Mac Jones last two weeks

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I will give you that. Jones was always on his back last year. It was so bad that only 23 QBs were sacked more than Jones last year. Seriously, only 23. I mean that means Jones was sacked more than most of the league right?

BTW, he was tied with Mahomes and Cousins for the 24th most sacked QB. So only six teams had a QB who was sacked less than Jones last year.

Jones was sacked 28 times last year in 17 games (1.6 times a game). He has been sacked 26 times this year in 11 games (2.4 times a game). But of course you think he is better this year.

You Mac Jones haters just make up an alternate reality for what Jones was last year. Maybe if I watched the Mac Jones you all made up in your heads last year, I would hate him too.

NFL Conference Passing Stat Leaders, 2021 Regular Season - ESPN

ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Discover the Offense Passing stat leaders of the 2021 NFL Regular Season.

www.espn.com

You're ******ed Rob.

Bad sacks, meaning yards lost off sacks. You don't know what you're talking about and so busy making excuses for Mac. So it's hard to blame you.

So once again dummy. Yes Mac absolutely has improved on taking "Bad Sacks" compared to last year.

Buddy you're a tier 3 poster on a tier 1 posting rage. Take a few weeks off and then a few more.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Thank you, I've been saying this since last year. @Rob0729 still think he had awesome pocket presence?

He has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. Honestly the next person to ask him his opinion will be the first. Embarrassing himself though lol. Poor guy lost the warm up, battle, war, after party and next day. And still post like he has a point.

 

[Ian]

If Jones plays like he did on Sunday over the remaining games, he might get traded in the offseason. Could be what he wants.

I still don't see Jones losing his starting job if he played like he has over the previous month or so prior to yesterday. It certainly hasn't been anything to write home about for the most part, but considering what is working against him it hasn't been bad either.

But as for Zappe, I just look at that Bears game and watched the Bears not even try to rush Zappe and just clog the passing lanes making it hard for him to throw and I think that is just a blueprint to stop him. We are seeing that with Russell Wilson more now too now that he is more of a pure pocket passer. If teams can stop Zappe from being effective without actually have to rush him, that allows opposing defensive lines to remain fresh all game. For Zappe to be effective as a starter, he may have to be able to move out of the pocket or take deeper drops so he can see over the line.

The problem is that Jones needs to differentiate himself as a player because if things become equal, that will be the issue. Re-watching Zappe's three outings - essentially four - he's not as strong as I thought and his motion is also a little strange. But while those hurt him right now, they're also things he'll fix over the offseason. Same thing with the batted passes. I'd be willing to bet he'll spend a fair amount of time with people waving rackets in his face as well.

So while you're right that how Jones was playing previously wasn't terrible, it's going to need to be at least that or better over these next few weeks, otherwise, it won't be pretty.

He's the starter and I'm obviously rooting for him to succeed just like I would anyone else. But we're 15 weeks in, soon to be 16. He needs to just say F-it and go out there in spite of whatever's aggravating him.

 

[Wozzy]

Zappe under threw wide open jakobi meyers by 10 yards; was just fortunate no one was within 25 yards of him so he could backtrack and roll into the endzone. Then proceeded to get every pass batted down in the 2nd half. Hard pass on Zappe

No, Zappe threw it where only he could get it and Jakobi had to go get it, it was a perfectly placed ball. Meyers is uber talented in short space, at getting open, quickness and lateral movement for a guy his size... but he's not fast. If Meyers was fast he'd be one of the best WR's in the league, but he's not fast. We can still call him one of the best slot WR's in the league. Welker and Edelman weren't fast either, but they are all really quick in four directions. It's not Zappe's fault Meyers is slow, Thornton would have caught that behind his back.

Zappe's a rookie, the coaches wouldn't let him pass in relief against Green Bay, barely pass in his first start against Detroit... then let it fly in his second start because the Browns defense dictated it. In all cases Zappe was near flawless.

His one interception came when Agholor caught a perfectly placed pass, cradled it like a newborn baby for a second, then handed it to an opposing player like a hot potato. In two starts Zappe completed 75% of his passes, his yards per attempt and QB Rating are well beyond Mac's. He didn't have a problem throwing downfield, he didn't have a problem throwing TD's.

