in camp or on the roster who has played better in practice yet.

I thought this third year was make-it-or-break-it with Mac and the Pats, and it's not going great.

 

[condon84]

I think if he had a better option than Mac, he probably would have turned the page. The problem is that they clearly don't think Zappe is anything special.

With Bledsoe, there are reports that Brady had played better. There is no one in camp or on the roster who has played better in practice yet.

I thought this third year was make-it-or-break-it with Mac and the Pats, and it's not going great.

Give Grier a chance. Hell, the best Pats QB play we've seen all year was Malik in that short cameo. Yeah it was with scrubs but would Mac have fared any better? Malik used his legs to make that drive happen. Mac would have eaten sacks where Malik made plays.

How much worse does it have to be? Sunday was abysmal.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Give Grier a chance. Hell, the best QB play we've seen all year was Malik in that short cameo. How much worse does it have to be? Sunday was abysmal.

It has to get a lot worse. Sorry.

 

[condon84]

It has to get a lot worse. Sorry.

Like 70-3 worse? That could happen in a few weeks against the Dolphins. Will that be enough?

 

[1960Pats]

These things probably happened before in the NFL, I just don't recall seeing them happen:

1. I had never seen a QB put both hands on a defender's ankle and twist it in frustration from turning the ball over, quite like Mac did with Burns.

2. I had never seen a player react to spraining his ankle quite like Mac did early in '22. I've seen people take a bullet wound more stoically.

3. I had never seen a QB fail at a QB sneak and ignore the whistle for as long as Mac did against the Jete. No one else was playing the down anymore when he oh-so-awkwardly ran into a linebacker 2 yards away. There's playing through the whistle, and there's being petulant about failing. This was indisputably petulant.

4. I had never seen a QB accused of hitting some other guy's junk---not while down in a pile fighting for the ball, but after getting up from an embarrassing failed play.


I think there are 2 Macs.

There's "Before **** Hits The Fan" Mac. He is good at practice, film room junkie, hard working, heavily invested, avid learner, high motor, great teammate, brings guys together, handles himself well.

The other is "Heat of The Moment" Mac. This Mac panics under pressure. He handles failure by twisting a guy's ankle, punching another guy's junk, or crashing into a defender who's just standing casually long after a play is over. He panics when sensing rushers, moves right into rushers that wouldn't have gotten to him, throws off his backfoot unnecessarily as if he had a cannon, scrambles like a chicken with its head cut off, and... I could go on all day.

One side of Mac is truly great. The other side completely ruins everything and I'm not sure the fix is coachable.

It must be tough for coaches. Maybe that's why Bill seems more frustrated. Speaking of which, how about Daniel Jones' terrible TO vs Seattle. That one turned the game into a rout and the look on Daboll's face was priceless.

I go back to the 50's with the NYFL and there are plenty of things that are different now, at least to me. This is 65 years later. But yes, I don't recall those type of responses either. Mac kind of comes across as soft-ish.