Inside the most dysfunctional Pats season under BB

[archstanton543]

You conveniently ignored harry and the lack of 3 first rounders is not accurate . One of it was for Brandon cooks and came back as Wynn.

That's accurate. The Pats didn't have a first round pick that year because they traded it. Yes, they traded it for Cook but they did not make a selection in the first round that year.

I'm not sure why they cut the list off at 2018.

 

[State]

I would understand if this was 1990-1992 era Patriots and they were a laughingstock. They aren't even close to that or even Jete level. I just don't get it. If you hate them so bad, go bandwagon another team. (not you, Bill, in general)

The Patriots were “flexed out” of a prime time tv spot last season.

And we have the highest expenditures for TEs with some of the lowest production. Similar to the WRs.

During TC we tried to emphasize an outside zone offensive line scheme despite the fact that not all the starters were agile or athletic enough to handle it.

We’re getting there.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Do you agree with some of us that if his name were Frank Reich or almost any other that he would be fired for his malfeasance this past season?

Not sure what malfeasance means but he was bad. I wish I could ask him WTH were you thinking naming MP OC and OL coach? One of those alone was a moonshot. But both was something like a sick joke perpetrated on the franchise.

I was going to say just on the offensive side of the ball, but then I remember what a disaster the special teams has become even with the most exciting rookie punt returner since Pac-Man Jones.

It’s clear BB hires coaches like he drafts. He only wants to work with an extremely small sample size. He hires sycophants and goes over the heads of the scouts to draft guys who shine in interviews.

The same Frank Reich who quickly got another head coaching job?

Yes, if Bill wasn’t Bill and Kraft had fired him, I don’t think anyone would have been surprised. But Bill has been here a long time and won a lot of games and has earned (in Kraft’s eyes) another season to turn it around.

And much like Reich, if Bill had gotten fired, he’d already have been hired for another head coaching job.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Good lord

 

[archstanton543]

The same Frank Reich who quickly got another head coaching job?

Yes, if Bill wasn’t Bill and Kraft had fired him, I don’t think anyone would have been surprised. But Bill has been here a long time and won a lot of games and has earned (in Kraft’s eyes) another season to turn it around.

And much like Reich, if Bill had gotten fired, he’d already have been hired for another head coaching job.

I don't' know about that. He's going to be 71 and has maybe three years tops. Is he going to want to uproot himself, install his system, cut all the dead weight from the previous coaching regime (players and coaches) and basically start from scratch? I think time is against him.

A team that's a "coach away" from contention is further away than a team that's a player away from contention.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Last 3 seasons of Team X:

1. 1. No division wins (3rd, 2nd, 3rd)
2. 2. Two losing seasons
3. 3. One playoff blow-out (17-47)
4. 4. 25-26 record (.490)

Who is the HC?

"Idk but he sounds really good, let's give him another 2-3 years."
Colts Fan (probably)

Actual Colts Fan: "Wait that's not us, here's our record."

• 1. No division wins (2nd, 2nd, 3rd)
• 2. One losing season
• 3. One playoff loss (24-27)
• 4. 24-26-1 record (.480)

"Our HC didn't perform so we fired him."

Pats Fan: "Wait are we Team X? We've done as bad as the Colts? WTF. Something is wrong."

ReAl pAtS fAn: " You ungrateful pos, we could go 0-1000 and still be basking in glory. STFU and root for the team or find another team."

That's right, the Colts haven't won anything in 16 years. The Pats won the SB 4 years ago, and 3 of the past 8, by far the best in the league. In the past 22 years since BB took over, only 3 teams have won > 1 SB (the Giants, Ravens, and Bucs) - each 2 rings, while we've won 6. So that totally explains the different attitiude and approach. KC or Philly will add to that list of 2-time winners in a couple of weeks.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

I don't' know about that. He's going to be 71 and has maybe three years tops. Is he going to want to uproot himself, install his system, cut all the dead weight from the previous coaching regime (players and coaches) and basically start from scratch? I think time is against him.