I like Mac, something is off with him. It's not personal with me, Zappe was just plain better and exuded better body language. I think they could both become good QB's, this is about playing the best player. I could be wrong.

 

[Wozzy]

I question the physical tools but also agree he shouldn't be classified as a "lost cause." He and the passing offense are a disaster this season... coaching, play-calling, pass blocking, receivers and the quarterback to blame. All this while RB Stevenson is having a breakout season.

I agree too Mac looks mentally fried. I'm sure he's disappointed in his own play while also clearly being frustrated with the new offense, Patricia and the play-calling. Chandler Jones running him over is symbolic of how the entire season has gone for Jones. It's his best interests and the best interests of the team to put him on the bench for the final three games. He needs a mental reset and his deteriorating composure is not helping the team either. This also gives the team a better look at what Zappe can offer against stronger competition, which is an important assessment for future of the Patriots quarterback room.

This is what I wrote about Mac Jones after the week three loss to the Ravens and before Green Bay:

"Mac Jones was ranked 11th in passing yards entering this week... he was ranked 24th in pass attempts. The offense is ranked 5th in passing yards per attempt and is ranked 9th best on 3rd down percentage. For those unaware, that is really good (deep ball) passing efficiency, in totality they're ranked 8th best in offensive yards per play. Outside of a couple mistakes a game (interceptions, fumbles) they're a top ten offense in terms of yards and explosiveness. Not a single one of his interceptions was the result of a weak arm... not one. They were the result of a bad decision." - Wozzy Oct 1, 2022

Those were his stats after three weeks, his only mistakes were a couple of errant balls a game. Otherwise Mac was 11th in total passing yards and they were the 9th best team in the NFL on third downs. Mac Jones is similar to Kirk Cousins in athletic talent and arm. Cousins problem isn't that he can't throw it far or hard enough. It's a cerebral game, the smartest players are the best players. Mac's too inside of his own head, but he has enough talent. Arm strength is so overrated in relation to decision making... Brady and Montana prove that.

 

[Ian]

Saying his pocket presence was excellent is laughable. He took some really bad sacks last year. Actually that's one thing he's improved on this year. He took some bad sacks and couldn't ID second level pressure either. He was an average NFL QB last year. Good for a rookie but hardly excellent.

He's thinking far more this year compared to last year, you can see it watching the games back. And one other thing I noticed is he's sitting further back in the pocket, and instead of sliding up, he's started becoming more flat-footed again. That appears to be causing him to think he's under pressure sooner than he needs to be.

Obviously, Jones getting knocked around hasn't helped him, but at the same time, the things that made him good last season aren't showing up and it's keeping him from taking the next step. Honestly, with this defense, they could/can win with him even being simply a really good but not great player at this point. But he's running out of time just to even get back to being what he needs to be, and that won't be good enough heading into 2023.

 

[venecol]

Yeah it really is too bad they didn't/couldn't have traded Zappe when they had the chance before he was exposed against the Bears and all his value went kaput.

Selling high is a good thing. Would have been fascinating to see what he could have gotten in return from a team desperate for a QB. I bet it would have been a LOT more than the 4th they used on him.

You trying to compete w/ Mac10 for worse troll job in the forum? Lol

 

[Ian]

I will give you that. Jones was always on his back last year. It was so bad that only 23 QBs were sacked more than Jones last year. Seriously, only 23. I mean that means Jones was sacked more than most of the league right?

BTW, he was tied with Mahomes and Cousins for the 24th most sacked QB. So only six teams had a QB who was sacked less than Jones last year.

Jones was sacked 28 times last year in 17 games (1.6 times a game). He has been sacked 26 times this year in 11 games (2.4 times a game). But of course you think he is better this year.

You Mac Jones haters just make up an alternate reality for what Jones was last year. Maybe if I watched the Mac Jones you all made up in your heads last year, I would hate him too.

NFL Conference Passing Stat Leaders, 2021 Regular Season - ESPN

ESPN is the place for NFL stats! Discover the Offense Passing stat leaders of the 2021 NFL Regular Season.

www.espn.com

You're ******ed Rob.

Bad sacks, meaning yards lost off sacks. You don't know what you're talking about and so busy making excuses for Mac. So it's hard to blame you.

So once again dummy. Yes Mac absolutely has improved on taking "Bad Sacks" compared to last year.

