Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Bengals beat the Pats

[Rob0729]

You are very sensitive. 9 TDs and 8 Ints indicates something is wrong. Think about it. Let's hope it all improves. Merry Christmas .

Yes, we saw on Sunday, Patricia is the problem with this offense.

But you are still avoiding the fact that Jones made a good throw on a play you are criticizing him on where the receiver dropped the ball that hit him in the hands. Not sure how anyone can objectively blame Jones and not Thornton for that play.

I have thought about it. Have you?

 

[p8ryts]

Oh - I did not realize it was this throw. The entire time I thought we were talking about the hail mary throw.

This was a good throw and Thornton should have caught it. Can't understand how anyone could say anything else. Sure the throw was not perfect but more than good enough to be caught. It hits Thornton's hands withouy him having to do any adjustments that are not table stakes for an NFL WR.

Also I am not a Mac hater. Yes I don't think he is someone we can win a SB with but I don't attack him or unfairly criticise him. Heck I even defended him a few times.

There is a difference between not being a delusional, or to be nicer, a hoplessly optimistic homer and a hater.

It seems that because for 20 years we had no real reason to criticise the team, an entire generation of fans grew up not having a clue that being critical of a team or its QB is normal.

No criticism? I remember fans crucifying Weiss and McDaniels many times. Belichick has been criticized constantly. Mangini and Patricia always criticized. Brady's last couple years he was criticized. There has been plenty criticism over the years. This year it has just taken a mean turn. Vicious stuff. This was not a great team but it was better than last year's but with more critical OL injuries and was a QB away from being a playoff team.

 

[Jim Beankie]

I disagree, Thornton had to slow way up, the ball took a turn to the left, Mac doesn't have the arm strength to cut through the wind. I've seen a lot of his throws taken of course by the elements, which is a velocity problem. Still the ball was catchable. But it was not a great throw

The issue is that it took until a very cold (hard ball) and very windy (ball probably moving like a knuckle ball) day for Mac to finally hit TT in the hands on a deep throw (unless I'm forgetting a previous attempt). I still put most of the blame (randomly picking 90% but that's harsh) on Thornton. Given the conditions, I thought it was a great throw. A perfect throw (rare) is right in the hands, in full stride, with no acceleration changes. A great throw is one with slight acceleration changes. This would've been a "good" throw if the conditions were good, but as such, imho, it was a great throw.

This would've been a 57 air yard pass if completed, which would've been Mac's longest by far as a Patriot (52.2yds). Thornton did have to decelerate rapidly (imho but I'm biased as a slow sprinter/runner), course correct to move left, and dive. If he didn't choose "poorly" (tough in those conditions), then the catch could've been "in stride." The problem with Mac to Thornton (which I'll keep saying until they figure it out), is that Mac is releasing the ball too late. This is even with TT's strangely really slow time to start horizontal movement (which I figured out and will analyze in more detail in the TT thread) - he's that fast. It would've been late even to Agholor, who's very fast in his own right. If it's a single high safety with both Agholor and Thornton in there, I say just look off the safety and chuck it up with release at 2.5s with decision to throw at low 2s. If Thornton cleans up his start (and yes yes catch the ball blah blah) - another .15s - then Mac can decide/commit to throw at around 2s with release at 2.35s for a 57 air yard throw.

2.93s snap to release
3.07s release to TT

I don't think velocity is an issue if he can get the timing right. Not sure one wants to put a throw like this on a rope anyway. As analyzed previously, even Josh Allen will sometimes have throws of this length take that much time (so same velocity) to get the right arc on it.



If a neanderthal like me can figure it out, a f*cking rocket scientist shouldn't have a problem. FFS.

 

[holyredeemer]

This team is the complete opposite from the first dynasty teams as you can get. They have a strong d, a good running game, and a qb that should be able to manage the game. But, at times when they need to make a play in any of the 3 phases of the game, they crumble and fall apart. From top to bottom, they **** the bed, each and every time it seems. It really sucks too, because there is talent there. They give you that little false nugget of hope. Just a bunch of boneheaded mistakes left and right. From top to bottom. I don’t feel like they are too far away being a top ten club, but whether the maturity and growth is going to happen is a huge question mark. These guys need to toughen up. Shut up. Put it all together and hit the field on game day ready to rock and roll. This includes the coaches. Garbage results.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Converting an existing holiday to another religion to speed up said religion's adoption is a staple play used by many other religions.

Heck that was the whole playbook of the "book" religions.