A team that's a "coach away" from contention is further away than a team that's a player away from contention.

Depends on the team. Jerry Jones would back up the Brinks truck for BB, and they'd be SB favorites next year.

 

[Kontradiction]

Good lord

They didn’t know what they were doing. You can’t teach a subject you don’t even know yourself.

 

[RobertWeathers]

They didn’t know what they were doing. You can’t teach a subject you don’t even know yourself.

Irresponsible. Christ.

 

[archstanton543]

Depends on the team. Jerry Jones would back up the Brinks truck for BB, and they'd be SB favorites next year.

It's not a money issue. It's a scenario like I just laid out in my previous post. That stuff takes time.

People point to BB turning things around here quickly in 2000-2001. That was a long time ago when he was a much younger man and the league was much different too (they allowed you to play D).

 

[mike_usagisan]

It's not a money issue. It's a scenario like I just laid out in my previous post. That stuff takes time.

People point to BB turning things around here quickly in 2000-2001. That was a long time ago when he was a much younger man and the league was much different too (they allowed you to play D).

Depends on how motivated Bill would be to showing he still had it.

That said, I think you’re probably right and Bill would agree to resign rather than be fired and go off into the sunset. But I do think he would have some offers on the table if he wanted them.

 

[State]

Good lord

Yeah. Players aren’t feeling it playing in New England. Kendrick Bourne has become my favorite player by being open about it, for which he had much of his season Malcolm Butlered.

Detroit is where it’s at. Here we get more transparency from Brad Holmes, the league’s best GM, than we have in years from Belichick.


It appears the two franchises are going in different directions. And Detroit fans, many of them, say the Matt Patricia years were the lowest of the low.

UPDATE: Former Patriot Ray Agnew is Brad Holmes’s assistant. I would love to see him running the show as GM in NE.

 

[Tunescribe]

It's pretty odd that these reporters saved up all this stuff long after most people decided this whole MP/JG experiment was a failure, and now fire it into the post-season void.

The had to wait to get it fleshed out with quotes from inside sources who either weren't accessible or didn't feel comfortable talking 'til the season ended.

 

[Steve102]

Do you agree with some of us that if his name were Frank Reich or almost any other that he would be fired for his malfeasance this past season?

From earlier in the thread:

I look at this as multi-layered. It's Bill's eff up that he went with JJ/FM to begin with. So now Bill has to take over in game decisions because JJ/FM are an abject failure? And, surprise, he himself fails at that? Meanwhile, specials suck at an all time non-Patriot level. Too much on Bill's plate, too much to ask of anyone, much less a 70 year old guy. Bill thought he could get good results with JJ/FM, and he was wrong. Thought he could do it himself, and that was wrong.

I guess I look at at it and think that the whole thing was a nightmare of his own doing, and he either got called on it by RKK or he freely admitted in the meeting with RKK that he needed more, better help. So, the help is here. The haters want to roll around on tweets like this like a dog rolling around on fresh cut grass. Meh. He screwed up, royally. 2022 is over. Yes, other coaches not named Bill Belichick might get fired for chit like this. He's got one more year to fix it, to quote @RobertWeathers, or he will be retired. I can't speak for everyone else, but I want to move on to '23 and getting better. We will see what happens.

Your other point:

It’s clear BB hires coaches like he drafts. He only wants to work with an extremely small sample size. He hires sycophants and goes over the heads of the scouts to draft guys who shine in interviews.

I don't know about the sycophants part. He has said he only wants to coach guys he wants to coach, and be around guys he wants to be around. Do I think he goes about his business looking for yes men? No. Do I see that guys could be in that coaches room and not want to stand Bill up on a point or points? A little hero worship? Yes, I can see that. Is that Bill's fault? You can say yes, he should have hired more argumentative, demonstrative or opinionated coaches, but how many are going to stand him up, and how many of those guys are available to be position coaches? Any coach with the sack to stand Bill up is likely already a HC in the league. I can see guys looking across the table at the most successful HC in league history and think twice before they tell him he's wrong. I am hopeful that BoB is going to bring a little bit of swagger and more balls to tell Bill what's up.

