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Concepts some posters could benefit from learning

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So instead of addressing any of my arguments or logic in an intelligent manner you try to reduce this discussion to a tacky bet? Get some class, go back to actually READ the post, and come back with an intelleigent response. Thanks. For someone who was trying to make himself look smart, you came off with a really dumb and immature response.

I've given the #'s numerous times in this thread. the odds of winning ALL games X,Y,Z can be found by multiplying the individual odds to win each game.

2 posters mocked me for stating a mathematical proof.

so I offered money on my side to back up my statements. neither replied.
 
See above post. The likliehood of that happening is the same as flipping a coin 50 times and getting 35 heads. Does 35 heads out of 50 tries SEEM that crazy?

Yaz WAS clutch in those games, no doubt about it. But we are discussing the factors of being clutch. That is, did Yaz possess an ability to become amazing like that in the most necessary situations only, or was it a factor of luck or something else? We can't possibly know why this rare occurrence happened, we simply know that it DID.

to further is, the article I linked to showed how Yaz's clutchness went away in the later years studied. if clutch hitting was a skill, then why couldn't Yaz exhibit his 1967 clutchness later on?
 
Why? You've been exposed as a complete fraud and it's fun watching you act as if you really know what you're talking about.

link to where that happened? I must have missed it.
 
RayClay,

have you had a chance to read any of the articles I linked to?
 
This has been an interesting and enlightening thread. Sometimes real world events don't quite follow the normal curve. For an interesting analysis of the pitfalls consider reading "The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable" by Nassim Nicolas Taub, the polymath author of "Fooled by Randomness" writing about unexpected, really bad events that can ruin your day.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Im...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195309011&sr=8-1

From a review...
Nassim explains, is that we place too much weight on the odds that past events will repeat (diligently trying to follow the path of the "millionaire next door," when unrepeatable chance is a better explanation). Instead, the really important events are rare and unpredictable. He calls them Black Swans, which is a reference to a 17th century philosophical thought experiment. In Europe all anyone had ever seen were white swans; indeed, "all swans are white" had long been used as the standard example of a scientific truth. So what was the chance of seeing a black one? Impossible to calculate, or at least they were until 1697, when explorers found Cygnus atratus in Australia.

Nassim argues that most of the really big events in our world are rare and unpredictable, and thus trying to extract generalizable stories to explain them may be emotionally satisfying, but it's practically useless. September 11th is one such example, and stock market crashes are another. Or, as he puts it, "History does not crawl, it jumps." Our assumptions grow out of the bell-curve predictability of what he calls "Mediocristan," while our world is really shaped by the wild powerlaw swings of "Extremistan."
 
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to further is, the article I linked to showed how Yaz's clutchness went away in the later years studied. if clutch hitting was a skill, then why couldn't Yaz exhibit his 1967 clutchness later on?

skills erode,especially in the pre- steroid era.
 
skills erode,especially in the pre- steroid era.

so you're saying that good players will tend to get more clutch hits than inferior players?
 
no, I'm saying that if YOU consider hitting a skill then it follows that hitting skills erode as a player ages, as demonstrated by the statistics of every great hitter who has ever played double digit seasons.

so you're saying that good players will tend to get more clutch hits than inferior players?

how the hell you get THAT out of what I posted is mystifying to me
 
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no, I'm saying that if YOU consider hitting a skill then it follows that hitting skills erode as a player ages, as demonstrated by the statistics of every great hitter who has ever played double digit seasons.

so you're saying that good players will tend to get more clutch hits than inferior players?

how the hell you get THAT out of what I posted is mystifying to me

why was Yaz less clutch in 1969 or 1970 than in 1967?
 
his skills began to erode
 
no, I'm saying that if YOU consider hitting a skill then it follows that hitting skills erode as a player ages, as demonstrated by the statistics of every great hitter who has ever played double digit seasons.

so you're saying that good players will tend to get more clutch hits than inferior players?

how the hell you get THAT out of what I posted is mystifying to me



I THINK what he is trying to say is this...

If Yaz's skills declined in the later years, he is less likely to get hits in all situations including the clutch. If clutch was in fact a skill, why when his skills started to erode did his "clutchness" disappear?

IF the ability to up your game in the clutch is a repeatable skill, shouldn't that skill erode at the same rate as your other hitting skills? So even if he had less talent to hit the ball in later years, why did he not still step up at clutch times?


