BB THE GOAT

[TheRainMaker]

It's' interesting how one simple post citing a poll that Bill is the "greatest" and it triggers 12 pages of arguing over it. Pats fans has to be the only fan base upset about the legacy of the HC. I won't get many answers on this because a lot of posters are taking a break for the offseason, but I'm curious of what bothers them.

 

[crawhammer]

Pshhh… you were too young to remember early Patriots dynasty years, you’re trying to tell us you remember the Steel Curtain?

The Steelers were a power run team with a dominating defense, Bradshaw was a game manager who never led the NFL in passing or efficiency once, He threw as many INT’s as he did TD’s.

Laughable…

Comments on my age again . You don't know my age. Are we sharing ages here? I didn't know that was a thing. How old are you so I can weave some ageisms into my posts.

Bradshaw had balls of steel and was a clutch performer (which I realize is lost on you). He was terrific in all 4 of his Super Bowl games. 100+ passer rating in each game with a 112.8 average. He outdueled Staubach twice in Super Bowls including the SB 8 35-31 shootout. Bradshaw was an NFL MVP and he led the league in TDs, TD%, and Y/A multiple times. 14-5 in the postseason with 4 rings and again a stellar Super Bowl performer. He's an all-time great NFL QB.

 

[crawhammer]

So coaching matters when it diminishes a guy people are saying will surpass Brady one day… but all the coaches in Tom’s career were along for the ride. Again… solid logic.

No. If Mahomes continues to light it up every regular season and he reaches 8 rings then he'll surpass Brady. Good luck.

 

[crawhammer]

Foles was never, and will never be exceptional. Prior to getting hurt Carson Wentz was Vegas front runner for the NFL MVP award. The Eagles team was exceptional in 2017. That's how Tom Brady put up the single greatest stat line in Super Bowl history but lost to Nick Foles... a career backup.

Exceptional teams is how Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different journeyman QB's. It's why just "good" Eli Manning beat Tom Brady twice... Tom Coughlin deserves to be in the HOF for building exceptional teams. There was nothing special about all these QB's who won rings. Once is an outlier, a multitude of occurrences isn't. If Joe Flacco can do it, you don't need a magical unicorn, you need a magical team.

Foles was great in SB 52 against a self-depleted defense. Foles was also great in the NFCCG. He had a stellar postseason in 2017.

Eli Manning puts his brother to shame regarding postseason play. Eli was brilliant in both of his SB runs.

Flacco had one of the best postseasons in the history of the NFL in 2012.

All 3 of these quarterbacks played elite caliber football in those postseasons. So certainly none of them played like scrubs getting carried by their teammates and head coach (of which there a very few examples in the history of the Super Bowl).

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Brady wanted out of Tampa Bay and he had a possible scheme going with Sean Payton and Miami but it got completely blown up by the Flores lawsuit. Also, Brady realized the Bucs weren't going to let him shake loose under any scenario so he had no choice other than going back to Tampa Bay. Ultimately Bowles killed the 2022 season for the Bucs and in the process he sucked Brady dry of any desire to continue his NFL career. The Bucs obviously will be tanking in 2023 because that's the only reason I can come up for Bowles keeping his job.

The Brady-Arians beef was over Antonio Brown, not X's and O's, so Brady would have been fine with Arians in 2022. It's become apparent that Arians stepped down due to age and health.

AB burned bridges with everyone, TB12 never had a good relationship with Ariens. TB12 struggled with the Ariens offense in year one and forced a mid season change in strategy. Things did not go better year two. Wozzy left out a critical milestone in the sequence of events. Tom retired, Tom visited Glazer in Manchester UK, Arian's stepped down, then Tom instantly un-retired. The health statements were a nice cover for Ariens after Tom got the owner involved.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lol it had to be a conspiracy! I don't know what Bill saw in Jackson he was far past done at that point and I don't know why he decided to make him the focal point of that gameplay. I get wanting to keep Brady and Gronk healthy but we needed to win that game for home field advantage so play the game and pull them when it was in hand.

I hear you. At that point in the year they were so limited offensively and their RB depth demolished resorting to SJAX was a bad situation made worse.

 

[crawhammer]

I'd put Stabler right along side with Bradshaw in that era. Maybe even slightly above. Snake never had weapons like Franco Harris and Lynn Swann...

Stabler had more INTs than Bradshaw, a higher INT%, and a worse TD/INT ratio. He also won 3 less Super Bowls than Bradshaw and had a bad habit of losing conference championship games. Stabler also played with a HOF WR (Cliff Branch) and a HOF TE (Dave Casper).

If you look at the comparisons closely, Bradshaw comes out ahead of any other quarterback from the 70's.

 

[crawhammer]

With the #1 priority of protecting Brady and Gronk for the playoffs, what should they have done differently?

Obviously gone all out to win the game. The #1 seed was on the line. BB already screwed up the Philadelphia and NYJ games, which made week 17 a must win to secure the #1 seed. The game plan was a complete joke, they lost the game, and it cost them another Super Bowl. With a win in week 17, Peyton Manning on fumes would have had to come to Gillette... no way the Patriots lose that game. Then they would have faced Cam Newton in the SB where he was completely overwhelmed with the gravity of the moment and folded like a cheap suit.