Buddy you're a tier 3 poster on a tier 1 posting rage. Take a few weeks off and then a few more.

Like @BaconGrundleCandy was saying, the sack yard totals last year were tough.

The number of sacks are obviously one thing, the yards lost are another. Jones lost 241 yards off the 28 times he was sacked in 2021, which was in the lower part of the league and not in a good way. To put that in perspective, both Roethlisberger and Lamar Jackson were sacked 38 times, but lost 239 and 190 yards, respectively. That's definitely a big difference. Carr was also sacked 40 times and lost 241-yards and Matt Ryan went down 40 times and lost 274.

Josh Allen (26/164) and Aaron Rodgers (30/188) are two more good examples.

Obviously, we saw several times this year where Jones scrambled and lost a bunch of yards that put them in long-yardage situations and killed drives. He's gotten a little better about getting rid of it over the last month, or at least trying to avoid negative plays, but I think most people will remember the game Belichick went off on him, and that seemed to definitely push the issue and force that change.

 

[upstater1]

Like @BaconGrundleCandy was saying, the sack yard totals last year were tough.

The number of sacks are obviously one thing, the yards lost are another. Jones lost 241 yards off the 28 times he was sacked in 2021, which was in the lower part of the league and not in a good way. To put that in perspective, both Roethlisberger and Lamar Jackson were sacked 38 times, but lost 239 and 190 yards, respectively. That's definitely a big difference. Carr was also sacked 40 times and lost 241-yards and Matt Ryan went down 40 times and lost 274.

Josh Allen (26/164) and Aaron Rodgers (30/188) are two more good examples.

Obviously, we saw several times this year where Jones scrambled and lost a bunch of yards that put them in long-yardage situations and killed drives. He's gotten a little better about getting rid of it over the last month, or at least trying to avoid negative plays, but I think most people will remember the game Belichick went off on him, and that seemed to definitely push the issue and force that change.

Things are unraveling here at the end.

Mac is getting mad and frustrated.

The coaches are uttering some things about him that I'd never would have believed from them.

"Too far away for a Hail Mary."

Or, "I love that stuff," when Patricia was asked what he thinks about Mac yelling at him.

In isolation, any of these comments or Mac's attitude is meaningless. But it's accumulating into something much much more. I'm 50/50 now on the idea that the staff has moved on from Mac, but they don't think Zappe is the answer either (or else he'd be in there).

Plan C.

 

[SteveBsFan]

I don’t see how anyone is still making excuses for him.

The last drive we saw two examples of people not having confidence in him

#1 - 3rd and 2 and they run it because they didn’t have confidence he’d get a sideline throw in and stop the clock (coaches)

#2 - Lateral. They were tied. There is no way they become that desperate to score if they had a QB they were confident with (players)

Tie game with 30 seconds to go and a timeout to burn, a good qb is going to get them in FG range almost every time. Mac wasn’t even close.

And here is something I looked up today..

As of right now, Mac Jones has 2 wins against winning teams in his career *. And one of those teams was 9-8.

* - I didn’t count “at the time” games. For example, he beat the Jets when they had a winning record but now they don’t. I’m counting current standings.

* - He actually has 3 wins but 1 was versus Buffalo where he threw 3x

So if you count Buffalo, that’s 3 wins against winning teams in 29 starts including postseason. And since he has 15 wins, that means he’s only beaten winning teams in 20% of his wins (again, if you include Buffalo).

That’s with Matt, it’s with Josh. It’s with decent offensive lines it’s with bad offensive lines. The common denominator is Mac Jones. And if you watch him actually throw the ball, you’ll see why.

He can’t zip it into tight spots. He either badly overthrows a receiver or he underthrows it. The throw to Henry (which he still should have caught) was a bit near or above his head. Even the wide open pass to Meyers was not some beautiful throw. He was wide open by a mile and a HS qb could have completed that pass.

Mac beat a bunch of **** teams early last season, but finished the season weak and that carried over to this year.

Maybe Zappe looks like ass in practice but I don’t see how the team can’t improve by playing him the rest of the way.

 

[upstater1]

Apologies if someone mentioned this and I missed it.