If he goes .300 regular season, .350 postseason one year, and then in later years his skill has eroded to a .250 hitter, his clutchness should still somewhat be there to hit better than .250 in clutch situations, correct?
 
F the ability to up your game in the clutch is a repeatable skill, shouldn't that skill erode at the same rate as your other hitting skills? So even if he had less talent to hit the ball in later years, why did he not still step up at clutch times?

uh...I've yet to see rates equated amongst skills...admittedly, I've never thought of delving into the miniscule picking apart of every at bat over every season when I watch and enjoy baseball.

If you assume he had less talent to hit a baseball in later years wouldn't it naturally follow that his clutchness would also decrease. Are you saying every other skill erodes but the skill to be clutch? What were Willie Mays' clutch stats in his last years as a Met? The same as they were when he played with the Giants.

Of course, basically I feel this whole discussion falls in the "mostly mularkey" column. Stats are a useful tool, yes...but absolute indicators? Common sense dictates otherwise.
 
F the ability to up your game in the clutch is a repeatable skill, shouldn't that skill erode at the same rate as your other hitting skills? So even if he had less talent to hit the ball in later years, why did he not still step up at clutch times?

uh...I've yet to see rates equated amongst skills...admittedly, I've never thought of delving into the miniscule picking apart of every at bat over every season when I watch and enjoy baseball.

If you assume he had less talent to hit a baseball in later years wouldn't it naturally follow that his clutchness would also decrease. Are you saying every other skill erodes but the skill to be clutch? What were Willie Mays' clutch stats in his last years as a Met? The same as they were when he played with the Giants.

Of course, basically I feel this whole discussion falls in the "mostly mularkey" column. Stats are a useful tool, yes...but absolute indicators? Common sense dictates otherwise.


No one is talking about delving into anything while watching the game. I'm in this discussion, but I don't sit there and think about it while I'm watching sports. I'm still a FANATIC first.

If clutch is the ability to succeed, above your norm, in a pressure situation. Then regardless of what your norm is, you should still be able to exceed that in pressure situations. Maybe not as much as in your prime, if in fact your skills have eroded.

The numbers SUPPORT the claim that a hit in the clutch is just as likely as a hit at any other time in the season. Supporting the claim doesn't prove it however, and stats are definitely not absolute indicators, nothing is (except maybe Miss Cleo? lol)
 
I saw Nassim interviewed regarding the Black Swan maybe a couple months ago. Extremely, extremely intriguing discussion. I do not believe his hypothesis, but of course, it's the nature of the human mind that we will develop a narrative around a series of the events, leading inexorably to the conclusion ex post facto.

For example, we could call 9/11 a "black swan" event, that is, a highly improbable one, which might be comforting to a whole host of people. I do believe, however, that the events prior to 9/11 - including the previous bombing of the WTC, the continuing US presence in the Arabian penninsula after Gulf War I, and the continued rise of terror groups and anti-American sentiment during that time, militate for the interpretation that 9/11 was, in fact, part of a history around which we can construct a narrative, whose presence is a fair model of events, rather than an imposition of psuedo-reason on those events.

Similarly, the economic troubles of the Soviet Union prefaced the rise of Gorbachev (if not him, then a future equivalent,) as a highly probable outcome. Gorbachev's openings with the West, again, were a likely outcome of an economically exhausted USSR. So was the "sudden fall of Communism" a "Black Swan?" The difficulty is there is no disproving the hypothesis.

These are 2 non-sports examples.

Going back to the arguments in play here about "clutchness":

I think necessary preconditions must be present for a high degree of success during "big game" moments. Let's take Adam Vinatieri.

His leg strength was never "automatic" in the best of times. But up to about 2004, he could kick 50+ yard field goals regularly, say, half the time.

Then, he couldn't.

What does that have to do with missing a 29-yarder (for instance?) Maybe nothing. Maybe, his overall accuracy suffers if the basics -- getting enough leg into the ball to make the kick -- must be "recalibrated."

What other causality might come into play? Perhaps being surrounded by a fan base, a team, and a local media which believes all his clutch kicks were ultimately unimportant, would generate a psychological effect.

And perhaps it would not.

Finally, it is just possible that Vinatieri's psychology is influenced by a self-identification with a former team. Or, it could just be coincidence that he missed his first field-goal in the RCA Dome specifically against the New England Patriots.