Re: the drafting guys who shine in interviews, yeah I think he values what's between the ears more than he values 40 time. He wants character guys, puts a lot of stock in coachability and leadership. If you're talking about identifying, drafting, and developing wideouts, yeah he sucks at that. I coached with a OL coach that referred to true wideouts (not slots) as "those pretty boys that only play outside the numbers". There might be a little bit of that, but on the defensive side, he's proven to counter that with elite corners consistently. It feels like there's a lot of you folks here (I and I don't know if you are one of those) that look at Bill and the wideout position and say he sucks at drafting overall. I think they had a rough go of it at the end of the run, and it shows. They have turned the corner in the last couple of drafts. I know there's guys like @RobertWeathers that can tell you what their success rate is and how it rates to the rest of the league. @BaconGrundleCandy probably knows that data too, I know he spends a lot of time on player evals. (He should have a job as a scout somewhere.)

Finally:

The Patriots were “flexed out” of a prime time tv spot last season.

And we have the highest expenditures for TEs with some of the lowest production. Similar to the WRs.

During TC we tried to emphasize an outside zone offensive line scheme despite the fact that not all the starters were agile or athletic enough to handle it.

We’re getting there.

Were you a fan in the Rod Rust era? Hugh Millen-ated at QB? Victor Kiam? Lisa Olsen? C'mon man. Back away from the ledge. It can get way worse. They aren't even remotely close to those times, and won't be as long as the Krafts own the team. This post right here is what I was talking about earlier. Some of you guys like being mad at them. Relax. Yes, 2022 sucked. Yes, they went backwards. It's the first time since Bill got here in 2000 that they went backwards, assuming you look at the Brady Era as one long, sustained run of excellence. I stated earlier that none of the dynastic coaches, GMs or owners were able to rebuild their franchise when their dynasty ended. I doubt very much that Bill can, but I am willing to give the man another year, which is likely all the Krafts are going to give him as well. Another 8-9 year and he'll be retiring to Nantucket.

RE: Pining to be the Detroit Lions. Dude. Yes they finished strong, and it was fun to watch them eff the Packers out of the playoffs, but that franchise has a long history of screwing it up. Give them a minute. If they don't, good for them, but let's hold up a bit and back off the I Wanna Be The Lions talk for a bit. You lost a lot of credibility with that.

 

[203Pat]

They had a succession plan: Jimmy G. Bill played the odds that Brady would get to his late thirties and fall of the Max Kellerman cliff, like every other player in the history of the NFL. When that didn't happen, all bets were off. Just a hunch, but I think Bill thought, wrongly, that Brady's relationship with the Krafts and RKK specifically would keep Brady here year to year and Bill could continue to play hardball with him. Again, wrong.

I don't think they were treading water. I think 2020 was a reset with Cam. They came back in 2021 with a rookie, made the playoffs. Turned the corner, starting to build around Mac, bought in, in Bill's mind, two excellent football minds in JJ and FM, and they should be able to keep things going. We know how that turned out. So now they've got Billy O and, hopefully, righting the ship. We will see.

My issue with the Jimmy G succession plan was the fact that Bill decided to trade Jimmy in October of 2017 and Brady didnt leave until after the 2019 season. That left Bill with two drafts, one of which with two first round picks (2018), to find a successor whether in the draft or though a trade. Like you said Bill bet on the fact that Brady would stay because of relationships (with everyone but Bill apparently) and Bill struck out.

To me 2020 should have just been a full tear down. Everything was in place to start the process. An aging, talent-poor roster, then all the Covid stuff. McCourty, Slater, and Thuney should have been set free and Thuney would have likely netted a 3rd round comp pick. They should have rode it out with Stidham and seen if there was anything there even if was just as a backup. Gilmore would have gone for a lot more than a 5th or whatever the hell he ended up going for and then we could have let the young guys play that season earlier than they did. Do we win 2 games? 4? Who really cares? It was a lost season and should have been a full reset instead of trying to piece together meaningless wins to go 7-9. We would have came into 2020 with even more cap room, a higher pick, an 3rd rounder, and an idea of how many of the recent draft picks on the team could play. Now we have a roster that still has glaring holes all over the offense with aging, overpriced players who likely won't be here in another year or two if Mac does actually turn out to be the guy.