Then there's the SB 52 debacle. Seriously, the Patriots should have won 5 SBs in a row 2014-2018.

 

[Ring 6]

Then there's the SB 52 debacle. Seriously, the Patriots should have won 5 SBs in a row 2014-2018.

I don’t know which is worse, the silliness of this comment or the fact that you think it reflects negatively on Belichick.

Belichick can’t be the GOAT because Belichick took the team that belichick made good enough to win 5 straight SBs and only won 3 in 5 years, which was accomplished for only the 3rd time history, twice by Belichick.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Anybody remember Bill saying he wasn't afraid to play in Denver for the AFCCG in 2015.....even though he had a 3-6 record there (2-6 with Brady)?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Obviously gone all out to win the game. The #1 seed was on the line. BB already screwed up the Philadelphia and NYJ games, which made week 17 a must win to secure the #1 seed. The game plan was a complete joke, they lost the game, and it cost them another Super Bowl. With a win in week 17, Peyton Manning on fumes would have had to come to Gillette... no way the Patriots lose that game. Then they would have faced Cam Newton in the SB where he was completely overwhelmed with the gravity of the moment and folded like a cheap suit.

Then there's the SB 52 debacle. Seriously, the Patriots should have won 5 SBs in a row 2014-2018.

Sucks to be a Pats fan. Poor you.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Anybody remember Bill saying he wasn't afraid to play in Denver for the AFCCG in 2015.....even though he had a 3-6 record there (2-6 with Brady)?

What do you want him to say?

Seriously some of you.....

 

[crawhammer]

Every year you cite was a winning one. That is not 8-9.

I wasn't being literal. Although I put the 2015 and 2017 seasons squarely on Belichick.

It was already secure. There was nothing left to prove. At that point it's incremental.

It all matters. Every inch. I know you don't care what (some) people think about legacies (your words) but there are already arguments being made for Mahomes creeping up on Brady's legacy. Somehow I guess even Montana has become irrelevant and it's now a Brady-Mahomes discussion. 2 rings against 7 rings with the QB who has 7 getting there by beating the guy with 2 twice in the postseason.

 

[crawhammer]

Sucks to be a Pats fan. Poor you.

That's not fair. Obviously I have tremendous admiration, appreciation, and respect for the unprecedented success of the Patriots for nearly two decades. No fanbase has ever had it better for so long.

 

[TheRainMaker]

What do you want him to say?

Seriously some of you.....

This had to do with the way he handled giving up the #1 seed conceding both week 16 and 17 games.

 

[crawhammer]

AB burned bridges with everyone, TB12 never had a good relationship with Ariens. TB12 struggled with the Ariens offense in year one and forced a mid season change in strategy. Things did not go better year two. Wozzy left out a critical milestone in the sequence of events. Tom retired, Tom visited Glazer in Manchester UK, Arian's stepped down, then Tom instantly un-retired. The health statements were a nice cover for Ariens after Tom got the owner involved.

I thinks Arians challenged Brady, openly criticized him, which Brady may not have appreciate, but too ****ing bad, and in reality it probably lit a fire under his ass. Arians isn't a great coach from the sideline but he's aggressive and a great motivator. I think he, Leftwich, and Brady were able to sort out a winning formula down the stretch in 2020. Brady was brilliant in 2020 and 2021 (when he should have won his 4th NFL MVP at age 44).

Bowles botched the end of the 2021 NFCCG by inexplicably leaving Kupp uncovered. Then he spectacularly failed as the head coach in 2022. Generally Belichick's knowledge of the game and awareness from the sideline are impeccable. Now image the total opposite of that... you're thinking of toilet bowles.

 

[Ring 6]

That's not fair. Obviously I have tremendous admiration, appreciation, and respect for the unprecedented success of the Patriots for nearly two decades. No fanbase has ever had it better for so long.

Then why go on a mission to trash the man at the helm?

You don’t have admiration, appreciation and respect when you make it your life’s work to knock the guy in charge of it.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Wait, you jumped in to argue this and you don’t even know what you are arguing?
Why would a patriot fan jump into a discussion with no facts solely to try to diminish OUR coach who won 6 championships here?
Why?

no just no
i argued with you because you call parcell's stats mediocre while you call Bill the GOAT despite Bill having worse stats in his tenure without brady
so you measure with two different standards

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

It would appear he made it up if you think he is referring to Belichick because Belichick never had a 10 year run with those poor numbers.

it's not a run he is refering to

 

[RobertWeathers]

I wasn't being literal. Although I put the 2015 and 2017 seasons squarely on Belichick.

Of course you do.

It all matters. Every inch. I know you don't care what (some) people think about legacies (your words) but there are already arguments being made for Mahomes creeping up on Brady's legacy. Somehow I guess even Montana has become irrelevant and it's now a Brady-Mahomes discussion. 2 rings against 7 rings with the QB who has 7 getting there by beating the guy with 2 twice in the postseason.

No it doesn't. Once a legacy is established based on a tier of performance it can't be changed.

Brady attained the pinnacle. So did Belichick but double-standard setters like you create convenient truths.