Everything's a coincidence, if you argue for regression to the mean: His leg strength has coincidentally declined, exactly when the player goes past the physical peak years, and into his thirties. His accuracy unpredictably and serendipitously collapses specifically against his old team. Oh and let's not forget, the NE Patriots front office got lucky, and bet against these clutch kicks continuing into AV's later years.

The problem with football is that, with the exception of throws by a QB or rushes by a RB over a season, there are very few stats with any statistical significance, because of the miniscule sample size from which to gather the stats. How many "game-winning" and "game tying" field goals can one draw from?

This establishes a paucity of statistically significant evidence; yet, during a certain period of time we see one behavior, and during another period of time we see another behavior. The fact that explanations abound between the two behaviors can be explained by chance, or it can be explained by the differences in conditions, age, etc.

Scant statistical evidence, however, is not the same thing as utter absence of evidence, and to consign virtually all phenomena in football to random chance is nonsensical.

By the way, I don't think I truly have enough data, after only 12 touchdowns this season, that Randy Moss has in any way influenced Tom Brady's stats this year.... given the paucity of the data set, to be really confident in my analysis, I have to call both Moss and Brady "lucky." This was, by the way, the favored approach of fans of other teams when discussing the success of the Patriots, before they hit upon a causal explanation, i.e., that the Pats cheat.

The notion that the Patriots play good football seems only to come into play at the margins among opposing fans.

People being "due" for one outcome or another, by the way, has no validity in either sports or statistics, unless viewed as part of a large data set, and ex post facto. One is never "due" for a home run, a six-TD game, a 200-yard game, or anything else. But when you look back over a period of time, you can say someone was "due" for something, in a very vague sense. For instance, if after 10 years, Laurence Maroney averages 6 touchdowns a season, and if Laurence Maroney scores 2 this week after scoring none all season, you could say he was due to do that. You can not predict that Maroney will do so, based on the fact that he has not. A slump is not some counterintuitive predictor of superior performance at any given point in the slump, any more than losing 100 bucks on a slot machine is proof that some time in the next 100 dollar run, the machine will pay out a jackpot.

PFnV
 
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You're wrong on the numbers. The null hypothesis we're testing is whether or not the probabilities stay the same from nonclutch situations to clutch. If they do, then the binomial distribution is a good predictor of outcomes. THEREFORE, conversely, if the binomial distribution proves empirically to be a terrible predictor of outcomes, that's evidence against the null hypothesis.

You're in better shape on the substance, because of the great difference between proving correlation and proving causality.* It could be hard to separate out true clutchness from random factors.

*Stats can be used pretty easily to prove correlation or to disprove causality. However, it's much harder to use them to disprove correlation or to prove causality. (3 of the 4 immediately preceding claims should be obvious to anybody who's studied stats. What I mean by the 4th -- that stats can't easily be used to disprove correlation -- is that it's hard to prove a TOTAL lack of connectedness just because the data looks pretty random overall.)



Ok, so let's ses if I have this right. In the above, the null hypothesis is that clutch situations have no effect on a batter. Since in the yaz example we come up with such a low probability under this hypothesis, we can confidently conclude that this hypothesis is not correct, at least for all batters. Therefore we should not expect all batters to perform equal in the clutch as their norm.

Is the sample size in Yaz's case too small and insignificant to use as a confident rejector of the null hypothesis? Would we need multiple samples of multiple players?
 
Great post, PFnV. (post #275)
Why can't highly paid prominent sports journalists occasionally write similar insightfull columns as this and several other thoughtfull posters provide us here?

Fans should especially note his ending paragraph about the fallacy of "dueness".
 
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again...not to belabor ANY point here, but just how does one determine the "clutch" of the 67 season with the "clutch" of a lost season like 69?

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/stats/...=&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=1969&Submit=Submit

and 67...

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/stats/...=&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=1967&Submit=Submit

In 69 the Sox finished 22 games out...but Yaz's AB's carried the same "Clutch" designation as the 1967 Impossible dream year? I'd venture to say that in 67 Yaz was as clutch a hitter as has ever been on the Red Sox.

I'd say that in 69, his opportunity to reach the "clutch" level of 67 was NONEXISTENT. Different year, different set of circumstances, different levels of pressure and ultimately a completely different adrenalin level game to game.

Did Yaz, in 69 , have a statistically comparable year to 67?...yeah, you could draw that conclusion. Did he have a sac fly in a game to drive in a winning run down 20 games in the standings?Probably...I'll be dyamed if I'm gonna look to find out. Does that sac fly mean he was "less clutch" in 69 than when he hit a game winning 3 run homer in the same situation in 67? HOW do you make that determination? How do you designate a "clutch factor" to these two events? I just don't see it.