 

[Steve102]

To me 2020 should have just been a full tear down. Everything was in place to start the process. An aging, talent-poor roster, then all the Covid stuff. McCourty, Slater, and Thuney should have been set free and Thuney would have likely netted a 3rd round comp pick. They should have rode it out with Stidham and seen if there was anything there even if was just as a backup. Gilmore would have gone for a lot more than a 5th or whatever the hell he ended up going for and then we could have let the young guys play that season earlier than they did. Do we win 2 games? 4? Who really cares? It was a lost season and should have been a full reset instead of trying to piece together meaningless wins to go 7-9. We would have came into 2020 with even more cap room, a higher pick, an 3rd rounder, and an idea of how many of the recent draft picks on the team could play. Now we have a roster that still has glaring holes all over the offense with aging, overpriced players who likely won't be here in another year or two if Mac does actually turn out to be the guy.

I think Bill hung on to those guys to have leadership in the locker room, a connection to the winning culture. Didn't they lose a handful by less than one score? I seem to remember that they were a couple ball bounces away from 9-7, which would have gotten them in the tournament. Regardless, I don't think it's in Bill's nature to rebuild that way. I think he's going to put the best team he can on the field and get the most out of them. I don't think he wanted to go with a rookie filling the shoes of the greatest ever, and went with a guy with a little pedigree and a lot of attitude that cost him next to nothing. So... if you're going to be the Krafts and jettison everyone in 2020, does that mean Bill too? Then why not keep Brady? I don't think it's nearly as black and white as many of us would like it to be.

 

[203Pat]

First off, I never selected this username. Don't feel a need to change it either. Secondly, hell yes, BB gets a pass. And he will for eternity in my eyes. All I need for him to do is correct it, and he's well on the way to doing so. Belittling others for feeling the same way makes your type look like they are against the team as a whole. Go find another team if you're that upset with the coach, this player or that waterboy. We ****ing get it. BB ****ed up one years worth of your fanhood. Boohoo. Go root for another team. Don't tell me it's about "we want what's best for the team". If that's true, support him rather than tear him down,. Pray that he's learned and can move on. Christ, if you want to bury him as a fan, stop going to the games and pretending to be a Patriots fan.

Someone needs to keep a list. Some of these posters are getting so good at mimic the homers I can hardly tell what is satire anymore.

 

[archstanton543]

I think Bill hung on to those guys to have leadership in the locker room, a connection to the winning culture. Didn't they lose a handful by less than one score? I seem to remember that they were a couple ball bounces away from 9-7, which would have gotten them in the tournament. Regardless, I don't think it's in Bill's nature to rebuild that way. I think he's going to put the best team he can on the field and get the most out of them. I don't think he wanted to go with a rookie filling the shoes of the greatest ever, and went with a guy with a little pedigree and a lot of attitude that cost him next to nothing. So... if you're going to be the Krafts and jettison everyone in 2020, does that mean Bill too? Then why not keep Brady? I don't think it's nearly as black and white as many of us would like it to be.

Doesn't matter if you lose by one score or 100 points. A loss is a loss.

Stid wasn't a rookie.

 

[Steve102]

Stid wasn't a rookie.

My bad, second year player with little to no experience, following the GOAT. Kinda the same thing.

 

[sb1]

I don't' know about that. He's going to be 71 and has maybe three years tops. Is he going to want to uproot himself, install his system, cut all the dead weight from the previous coaching regime (players and coaches) and basically start from scratch? I think time is against him.

Except the Giants IMO. BB would be a NY Giant today if the Patriots let BB go right now and the Giants opened the door for him.