OT: New York Approves Location of New Bills Stadium

[captain stone]

…This and other articles say the roof will protect 80% of the seats, mostly the cheap seats up in the top of the bowl, so people will come to the game and either have good seats or at least not be so exposed to the weather in the cheap seats. Of course it isn't a factor for the luxury boxes, which is the main reason we see new stadiums being built.

…As above, they are saying that BUF isn't likely to hold an event such as a NCAA Final Four that *needs* an enclosed stadium, so they aren't asking for one.

I’m not as opposed to closed-roof stadia as I am to PhonyTurf… I absolutely ****ing DESPISE that fake ****ing sh!t… It is a ****ING CRIME that the new place in LA has that ****ing ugly ****ing dangerous ****ing garbage on it… IN ****ING LOS ANGELES!

 

[GreenCow]

Oh my god, I didn't average in the club seats!!!!!

I'm sure everyone here is more interested in hearing about the cost of regular seats.

How in the world is this so difficult for you?

Club seats ARE regular seats in Buffalo.

This is where your ignorance of the area (even though you somehow claim to live near here) is showing.

The Bills club seats are essentially the ENTIRE second level (minus the family area/rockpile). They used to be the normal second level seats before Ralph got greedy and decided to change the color of the seats from blue to red and slap a "club" name on them. They're not like club level seats in other stadiums that come with lots of fancy amenities.

So yeah, when you take away an entire level of the stadium - nearly 10,000 seats - and don't include them in the average - that's a huge difference.

 

[GreenCow]

The study that's been refuted because it came from the Bills.

Here's the Commodore Perry Projects, which I already referenced in my previous post: Commodore Perry Housing Auth · 386 Perry St, Buffalo, NY 14204

What do you see? What does boarded up windows everywhere tell you? This area is blighted, and sure there may be 1,000s of apartments in these projects, but if anyone believes there are 3,000 people living there because the Buffalo Bills say so, they are gullible.

This area is dying to be linked with Larkinville but it is such a massive site and a blight on the city, no one will develop it. So Larkinville stands on an island by itself cut off from the rest of downtown. I suppose at some point someone might finally tear down the Perry Projects and redevelop the area and displace the 3,000 ghosts would live there, but it's not happening anytime soon unless the money is there.

Anyone who cares to look at my link might roam around this neighborhood that's the proposed downtown site to get a better sense of what I'm talking about. Just know that on the west side of this massive neighborhood there is the Inner Harbor which is well developed + the casino, to the south there's a public park and the river, and to the east there's a place called Larkinville that is populated by restaurants, new breweries, art galleries and most of all the headquarters of a large bank.

I just put 2 and 2 together and figured out that you think the perry projects are big enough for the Bills stadium and parking. LOLOLOLOL. The perry projects are WAYYYYY too small for a stadium.

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

This is a photo of the Bills current stadium and parking, placed over the perry projects at the same magnification level. It swallows the Perry Projects x3.

The Perry Projects idea was to just BARELY squeeze a stadium into that area, and then scatter the parking lots all over the darn city.

Everyone knows this, which is why when discussing a downtown stadium they were saying they would have to break up the parking into several different areas, some of them being many blocks away. Which leads me back to my changing the culture of the team and lack of tailgating.

 

[jimnance]

The most appropriate location for Bills stadium is Flushing NY.
For obvious reasons

 

[DarrylS]

I remember hearing Kraft talk about Patriot Place before it was built. He was comparing it to one of the 7 wonders of the world. It turned out to be nothing more than a shopping mall.

And medical facilities, no matter what he did it on his own and the Mass. Taxpayer did not have to chip in except for the roads..

Do you have an exact quote of him referring it to the 7 wonders of the world?? I seem to have forgotten that.

 

[Bill Lee]

They used to be the normal second level seats before Ralph got greedy and decided to change the color of the seats from blue to red and slap a "club" name on them. They're not like club level seats in other stadiums that come with lots of fancy amenities.

An NFL owner got greedy? Say it isn't so!

 

[upstater1]

Here is some education for you that shows why your guess from an non comparable anecdotal example is irrelevant.

How Do Taxes Work in the NFL?

NFL players do make a ton of money. But not all of that money stays with the athletes. A portion disappears in the form of taxes.

www.sportscasting.com

Pro Athletes’ Taxes Based on Where Their League Resumes Play (1)

Empty seats, pumped-in crowd noise, virtual fans, and plexiglass-imprisoned announcers mark some of the biggest differences from traditional sports to pandemic play for viewers. For players, the new sports environment is just as different for their wallets.

news.bloombergtax.com

How is non comparable if I'm an out of state resident doing work in NY for a short period?

