An FYI On Mac Jones

[One-If-By-Sea]

Patricia needs to let him fling it. Remove the training wheels, he doesn't need them. For those of you w/ the clichè that because he's a rookie he needs to be managed, just stop. I'm so excited, we've got ourselves a wunderkind.

This is sarcasm? Houston Baptist is a college or a high school team? Western Kentucky's opponents are? And Zappe couldn't complete 2/3 of his passes (63.4%) against those feared opponents?

I agree. The jump from Houston Baptist and W Kentucky to the NFL is trivial. No training wheels are needed. I love the kid, but it sounded worse the more you wrote.

PS What is a wunderkind?

 

[Tunescribe]

Don't agree with some of the explanations for Jones’ struggles.

The habits/traits that people are saying are new to this season, aren't really new to this season, IMO.

Jones had issues with feeling the pocket last season, too. He had issues seeing the field/post-snap and missing underneath defenders last season. He had issues throwing some 'WTF' passes last season. He had issues with timing and rhythm last season (which often is the result of him struggling to stay calm in the pocket, and this is what leads to sloppy mechanics and bad velocity, not his physical traits).

Jones just doesn't strike me as particularly calm. He seems to do well when things are going well, but I've been concerned with how he responds to in-game adversity.

I know this is a hot-take, but listening to and observing Zappe, he seems more self-assured, steady, and mature at this point in time than Jones. Zappe's personality seems more serious, especially after positive plays, whereas Jones appears really let himself indulge the positive moments at times, and have fun (which is fine, to an extent).

There's an air of confidence, character, and command that I can feel watching Zappe in the huddle and on the field, that I've never quite felt with Jones. I know that's entirely subjective but it's the way I've felt watching the two of them.

I think Jones is a good kid. I think he has the potential to improve and get better. I think he does a lot of things well right now. I'm impressed with his aptitude and conscientiousness. I think the team can win games with him.

Am I convinced Jones gives this team the best chance to win games? We need to see more from Zappe because one game is not a big enough data pool, but based on how Zappe played against Detroit, if he can build on that and do similar against stiffer competition, there's no doubt Zappe is the guy I want starting at QB for this team moving forward. Point blank.

Just because some of us like Zappe's poise doesn't mean we're all clamoring for him. I most certainly still see Mac as a vastly superior prospect in all regards except (for now) poise when moving in the pocket. It's natural to have a little concern about Mac's jittery pocket movements. I personally can't just pretend to be blind about it. Doesn't mean I don't believe he'll get over it. In fact I fully expect he will, and it's gonna blow a lot of people's minds how this offense operates once he does.

There is just so much amiss here, foremost attempting to assess quarterback play in a vacuum sans considerations for experience level, OL cohesion, receivers, opponents, etc., etc. Let alone believing one can accurately discern intangibles (confidence, character, command, etc.) from watching on TV. Just like early last season with Mac, Zappe has been/will be tightly scripted. But one telltale difference regarding Zappe vs. Mac is the coaches don't (so far) trust Zappe to throw vertically in the red zone.

Yes, Zappe appears poised and has done well enough on a short leash but it's just too small a sample size to suggest he's starter material. IF Zappe strings together three or four turnover-free wins maybe we can have a discussion. But Mac right now is the better player in all respects -- athletically, arm strength, knowledge of the playbook and knowledge of how to attack NFL defenses. Also as a leader acknowledged by teammates, which manifested in last year's training camp.

OL play has so much to do with whether the QB appears "calm" and possesses pocket awareness. The Patriots OL early this season has been unsettled both personnel-wise (Strange getting acclimated, RT position in flux) and adjusting to a new system. The combination of not being asked to do much vs. a weak opponent in the Lions greatly helped the OL and Zappe put things together. This reminded me of what Jacoby Brissett did a few years ago vs. the Texans, after which people here were singing Brissett's praises as Brady's heir apparent. And we know how that turned out.

One fair criticism of Mac this season appears to be his cautious buy-in to Patricia's system re. significant changes to last year's playbook, whereas Zappe knows nothing any different while being asked to do far, far less. Ignorance is bliss in Zappe's case, but the real proof in the pudding with him can only come with extended playing time.

 

[catent]

The OL was giving Mac adequate protection throughout the season. They had some communication breakdowns against Miami, but otherwise have been fine. It’s not like they went from sieve to stalwart once Zappe took the field.

Drew Bledsoe could also claims all of those things over Brady in 2001: Arm strength, athleticism, knowledge of playbook, NFL experience.

Brisset never played as well with New England as Zappe did last Sunday.