Each season is like its own universe,seasons being nothing more than parallels.There are so many variables at work each season that to designate a "clutch" factor and then opine whether it declines the same ,slowewr or faster than other measurable skills is an exercise in futility as far as THIS fan is concerned, and I see nothing in these preceding arguments that sway me either way.
 
What you're missing is that some players love to have the ball in their hands in the last seconds of play, and others seem to quake in their boots at the thought. I still remember Kirk McGaskill (Angels) shaking so badly on the mound (Game 7, 1986 ALCS) that he simply could not pitch. Was his hideous failure a result of metrics, or the result of who he was - not Mr. Prime Time?

Don't be a reductionist. It's bad for your sex life.
 
Did Yaz, in 69 , have a statistically comparable year to 67?...yeah, you could draw that conclusion. Did he have a sac fly in a game to drive in a winning run down 20 games in the standings?Probably...I'll be dyamed if I'm gonna look to find out. Does that sac fly mean he was "less clutch" in 69 than when he hit a game winning 3 run homer in the same situation in 67? HOW do you make that determination? How do you designate a "clutch factor" to these two events? I just don't see it.

have you read this article? it will answer these questions. if you don't want to bother to try to understand it, ok, but the answers are there

http://www.geocities.com/[email protected]/CramerClutch2.htm


and again, this is NOT just Yaz we were talking about. this is every player in MLB

"This means that there is no tendency for players who were clutch hitters in 1969 to be clutch hitters in 1970. True, a few of the "clutch hitters" in 1969 were also "clutch hitters" in 1970; but as many became "unclutch" and most became average, exactly as would be expected if "clutch hitting" is really a matter of luck."

"Yaz was the most consistently untimely hitter in the majors in 1969 and 1970. But no one who saw Yastrzemski play in September 1967 would ever believe that "Carl is a good hitter, but not quite as strong when a game or the pennant is on the line""
 
1) Variance happens and matters

2) The best team doesn't always win

3) our memories are awfully selective

check it out: http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff.php

Nice post.

Bob Carroll (with Pete Palmer and John Thorn) started a lot of this in 1988 with "The Hidden Game of Football," updated in 1998. When I worked through the revised book, it struck me that the analysis was both groundbreaking and flawed. Groundbreaking because it tried to apply modern statistical analysis to play in the NFL; flawed because it overlooked the very first point you make, viz., that there is a significant standard deviation around the most likely outcome from any point on the field and any game situation.

I sincerely wish I had the time to study the Footballoutsiders methodology in depth, as you clearly have, as it makes a lot of sense to me from what I can see. I suspect that the improvements in processing speed, storage capacity, memory and software development since 1998 (and, God knows, since 1988) have something to do with the models they have been able to build and the vast improvement they have been able to make on Carroll's approach.

I just have a couple of thoughts, neither of which I have taken to their conclusions.

1) I think of Bud Grants Vikings and Norm Levy's Bills, both of which made four trips to the SuperBowl in compressed time frames (the Bills, consecutively), but came away empty. Was it simply because they had the misfortune to come up against historically great teams (Steelers, Dolphins, Raiders; Redskins, Cowboys) or was it something else that spelled the difference between being NFL dynasties and SuperBowl footnotes ("Wide right?"). Did things just break the wrong way on eight different Sunday Evenings or were they truly overwhelmed by greatness. Each lost their four shots at greatness by an average of around 17 points. Some of the games were blowouts, others were close long enough. What, if any, events could have changed one or more of those games to alter our memory of those teams?


2) Some Players are "special," because their median performance, by whatever relevant metric, is vastly differentiated from that of their peers. Even though they miss important kicks and throw untoward interceptions, the profile of their overall performance is on a different "curve" than their peers. The profile of the distribution of the performance of these players is just different than that of a player whose performance is closer to the median.

An example of the latter is Adam Vinatieri. Vinatieri's success is clearly the result of more than randomness. Indeed, as you remind us, he missed some important kicks. But, what is the "Ghost in the Machine" that made him different than hundreds of other kickers, that put him on a different curve, that enabled him to step up and make some of those kicks when others might have wilted? That's the one thing that pure statistical analysis will never be able to explain and the thing that keeps us watching and on the edge of our seats, Sunday after Sunday.
 
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