Patricia Vs Judge For Play Calling Duties?

[upstater1]

AB, kept his nose clean in 2020 & won a SB.

And you don't see why this is irrelevant?

The post I responded to was about Brady not being able to play with new WRs.

 

[venecol]

And you don't see why this is irrelevant?

The post I responded to was about Brady not being able to play with new WRs.

Here's what you posted:

And all of these guys went elsewhere and did nothing, or retired. Galloway, Wayne, Ochocinco, these were all end of the road players. I don't know of any Patriots WRs who came to the Patriots and then had more success elsewhere.

I do know plenty of them though that did well with the Patriots, and not very well when they left, like Hogan and Givens.

Do we have a single example of a WR who did better elsewhere?

AB came in and immediately clicked w/ Brady in his only game (scored a TD). He then was 86'd. Went to TB, again a new system, and played well, winning a SB.

 

[upstater1]

Here's what you posted:

AB came in and immediately clicked w/ Brady in his only game (scored a TD). He then was 86'd. Went to TB, again a new system, and played well, winning a SB.

Irrelevant and everyone knows why

 

[Ring 6]

No, but then failing someplace at WR and then going on to succeed elsewhere is unusual. Can you cite any such players from any team? There are plenty of examples of good players that get dissatisfied and move on and succeed elsewhere of course, but I'm asking for examples of players that started out doing badly and then go on to great success.

This isn’t the argument.
You are saying receivers came here as successful receivers and failed BECAUSE OF THE SYSYEM
I say they failed because they were over the hill.
If they went on to never do well they we’re over the hill.
If it was only the system they would have gone to a different system and had success.

You now seem to be arguing no receiver has ever done poorly then done well, so how can you blame the system?
Good, bad, retire isn’t a system issue.
Good, bad, leave and get good again would be.

 

[venecol]

Irrelevant and everyone knows why

Don't see how. Point is, if you're a good receiver, you're going to play well regardless of the system. The guys you mentioned were either at the end of their careers or jags (even the ones that had partial success here). There's been very few great receivers that have come to the Pats to begin with.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

You now seem to be arguing no receiver has ever done poorly then done well, so how can you blame the system?
Good, bad, retire isn’t a system issue.
Good, bad, leave and get good again would be.

I agree that the vets who did badly here didn't go on to do well elsewhere. But at that point they are a year older and coming off a bad year, so likely doesn't mean much that they didn't go on to success elsewhere. Chad Ochocinco admitted that he could never get his head around the playbook, so that says something, as he was a very successful receiver prior to coming here.

As for the younger failures, my point is that rookie receivers that fail someplace very rarely are successful somewhere else, so the lack of success after failing here isn't particularly informative.

The further your system is from college systems the more of a crapshoot drafting will be. So that is perhaps a partial explanation of why their WR draft picks have pretty uniformly sucked.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Don't see how. Point is, if you're a good receiver, you're going to play well regardless of the system. The guys you mentioned were either at the end of their careers or jags (even the ones that had partial success here). There's been very few great receivers that have come to the Pats to begin with.

Amazing we're arguing about guys who were at end of their careers and were successful with their prior teams as examples.

Lots of reaching going on lately.

 

[upstater1]

Don't see how. Point is, if you're a good receiver, you're going to play well regardless of the system. The guys you mentioned were either at the end of their careers or jags (even the ones that had partial success here). There's been very few great receivers that have come to the Pats to begin with.

The original post I responded to argued that due to Brady's famous inability to work with 1st year and new WRs and because of the offense's difficulty, the change to a simpler offense might make for more personnel success.

I pointed out that although this might be true, we can judge the results on the basis of failed WR draft picks and failed FA signings (of older WRs).

Antonio Brown's play on the field in New England was not a failure. So he doesn't count as one of the receivers who couldn't get this offense / or play with Brady, so he went elsewhere and had success.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that the vets who did badly here didn't go on to do well elsewhere. But at that point they are a year older and coming off a bad year, so likely doesn't mean much that they didn't go on to success elsewhere. Chad Ochocinco admitted that he could never get his head around the playbook, so that says something, as he was a very successful receiver prior to coming here.

As for the younger failures, my point is that rookie receivers that fail someplace very rarely are successful somewhere else, so the lack of success after failing here isn't particularly informative.

The further your system is from college systems the more of a crapshoot drafting will be. So that is perhaps a partial explanation of why their WR draft picks have pretty uniformly sucked.