That said - not sure why we are talking about this here

Been that way since Marduk cut Tiamat in half, giving us the waters above and the waters below. What? LOL

On the actual topic, I hate to like moral victories, but agree with Ian's article and some takes here... they didn't just give up, they didn't say, "oh no woe is me" and give up, they battled ALMOST all the way back. On the large scale though, same problem, ball security, killed us two consecutive weeks. It's not like we'd be undefeated but for the stupid mistakes... nothing would make this group as talented as Philly or Buffalo. But we'd be in the conversation (and the playoffs.) Once that happens, who gets hot when can dictate outcomes for 3 or 4 games, and you can go all the way.

It was good seeing Jones being effective and it was bad for the entire first half.

Also, how high is too high to draft an effin' kicker?

 

[p8ryts]

The issue is that it took until a very cold (hard ball) and very windy (ball probably moving like a knuckle ball) day for Mac to finally hit TT in the hands on a deep throw (unless I'm forgetting a previous attempt). I still put most of the blame (randomly picking 90% but that's harsh) on Thornton. Given the conditions, I thought it was a great throw. A perfect throw (rare) is right in the hands, in full stride, with no acceleration changes. A great throw is one with slight acceleration changes. This would've been a "good" throw if the conditions were good, but as such, imho, it was a great throw.

This would've been a 57 air yard pass if completed, which would've been Mac's longest by far as a Patriot (52.2yds). Thornton did have to decelerate rapidly (imho but I'm biased as a slow sprinter/runner), course correct to move left, and dive. If he didn't choose "poorly" (tough in those conditions), then the catch could've been "in stride." The problem with Mac to Thornton (which I'll keep saying until they figure it out), is that Mac is releasing the ball too late. This is even with TT's strangely really slow time to start horizontal movement (which I figured out and will analyze in more detail in the TT thread) - he's that fast. It would've been late even to Agholor, who's very fast in his own right. If it's a single high safety with both Agholor and Thornton in there, I say just look off the safety and chuck it up with release at 2.5s with decision to throw at low 2s. If Thornton cleans up his start (and yes yes catch the ball blah blah) - another .15s - then Mac can decide/commit to throw at around 2s with release at 2.35s for a 57 air yard throw.

2.93s snap to release
3.07s release to TT

I don't think velocity is an issue if he can get the timing right. Not sure one wants to put a throw like this on a rope anyway. As analyzed previously, even Josh Allen will sometimes have throws of this length take that much time (so same velocity) to get the right arc on it.

View attachment 48522

If a neanderthal like me can figure it out, a f*cking rocket scientist shouldn't have a problem. FFS.

Whatever!!! Our only hope is that Mac, like Hurts and Tua, all of a sudden the light comes on in his third year. In that one play it looked like 4 receivers were open, the pass should have been caught but it was a lousy throw. Burrow said after the game if he sees one on one he will throw it up and give his guy a chance. That is a pretty easy decision. Don't know how often we do that.

 

[Free_Pacman]

The issue is that it took until a very cold (hard ball) and very windy (ball probably moving like a knuckle ball) day for Mac to finally hit TT in the hands on a deep throw (unless I'm forgetting a previous attempt). I still put most of the blame (randomly picking 90% but that's harsh) on Thornton. Given the conditions, I thought it was a great throw. A perfect throw (rare) is right in the hands, in full stride, with no acceleration changes. A great throw is one with slight acceleration changes. This would've been a "good" throw if the conditions were good, but as such, imho, it was a great throw.

This would've been a 57 air yard pass if completed, which would've been Mac's longest by far as a Patriot (52.2yds). Thornton did have to decelerate rapidly (imho but I'm biased as a slow sprinter/runner), course correct to move left, and dive. If he didn't choose "poorly" (tough in those conditions), then the catch could've been "in stride." The problem with Mac to Thornton (which I'll keep saying until they figure it out), is that Mac is releasing the ball too late. This is even with TT's strangely really slow time to start horizontal movement (which I figured out and will analyze in more detail in the TT thread) - he's that fast. It would've been late even to Agholor, who's very fast in his own right. If it's a single high safety with both Agholor and Thornton in there, I say just look off the safety and chuck it up with release at 2.5s with decision to throw at low 2s. If Thornton cleans up his start (and yes yes catch the ball blah blah) - another .15s - then Mac can decide/commit to throw at around 2s with release at 2.35s for a 57 air yard throw.

2.93s snap to release
3.07s release to TT

I don't think velocity is an issue if he can get the timing right. Not sure one wants to put a throw like this on a rope anyway. As analyzed previously, even Josh Allen will sometimes have throws of this length take that much time (so same velocity) to get the right arc on it.