Zappe wasn’t tightly scripted. Go watch Ted Johnson and Phil Perry’s breakdown. Zappe made at least one full-field read, going from his left to right and avoiding the rush in the process. He was not one-read and done. He played the QB position very well.

No argument from me that he needs to do it consistently and against better competition, but to trivialize what he did last Sunday is to dismiss some really great stuff he showed.

 

[catent]

And for what it’s worth, when Belichick was asked who the starter will be when Jones is healthy, he hedged and said they’ll see when they get there.

Knowing BB he very well could’ve said “we have every expectation Mac will be the starter when he’s healthy”, that wouldn’t be out of character for him.

Instead he said they’ll see, and I think that’s an accurate reflection of how he’s approaching the situation.

 

[venecol]

This is sarcasm? Houston Baptist is a college or a high school team? Western Kentucky's opponents are? And Zappe couldn't complete 2/3 of his passes (63.4%) against those feared opponents?

I agree. The jump from Houston Baptist and W Kentucky to the NFL is trivial. No training wheels are needed. I love the kid, but it sounded worse the more you wrote.

PS What is a wunderkind?

Your sarcasm is noted. Can't wait for you to eat crow soon. FBS Div I school but didn't see you questioning level of competition of Tennessee-Chattanooga for Cole Strange. But you're correct, the level of competition is so weak that every year Conference USA QBs break NCAA Div I passing yds and TDs records.

I listed his college completion % (69.2%). Do you have dyslexia? When Mac started out last season throwing at a >70% rate everyone went crazy. He settled at 67.6% for the season. This kid will do better, probably ends at 69 or 70%. He's accurate and doesn't throw many picks.

Here's a kid that didn't have any 1st team snaps throughout camp (unlike Mac last season). An after thought. Goes into Lambeau not expected to play (Patricia had game plans for Hoyer & Mac), yet goes toe to toe w/ Rodgers. Didn't see anyone questioning Meyers or Rham's performance against the worst NFL D, yet everyone is questioning Zappe's? So your argument is he faced weak competition in college and then again in the NFL (Packers & Lions)? Weak sauce dude. He balled out. That's what this young phenom does (wunderkind). I just hope the coaches see what I see and let this kid play until Mac is 100% healthy. Hoyer is out. We need Mac healthy.

 

[Tunescribe]

The OL was giving Mac adequate protection throughout the season. They had some communication breakdowns against Miami, but otherwise have been fine. It’s not like they went from sieve to stalwart once Zappe took the field.

Drew Bledsoe could also claims all of those things over Brady in 2001: Arm strength, athleticism, knowledge of playbook, NFL experience.

Brisset never played as well with New England as Zappe did last Sunday.

Zappe wasn’t tightly scripted. Go watch Ted Johnson and Phil Perry’s breakdown. Zappe made at least one full-field read, going from his left to right and avoiding the rush in the process. He was not one-read and done. He played the QB very well. No argument from me that he needs to do it consistently and against better competition, but to trivialize what he did last Sunday is inaccurate.

OF COURSE Zappe was tightly scripted!!! What else would five field goals vs. Detroit's absent defense and no vertical red zone passing tell you? But that's not his fault as a rookie starting his first game with limited knowledge of the playbook and limited experience reading NFL defenses. And I certainly was not trivializing what he did, avoiding turnovers and executing what he was asked to do with poise and efficiency were impressive accomplishments.

Also that's not to say the kid has not begun to see the whole field here and there, which was the point of Ted Johnson's diagrammed throw to Henry. Still, many plays were left on the field these last two weeks that Mac likely would have made. Maybe Zappe has enough "it factor" to be a starter but I very highly doubt it.

Finally, don't even try going there with the Bledsoe-Brady comparison. Please.

 

[Tunescribe]

PS What is a wunderkind?

A "natural-born star out of nowhere." In Patsfans parlance a term prematurely reserved for the likes of Michael Bishop, Jacoby Brissett and now Bailey Zappe.

 

[catent]

Why are you bothered by the Brady-Bledsoe comparison? I’ve seen others also bothered by this and I can’t understand why.

No one is comparing GOAT Tom Brady to Bailey Zappe; they’re comparing 2001 Tom Brady to 2022 Bailey Zappe, which is apt given the circumstances.

No one (in their right mind) is guaranteeing that Zappe becomes Brady, or is even saying that Zappe and Brady as players are all that similar. Just saying Zappe finds himself right now in a similar situation to where Brady was in 2001, which I think is true.