Ocho cinco was a dummy who succeeded in a system that he didn’t have to think. A system for dummies isn’t better than a system that utilizes the players intelligence to an advantage.

The system has worked fine. It has been extraordinarily effective. Dumbing it down would have made it less effective.

 

[203Pat]

Ocho cinco was a dummy who succeeded in a system that he didn’t have to think. A system for dummies isn’t better than a system that utilizes the players intelligence to an advantage.

The system has worked fine. It has been extraordinarily effective. Dumbing it down would have made it less effective.

So if a guy has a lot of success in the league in a "dumb" system that is somehow his fault? Either way Chad Jackson was statistically better than anyone we ever drafted at receiver.

 

[All3Phases]

Ocho cinco was a dummy who succeeded in a system that he didn’t have to think. A system for dummies isn’t better than a system that utilizes the players intelligence to an advantage.

The system has worked fine. It has been extraordinarily effective. Dumbing it down would have made it less effective.

Isn’t that what they’re doing now?

 

[Ring 6]

So if a guy has a lot of success in the league in a "dumb" system that is somehow his fault? Either way Chad Jackson was statistically better than anyone we ever drafted at receiver.

Not sure where fault comes into it.

If you think it would have been better for the patriots to change the entire offense to a stupid offense so ocho cinco could succeed, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ring 6]

Isn’t that what they’re doing now?

No

 

[All3Phases]

No

Interesting

 

[Ring 6]

Interesting

Why don’t you tell me what they are doing? You seem to think you can read minds and have adopted a belief that every speculation is fact.

 

[venecol]

On players noting that some of the terminology is different than it was with Josh McDaniels and what went into changing some of the offensive terminology this offseason…

“Well, we’ve had a lot of changes offensively in the last couple of years. It’s a good time to streamline things. We did that defensively a couple of years ago and felt like this was a good time to do it offensively. There’s an element of that every year.”

On when he says ‘streamline’ if that means the language?…

“Sure, that’s part of it.”

On if that’s for the players’ benefit, for coaches, or for both …

“Well anybody that’s been here for 20 some years understands the process and what words mean certain things and what refers to certain situations and all that. Somebody that’s coming in here and has only been here a couple of weeks wouldn’t have any way of correlating all those things. So I think there’s other ways to sequentially teach them, as an example. So yeah, absolutely. We do that normally every year. But it’s been more on offense this year. It was probably more on defense a couple of years ago.”

On if it’s a new system or just a part of a streamlining process…


“I don’t know.”


On how big the changes are that they’re making…


“I don’t know. We make changes every year. I wouldn’t be able to rank them.”

On if we’re potentially going to see them run an entirely new offense that we’ve never seen before or if they’re just running the current plays in a different ways …

“I don’t know.”

Bill being very evasive on the question of running a new offense is telling. He could've simply said No. He also acknowledged the streamlining was for the benefit of both players and coached. Hmmm

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[All3Phases]

Why don’t you tell me what they are doing? You seem to think you can read minds and have adopted a belief that every speculation is fact.

I mean, we heard BB say theyre streamlining and standardizing the offense. We have heard Bourne say the terminology is mostly changing...Id guess that its going to simplify things and not make them more complicated right? I dont think its a bad thing at all

 

[203Pat]

Not sure where fault comes into it.

If you think it would have been better for the patriots to change the entire offense to a stupid offense so ocho cinco could succeed, we will have to agree to disagree.

My point was it was the coaching staff not realizing he wouldn't be a system fit here. He had success elsewhere so he wasn't a bad player just a bad fit.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Here's Cam on his time here:

He elaborated, adding that he spent countless hours with quarterbacks coach Jedd Fisch and offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels trying to learn his new system. In his time with New England, the team went 7–9, with Newton contributing eight touchdowns and 10 interceptions over 15 games.

“There was countless hours with so many different people trying to teach me certain things and it was just brain overload. There was times I was going to the line and I’m still thinking. I’m thinking about the enunciation of the play, I’m thinking about forgetting my motions. I’m thinking about my sight adjust. I’m thinking about certain things so that’s the f---ed up situation. Did I know it? Yes. To the degree that I needed to know it in order to show the world that I’m still Cam Newton? No, I didn’t. But I put myself in that situation.”

 

[Ring 6]

My point was it was the coaching staff not realizing he wouldn't be a system fit here. He had success elsewhere so he wasn't a bad player just a bad fit.

They did realize it that’s why he sat on the bench.