View attachment 48522

If a neanderthal like me can figure it out, a f*cking rocket scientist shouldn't have a problem. FFS.

Damn, I had originally thought that was a good throw while watching that game live, but looking at the replay, it was really underthrown. Thornton should have still caught it, but a good quarterback hits Thornton in-stride and walks into the end zone.

Please play Zappe.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

This team is the complete opposite from the first dynasty teams as you can get. They have a strong d, a good running game, and a qb that should be able to manage the game. But, at times when they need to make a play in any of the 3 phases of the game, they crumble and fall apart. From top to bottom, they **** the bed, each and every time it seems. It really sucks too, because there is talent there. They give you that little false nugget of hope. Just a bunch of boneheaded mistakes left and right. From top to bottom. I don’t feel like they are too far away being a top ten club, but whether the maturity and growth is going to happen is a huge question mark. These guys need to toughen up. Shut up. Put it all together and hit the field on game day ready to rock and roll. This includes the coaches. Garbage results.

Kinda feels like the 2000 team but not quite as bad. They lost alot of close games they we’re almost like experts at losing game. The problem is this has spanned 2 seasons now, a great majority of games that came down to the last minute have been lost. Is that going to turn around? Who knows

 

[Dingleberry]

I don't think Mac has the intangibles to be what we were hoping for in a QB. If everything is perfect around him, he can be decent. A middling QB. However, the throw to Thornton was 100% fine and there is NO excuse for the rookie not to catch that. Given the cold and the wind, that was an excellent throw.

I am mentally done with Mac like many, but no need to nit pick that throw.

And Patricia is not THE problem with the offense. He is A problem. I will even concede a majority of the problem. But Mac is also a problem.

Between the two, we have crap combined with crap. And that gives us an offense that is a shyt stew.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[ahmed]

No criticism? I remember fans crucifying Weiss and McDaniels many times. Belichick has been criticized constantly. Mangini and Patricia always criticized. Brady's last couple years he was criticized. There has been plenty criticism over the years. This year it has just taken a mean turn. Vicious stuff. This was not a great team but it was better than last year's but with more critical OL injuries and was a QB away from being a playoff team.

I get what you are saying but my point was we really did not have a lot to be critical of relatively speaking. There is only so much you can nitpick a team that makes it to the SB every other year. And even then the critics is half hearted because of said success.

Now people have become extremely defensive and territorial because the crisism is towards a regime that brought us unimaginable success for 20 years, with a lot of built-in good will, and it is warranted because of the record over the last 3 years.

 

[signbabybrady]

Belichick would have 2 rings and that would be because he had a guy named Lawrence Taylor in charge of his defense and the head coach was Bill Parcells.....It would take a ton of convincing for me to belive overall that Bill Parcells is not a better head coach than Belichick ..Parcells and his drafting skills especially on defense began the dynasty in the 1st 2 SBs, its not debatable that the defense was the difference in winning and losing with Brady as the piece of the puzzle that was missing.

Even if you want to give Parcels credit for 01-04 SB you'd have to call that a joint effort between both Bills. As were the Giants wins and the 96 loss to the Packers all joint efforts.

However BB still went to 6 other SBs winning 3 of them. That's more than Parcels entire career.

The hoops people jump through to discredit people can be silly.

 

[ahmed]

Whatever!!! Our only hope is that Mac, like Hurts and Tua, all of a sudden the light comes on in his third year. In that one play it looked like 4 receivers were open, the pass should have been caught but it was a lousy throw. Burrow said after the game if he sees one on one he will throw it up and give his guy a chance. That is a pretty easy decision. Don't know how often we do that.

I always thought Hurts would succeed because to me he had the it factor based on how he bounced back from getting benched and losing his spot after winning a championship.

Tua I am shocked but then again I did not watch him closely so could be I missed the signs. I hope Mac makes the leap next year but if he does not, I want us to move on in year 4. Nothing I want less than getting tied to a mediocre QB hoping he will eventually put it all together.

 

[PatsFan2]

Yes, we saw on Sunday, Patricia is the problem with this offense.

But you are still avoiding the fact that Jones made a good throw on a play you are criticizing him on where the receiver dropped the ball that hit him in the hands. Not sure how anyone can objectively blame Jones and not Thornton for that play.

I have thought about it. Have you?