Yesterday there was a stretch of (and this isn't hyperbole) about 20 or so passes that went for 17 yards. That's a 20 pass stretch that averaged less than a yard per attempt. Some were bad plays, but many were also bad decisions and/or bad throws (i.e. a "deep" shot where both Agholor and the DB had to stop and stand there waiting for the ball).

Look, I love Bill and I'll never be ungrateful. It's just... Really hard seeing the level of historic incompetence I saw yesterday against a truly bad defense. Especially with a team that really does have the talent but is being sabotaged by shorthanded and incompetent offensive and special teams coaching staffs.

I'm not defending Mac here. In fact, if you go to the game thread, I was the first to blast him OVER AND OVER for not scanning the field and not seeing wide open receivers.

That being said, the throw you're mentioning was a rocket 50 yards downfield, and Agholor had to barely slow up. A #1 WR in the NFL catches that 75% of the time. It was accurate in the sense it fell into a 4 yard radius. Which is what you want for a 50 yard throw. What you don't want is what David Carr did repeatedly. A 55 yard throw 5 yards too far downfield. If we had a real #1 rather than Agholor, we'd be crediting Mac for the same throw that fell incomplete.

 

[Ian]

He can’t zip it into tight spots. He either badly overthrows a receiver or he underthrows it. The throw to Henry (which he still should have caught) was a bit near or above his head. Even the wide open pass to Meyers was not some beautiful throw. He was wide open by a mile and a HS qb could have completed that pass.

Mac beat a bunch of **** teams early last season, but finished the season weak and that carried over to this year.

Maybe Zappe looks like ass in practice but I don’t see how the team can’t improve by playing him the rest of the way.

Jones zinged a couple of passes the last two weeks that just got past defenders for the completion. I can think of two plays where that happened, one of which happened Sunday. Both were close, but he still zipped it in there. His arm is deceptively decent - albeit obviously not at the level of other elite QBs. I pointed this out in a .gif comparing his arm strength to Zappe's. He's not Josh Allen, he's not Justin Herbert. He is what he is.

And there really aren't any excuses. He needs to differentiate himself these last few weeks, or it's going to be a tough offseason for him. We're about to be 16 weeks into the season, and it feels like Week 6 considering the lack of progress, which is frustrating. No idea what the coaches are thinking and only they know where things are at there. But obviously, it wasn't close to good enough Sunday, and another game like that - which is entirely possible against Cincinnati - definitely isn't going to sit well.

 

[upstater1]

Just read an article on Greg Roman on the outs in Baltimore. Amazing that 3 years ago they were putting up 35 pts a game and Lamar Jackson was MVP.

The NFL figures you out. You better have a Plan B, C, D, etc.

Watching Sean McVay tonight, that's obvious.

Now they apparently have big salary cap problems. No 1st round draft picks.

Watch him bail.

 

[upstater1]

If Jones plays like he did yesterday the rest of the way, maybe and I emphasize maybe, Kraft would ask for a change.

But who is the Brady who has come along to replace Jones? Kraft was on board trading Bledsoe after Brady won a Super Bowl. And Bledsoe netted the Pats a first round pick. So there was a strategic reason to trade Bledsoe.

It doesn't have to be a Brady, but yes I don't see anybody that would qualify right now.

Who comes in?

Some Patriot fans are talking about Lamar Jackson. Uh, no. He's not leaving Baltimore.

I honestly have no idea who we'd replace Mac with. Jordan Love? Garoppolo? I can't think of anyone. Not a single guy.

And that's the problem.

 

[Ian]

It doesn't have to be a Brady, but yes I don't see anybody that would qualify right now.

Who comes in?

Some Patriot fans are talking about Lamar Jackson. Uh, no. He's not leaving Baltimore.

I honestly have no idea who we'd replace Mac with. Jordan Love? Garoppolo? I can't think of anyone. Not a single guy.

And that's the problem.

That's the thing some people don't seem to realize. You only typically get one of those guys every few years and sometimes even a little longer. That's why the ideal scenario would be for Mac to work out so they can at least focus on building talent around him and getting some continuity.

Aside from that, I think Garoppolo is obviously the safe choice, but that's about it. I've seen Belichick praising Jackson like crazy and if things went south between him and the Ravens, I could sort of possibly see the interest on his end in coming here. But I don't think they'd pay him what he'd want and it would also mess up any shot at putting additional talent around him.

So yeah, it's definitely potentially a mess.