To take issue with 2022 Zappe being compared to 2001 Brady seems to suggest that in 2001 we all already knew what Brady was going to become.

But the whole reason I initially brought it up is because if we’re assuming the more talented/experienced player *right now* will be the ultimate starter for some indefinite period of time, then Brady never would’ve unseated Bledsoe.

One game won’t win Zappe the starting job. If he can continue to impress during the week of preparation and replicate what he did against Detroit against better competition, like Cleveland on the road with Garrett and Clowney coming off the edge, he’s going to give Belichick a really tough decision to make.

 

[Tunescribe]

And for what it’s worth, when Belichick was asked who the starter will be when Jones is healthy, he hedged and said they’ll see when they get there.

Knowing BB he very well could’ve said “we have every expectation Mac will be the starter when he’s healthy”, that wouldn’t be out of character for him.

Instead he said they’ll see, and I think that’s an accurate reflection of how he’s approaching the situation.

Apparently you haven't seen many BB press conferences, he doesn't answer questions unless they're about Lawrence Taylor in 1984. I didn't see the one you cite here but assuming that question was asked and you've quoted him accurately, it could mean a number of things including (A) he wants opponents to spend time preparing for both QBs or (B) he wants to light a fire under Mac. But like I said earlier, if Zappe strings together several turnover-free wins vs. legit defenses there *might* be grounds for discussion.

Why are you bothered by the Brady-Bledsoe comparison? I’ve seen others also bothered by this and I can’t understand why.

No one is comparing GOAT Tom Brady to Bailey Zappe; they’re comparing 2001 Tom Brady to Bailey Zappe, which is extraordinary apt given the circumstances.

No one (in their right mind) is guaranteeing that Zappe becomes Brady, or is even saying that Zappe and Brady as players are all that similar. Just saying they find themselves in similar situations to where Brady was in 2001, which I think is fair and true.

To take issue with 2022 Zappe being compared to 2001 Brady seems to suggest that in 2001 we all already knew what Brady was going to become.

Several reasons, most of which should be obvious to you. But in this case primarily because Mac's strengths are cerebral -- seeing the whole field, processing and adjusting on the fly. He already has demonstrated that. Let's say for the sake of argument that given enough time in the system and experience on the field (unlikely), Zappe could approximate that. What we're left with is a player who is shorter and slower than Mac with demonstrably less arm strength. In other words, a good candidate to be Mac's backup going forward.

 

[Ian]

I understand your point but you are guessing. Yesterday was back to a vanilla game plan like we ran last year with Mac.

Will it change going forward with Zappe? I doubt it because no QB picks the game up fast enough in their first season.

Will it change when Mac returns? I think Yes. But there is no hurry to return Mac since our schedule is so weak for 4 more weeks.

We will not win against the good teams (like in the playoffs) if we are not more aggressive offensively (pushing the ball downfield). With TB12 we could strike deep anytime. Now, not so much, so teams put 8 and 9 men in the box. Yesterday was no exception, but Detroit could not execute. Like you say our running game mixing power and zone blocks is more effective than last year.

I think we're all guessing since obviously none of us know for sure. But I agree, they're going to have to be better about keeping defenses honest and part of that is going to have to include the uptick in play-action, which wasn't utilized much the first few weeks compared to the last two, which Evan Lazar pointed out the numbers and the change was significant. And that part of the game was/is one of Mac's strengths.

But I do agree with @Tunescribe that coming off of Josh McDaniels, Jones probably had a lot more questions about things, and I think that also tells us that players in the locker room likely did as well. That probably didn't help, but that also potentially stemmed from the miserable results they had during camp and the preseason when every day was a grind, and they just seemed to keep banging their heads against the wall.

Obviously, Zappe didn't know any other system, so it's probably been a little easier for him. Again, he's been asked to do very little so far and they've been fortunate that the offensive line has been fantastic in the ground game the last two weeks where they didn't really need him to. But so far in two games he's only had to throw a combined total of 4 passes in the 4th quarter (2/2 27yds at GB, 1/2 23yds vs DET). Eventually, some team is going to stack things up and make the kid sling it. Fortunately, at least he's got Meyers and Thornton now, which should help him hopefully get through that.

Either way, like I said, it's advantageous for him to succeed because it sets this team up for a significant return on either player down the road. Hopefully, Mac gets it together and picks up where he left off. However, if he doesn't it's been a fun stretch seeing this kid develop a little. I still think Mac being out and having the perspective of not playing and seeing someone else do it is going to make a big difference, but I guess we'll see.