If it wasn't for the Defense we wouldn't even be in or have a chance to win this game. FYI it's not because of your Mac we win it's in spite of Mac and we lose because of him. I am sure BB have done his evaluations and IF Mac is the Patriots Starting QB in 2023 Zappe or the other QB who gets beats out should find another profession.

 

[Ross12]

Give me O’Brien and Jimmy G next year. Trade Mac for a 2nd to Vegas after they cut Carr. Roll with Jimmy and Zappe next year. Trade up from the mid 1st to the top 10 using that 2nd to grab a top tackle. Take a flier on a WR in the 2nd. Should be a good start.

 

[Jim Beankie]

We are not nitpicking, even though you might feel that way. Mac has 9 TDs and 8 Ints. Not a good year, and that is not nitpicking. I hope and think Mac will be better in 2023, and I hope he continues to improve the last two games.

Mac needs to see the field faster and step into his throws. The same thing happened on that Thornton pass. Why wait until it is a 50 yard pass when Thornton beat his man all the way? Throw the ball at 20 to 30 yards.

The exciting part is Thornton is starting to smoke guys, and Mac and Thornton will both get better. Having said that, Mac has to get better.

Imho, I think it's because he's gotten ultra conservative in fear of losing his job if he makes more "irresponsible" INTs. #29 on Thornton (Cam Taylor-Britt) is very fast: 1.54/2.56/4.38, but Thornton just blew by him.

Let's take that TT drop and say Mac releases it when he should at say 2.6s post snap versus the actual 2.93s on this play. With .3s for the actual throwing motion, the decision to throw is at 2.3s post snap (the latest), and this is what he sees. CBs are still 3-4yds behind Agholor and Thornton.



This is the latest he could've decided to throw at 2.63s post snap (for the actual 2.93s Time to Throw). Guessing TT's man is still 2yds in front of him (like Agholor):
(Edit - hey me/buddy you could just see when his arm starts moving duh! which is exactly at 2.63s, coincidentally)



I hope at some point they'll continue to let it rip if TT is 1 on 1.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

How I feel about Matt Patricia...

 

[ahmed]

Give me O’Brien and Jimmy G next year. Trade Mac for a 2nd to Vegas after they cut Carr. Roll with Jimmy and Zappe next year. Trade up from the mid 1st to the top 10 using that 2nd to grab a top tackle. Take a flier on a WR in the 2nd. Should be a good start.

How many times has Jimmy played all games in a season? Can't have a QB who is basically always guaranteed to miss significant time.

 

[Rob0729]

If it wasn't for the Defense we wouldn't even be in or have a chance to win this game. FYI it's not because of your Mac we win it's in spite of Mac and we lose because of him. I am sure BB have done his evaluations and IF Mac is the Patriots Starting QB in 2023 Zappe or the other QB who gets beats out should find another profession.

First, what does anything you wrote have to do with the Thornton play?

Second, it wasn't Mac Jones who decided to start the first two series of plays with ultra conservative and ultra predictable series of drives being run, run, pass each drive.

Third, Mac Jones is the likely starter in 2023. He showed in the second half yesterday that he isn't the problem that you Mac Haters want to make him and Matt Patricia is the #1 problem with the offense and #2 isn't remotely close to Patricia.

 

[Toofy]

No one can argue he hasn't been good this year. And that is not what I'm saying. Mac does have to get better and I'm hoping with a real OC calling plays and not burying your best playmaker (Bourne) Mac can get more back to who he was last year than this year.
I just think that's an odd play to pick to criticize him on. It wasn't a bad pass. Hit Thornton in the hands. We could criticize any deep pass that doesn't go for a TD by any QB if we start to go "well he should've thrown it farther" or "he should've thrown it sooner".
If a deep pass hits you in the hands and you don't catch it that is the receivers fault.
There are a number of other passes people could choose to criticize on. Like missing guys in the first half.
I think it's just an odd play to criticize. When it clearly was a drop by Thornton

Receivers are running routes more than 4 seconds when pocket collapses in 2 seconds. On top of it , Henry and Smith collide. This is kindergarten level football coaching.

 

[Dingleberry]

Give me O’Brien and Jimmy G next year. Trade Mac for a 2nd to Vegas after they cut Carr. Roll with Jimmy and Zappe next year. Trade up from the mid 1st to the top 10 using that 2nd to grab a top tackle. Take a flier on a WR in the 2nd. Should be a good start.

As down as I am on Mac, I would rather see Year 3 Mac get one last shot with BoB. I want no part of Jimmy G. Injury prone combined with average QB'ing.

I would much rather see Zappe get a real shot.

But NO to Jimmy G.