 

[Rob0729]

You're ******ed Rob.

Bad sacks, meaning yards lost off sacks. You don't know what you're talking about and so busy making excuses for Mac. So it's hard to blame you.

So once again dummy. Yes Mac absolutely has improved on taking "Bad Sacks" compared to last year.

Buddy you're a tier 3 poster on a tier 1 posting rage. Take a few weeks off and then a few more.

LoL! So you don’t factor in the fact he was one of the least sacked QBs in the league last year behind an o-line that struggled a lot part of his ability to step up in the pocket. He was only sacked 28 times last year how many were bad sacks?

Your idol Matt Waldman loves the way Jones manipulates the pocket. But of course you’ll say he is wrong there.

Here is more from experts who rave about Jones’ pocket presence in 2021..



The coach added that he "loves" Jones' pocket presence, and that the second-year quarterback "feels the game and sees the game as well as any young QB.”

AFC coach details the most underrated aspect of Mac Jones' game

Does Mac Jones have what it takes to be a successful NFL quarterback? An AFC defensive coach had some positive things to say about the young Patriots QB.

www.nbcsports.com

 

[upstater1]

That's the thing some people don't seem to realize. You only typically get one of those guys every few years and sometimes even a little longer. That's why the ideal scenario would be for Mac to work out so they can at least focus on building talent around him and getting some continuity.

Aside from that, I think Garoppolo is obviously the safe choice, but that's about it. I've seen Belichick praising Jackson like crazy and if things went south between him and the Ravens, I could sort of possibly see the interest on his end in coming here. But I don't think they'd pay him what he'd want and it would also mess up any shot at putting additional talent around him.

So yeah, it's definitely potentially a mess.

I'd give 10 #1 draft choices for Herbert at this point.

 

[Rob0729]

Like @BaconGrundleCandy was saying, the sack yard totals last year were tough.

The number of sacks are obviously one thing, the yards lost are another. Jones lost 241 yards off the 28 times he was sacked in 2021, which was in the lower part of the league and not in a good way. To put that in perspective, both Roethlisberger and Lamar Jackson were sacked 38 times, but lost 239 and 190 yards, respectively. That's definitely a big difference. Carr was also sacked 40 times and lost 241-yards and Matt Ryan went down 40 times and lost 274.

Josh Allen (26/164) and Aaron Rodgers (30/188) are two more good examples.

Obviously, we saw several times this year where Jones scrambled and lost a bunch of yards that put them in long-yardage situations and killed drives. He's gotten a little better about getting rid of it over the last month, or at least trying to avoid negative plays, but I think most people will remember the game Belichick went off on him, and that seemed to definitely push the issue and force that change.

But Jones takes deeper drops than most QB. That plays a lot into his yards. But even if he took Some bad sacks last year doesn’t change the fact that he would have had far more sacks last year if he wasn’t so good (at least for a rookie) in stepping up in the pocket. The experts said it not just me.

But every rookie QB lost tons of yards last year. It is probably a rookie thing. Trevor Lawrence had four more sacks than Jones and only lost 19 less yards (32 sacks for 238 yards lost). Justin Fields had 36 sacks and lost 264 yards. Their numbers are better than Jones, but not significantly. I won’t bring Wilson into this because he was a disaster.

NFL Football Player Stats & Stats Leaders - Sack Yards Lost

Free NFL football player stats and stats leaders in simple, easy to read tables. This page tracks sack yards lost statistics.

www.teamrankings.com

 

[Ian]

I'd give 10 #1 draft choices for Herbert at this point.

LOL, no way they're letting him go, and they're fortunate to have gotten him so close to after Rivers' tenure ended there. They're one of the few who didn't have to go without a viable QB for very long.

 

[Ian]

But Jones takes deeper drops than most QB. That plays a lot into his yards. But even if he took Some bad sacks last year doesn’t change the fact that he would have had far more sacks last year if he wasn’t so good (at least for a rookie) in stepping up in the pocket. The experts said it not just me.

That may be, but the numbers (the sack yards) obviously don't lie, and that's essentially what you can look at to get a sense of what @BaconGrundleCandy was referring to, and it was a valid point. Obviously, it wasn't quite as damaging last year because they weren't coupled with a lot of the negative penalties that have also been a bigger problem this season.