 

[n1997y]

... But so far in two games he's only had to throw a combined total of 4 passes in the 4th quarter (2/2 27yds at GB, 1/2 23yds vs DET). Eventually, some team is going to stack things up and make the kid sling it. Fortunately, at least he's got Meyers and Thornton now, which should help him hopefully get through that.

another way of saying that would be that he has completed 75% of his attempts in the fourth quarter, going 3 for 4 and 50 yards, for 12.5 ypa.

and I’m sure the opponents were making each of those attempts as difficult as they could, so theres no reason to think the level of difficulty will be significantly higher for more attempts. If opponents are stacking the box that won’t make the pass defense he faces harder.

over the past couple of games the team is doing well at taking what’s available, and as long as they continue to do that I think they’ll keep doing well, even if Zappe is playing while Mac convalesces.

 

[catent]

Apparently you haven't seen many BB press conferences, he doesn't answer questions unless they're about Lawrence Taylor in 1984. I didn't see the one you cite here but assuming that question was asked and you've quoted him accurately, it could mean a number of things including (A) he wants opponents to spend time preparing for both QBs or (B) he wants to light a fire under Mac. But like I said earlier, if Zappe strings together several turnover-free wins vs. legit defenses there *might* be grounds for discussion.



Several reasons, most of which should be obvious to you. But in this case primarily because Mac's strengths are cerebral -- seeing the whole field, processing and adjusting on the fly. He already has demonstrated that. Let's say for the sake of argument that given enough time in the system and experience on the field (unlikely), Zappe could approximate that. What we're left with is a player who is shorter and slower than Mac with demonstrably less arm strength. In other words, a good candidate to be Mac's backup going forward.

Belichick will be surprisingly forthright at times. He's not incapable of making a statement like the one I suggested if he has conviction and feels strongly that way.

If he truly had no doubt that Jones will be the starter when he's healthy, I think he would've said as much because it's not lost on him the impact that could have on Jones' confidence and the message it'd send to the team.

Now, maybe he thinks it's likely Jones will continue starting but wants to remain noncommittal in order to put a little heat underneath him to see how he responds to some competition (real or perceived). And if he thinks that's what Jones needs right now, that should tell us something. Or, like I said, maybe he is being completely honest that he does not know and they'll make that decision when they get there.

I have no issue if folks think Jones is the better option right now but I don't think any second year player in his position should be assumed to be the automatic starter by default at this point.

I also am not totally sure about Jones seeing the field well all the time. I think he reads pre-snap defenses very well. I think he has great aptitude and does his homework, gets the offense into the right look before the snap. I think he's cerebral and heady. But going back to last season, and including the start of this one, he's had several INTs that have been throw right to an underneath defender who he completely completely lost track of. Seems that's something he needs to work on, keeping track of underneath defenders.

Zappe's arm strength isn't far off Jones at all. They're quite similar. Zappe has more zip on his short-to-intermediate throws to my subjective eye test, Jones can probably get the ball further on a single heave downfield. "Demonstrably less arm strength"? Don't think so. I bet if you measured the speed on Zappe's throws, they're going to be right in Jones' range. AFAIK there is no demonstrable evidence that Zappe's passes are traveling significantly slower than Jones' - just our own perception from watching them play. Zappe is not functionally less athletic than Jones from what I've seen. That's fine, we can watch the same thing and feel different ways.

We'll see how it plays out.

 

[Ian]

another way of saying that would be that he has completed 75% of his attempts in the fourth quarter, going 3 for 4 and 50 yards, for 12.5 ypa.

and I’m sure the opponents were making each of those attempts as difficult as they could, so I see no reason to think the level of difficulty will be significantly higher for more attempts. If opponents are stacking the box that won’t make the pass defense he faces harder.

LOL, yes, you can certainly make any stat sound good depending on how you word it

And anytime the number of pass attempts increases, obviously statistically it's asking a lot for the kid to be perfect on every throw and it increases the chances for mistakes. However, I'll throw you one more and tell you Zappe is 13-of-16 (81.3%) for 155yds and 2 TDs in the second half over two games. So there's also that

 

[catent]

Reading your response to the Brady-Bledsoe comparison, you seem to be saying the comparison isn't unfair in the sense of Brady-Zappe, but more so re: Bledsoe-Jones?

If I'm reading it correctly, basically, Jones is heady and cerebral in ways Bledsoe never was, so comparing 2022 Jones to 2001 Bledsoe is unfair to Jones?

 

[Ian]

Reading your response to the Brady-Bledsoe comparison, you seem to be saying the comparison isn't unfair in the sense of Brady-Zappe, but more so re: Bledsoe-Jones?

If I'm reading it correctly, basically, Jones is heady and cerebral in ways Bledsoe never was, so comparing 2022 Jones to 2001 Bledsoe is unfair to Jones?

Jones is coming off a 10-7 season with a playoff appearance. Bledsoe was coming off of a 5-11 season and had repeated a lot of the same mistakes through his first two games in 2001 while playing for a coach who was well aware of his weaknesses and made him miserable as an opposing coordinator prior to arriving here. Brady had also been working his way up the depth chart and clearly had done enough to convince the coaches that he was a capable player, but clearly, you don't know what you have until the opportunity comes.

I don't think it's a good comparison because it's two different situations. And yes, Jones is definitely more cerebral than Bledsoe, although Bledsoe was obviously more gifted athletically (arm-wise). Zappe's also very smart, so the two are similar players.

But it's definitely different because there isn't the same contrast between them like there was with Brady and Bledsoe. Although my other issue is the fact we've never been great as a fan base in these situations because people always seem to have a tough time supporting both guys without tearing down the other when in fact, it's definitely good to have both.

What happened in Pittsburgh in the playoffs that year was a key example of that. People can key in on the mistakes Drew made in that game but it doesn't change the fact he didn't lose track of the downs and get sacked and do things that could have cost them the game. Although that crazy toss he did still sticks in my mind (that fortunately didn't result in a turnover), but other than that, we were lucky he was still on the roster

 

[n1997y]

… Still, many plays were left on the field these last two weeks that Mac likely would have made. Maybe Zappe has enough "it factor" to be a starter but I very highly doubt it.

Based on Mac’s performance before his injury it might be arguable just how likely it is that those plays would’ve been made, and also might be questioned about whether more miscues were also likely.

Lots of excuses have been suggested for Mac’s sophomore slump. No excuses haves been needed for Zappe, beyond pointing out that he’s been tightly scripted so he shouldn’t be overrated.

 

[crawhammer]

Jones got a lot of his turnovers out of the way early last year too and then settled down. Plenty of reason to believe that will be the case when he gets back out there.

Although, your take isn't entirely accurate...

Jones games 1-6: 7 TDs & 6 INTs
Jones games 7-12: 11 TDs & 3 INTs
Jones games 13-18: 8 TDs & 7 INTs

Jones had issues with turnovers over the final third of the 2021 season as well, and it has carried over into 2022. The team's record also mirrored his TD/INT ratio... games 1-6 (2-4), games 7-12 (6-0), games 13-18 (2-4).

Given the way he finished last season, and started this season, turnovers should be a major concern until he proves otherwise.

 

[Tunescribe]

Based on Mac’s performance before his injury it might be arguable just how likely it is that those plays would’ve been made, and also might be questioned about whether more miscues were also likely.

Lots of excuses have been suggested for Mac’s sophomore slump. No excuses haves been needed for Zappe, beyond pointing out that he’s been tightly scripted so he shouldn’t be overrated.

"Sophomore slump"? After three games, in a new system with new coaches, new players and problems with an unsettled OL that nearly got him killed. Those aren't "excuses."

People being anxious to move on from Mac (second in 2021 NFL ORY voting) for an unproven rookie is mind-boggling.

 

[bobbutts]

Maybe Zappe is more like a young Flutie without the college fame.

 

[upstater1]

Why are you bothered by the Brady-Bledsoe comparison? I’ve seen others also bothered by this and I can’t understand why.

No one is comparing GOAT Tom Brady to Bailey Zappe; they’re comparing 2001 Tom Brady to 2022 Bailey Zappe, which is apt given the circumstances.

No one (in their right mind) is guaranteeing that Zappe becomes Brady, or is even saying that Zappe and Brady as players are all that similar. Just saying Zappe finds himself right now in a similar situation to where Brady was in 2001, which I think is true.

To take issue with 2022 Zappe being compared to 2001 Brady seems to suggest that in 2001 we all already knew what Brady was going to become.

But the whole reason I initially brought it up is because if we’re assuming the more talented/experienced player *right now* will be the ultimate starter for some indefinite period of time, then Brady never would’ve unseated Bledsoe.

One game won’t win Zappe the starting job. If he can continue to impress during the week of preparation and replicate what he did against Detroit against better competition, like Cleveland on the road with Garrett and Clowney coming off the edge, he’s going to give Belichick a really tough decision to make.

The problem is the Bledsoe - Mac Jones comparison.

I loved what I saw from Zappe this weekend. But I also loved what I saw from Mac Jones last year.

This is getting really mindless.