Isn't that what we're talking about?

New York looks at duty days and any money paid out of state by a state resident receives a tax credit in state.

But let's be real here: these players have advisors who tell them where to domicile. The practice is not to establish residence in income tax states. That means you pay tax on what you earn in state but you are not taxed on income earned out of state. And even if you establish residence in NY you still get the tax credit for taxes paid on income earned out of state.

 

[upstater1]

The discussion was about the gate, not how much the cheapest seats are. Why can’t you admit you were wrong? The average ticket price is the only number you can use to calculate ticket revenue. What your friend paid is not a better data piece.

Because you aggregated a bunch of imaginary money that the average fan pays. You wrote $200. I was talking about what the average fan actually pays.

But hey keep disagreeing with the experts on the matter. I see you're keeping your Dunning Kruger streak going across fora.

 

[upstater1]

The income tax is 20,000,000 a year. That will pay for the cost of the stadium over its lifetime.
Im sorry there are flaws in the study you chose to support your position. Many studies are slanted and done with an agenda.
If you consider the revenue generate and income created, spent taxed and infused into the community a pittance then the cost of the stadium would also be a pittance, since the economic benefits of having the team exceed that cost. Scale works both ways, and that’s a lazy argument.

What are you talking about? The article was about many studies and about all the experts on this issue. Youre wrong.

Also, learn how taxes work. There are brackets. It's not a flat 10%. Up to $1 million you're at 6.8%. The average NFL salary is $860k.

 

[upstater1]

Club seats ARE regular seats in Buffalo.

This is where your ignorance of the area (even though you somehow claim to live near here) is showing.

The Bills club seats are essentially the ENTIRE second level (minus the family area/rockpile). They used to be the normal second level seats before Ralph got greedy and decided to change the color of the seats from blue to red and slap a "club" name on them. They're not like club level seats in other stadiums that come with lots of fancy amenities.

So yeah, when you take away an entire level of the stadium - nearly 10,000 seats - and don't include them in the average - that's a huge difference.

Everyone knows what club seats are. Where do you think they are in New England? 2nd level. It's irrelevant to the discussion. Go back and read what I was responding to, someone who said it was going to be $200 per fan in taxable expenditure. So some fans will spend that much but your typical fan will not spend anywhere near that.

 

[upstater1]

I just put 2 and 2 together and figured out that you think the perry projects are big enough for the Bills stadium and parking. LOLOLOLOL. The perry projects are WAYYYYY too small for a stadium.

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

This is a photo of the Bills current stadium and parking, placed over the perry projects at the same magnification level. It swallows the Perry Projects x3.

The Perry Projects idea was to just BARELY squeeze a stadium into that area, and then scatter the parking lots all over the darn city.

Everyone knows this, which is why when discussing a downtown stadium they were saying they would have to break up the parking into several different areas, some of them being many blocks away. Which leads me back to my changing the culture of the team and lack of tailgating.

This is complete BS.

You're just changing the terms of the entire discussion because you know you're wrong.

Anyone can read my post from yesterday above where I say the space would not only be the Perry Street projects but the entire industrial space from the casino east and also the two city parks tp the south and west.

As a matter of fact I see lots of space to the south which I mentioned which isn't even covered by the current footprint.

 

[NormZauchin]

I guess people aren't reading the article in the thread starter.

If they would, they'd realize the downtown option is deader than a door knob.

It says:


So downtown costs a heck of a lot more.


And the governor says the state is letting the Bills decide which option they prefer.


And the Bills prefer the current location over downtown because it starts generating more cash for them sooner rather than later.


They want the extra cash flow 2-3 years earlier. Evicting people and removing existing structures takes a lot of time and various hard to predict things can happen such as unplanned ecological remediation. Orchard Park is shovel ready. Less cost, lest risk, move in sooner: all things the team wants.


Fans support the Orchard Park idea, as does the team.


Downtown is costlier and riskier.

There's always the chance that the fans end up hating the downtown location and attendance drops, then the county and the team would be screwed.

Seems the main concern is traffic and parking concerns.

Everyone involved seems to be saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Personally I don't think a NFL stadium makes a great "anchor tenant" for redevelopment, and given the extra time and money it'd take, it just isn't going to happen.

Yes, football stadiums do not make great anchor tenants. They are empty most of the time and the acres of parking surrounding a stadium create a real dead space. If the placement is on the edge of the downtown and the other side is industrial or service, it may work, as it does in Baltimore. But as a link between two areas with commercial or tourist activity, football stadiums are not a good idea.

 

[sb1]

I don’t think the NFL will be going to Canada anytime soon. Toronto would probably be the best city if there was one there but Rogers Center is not an NFL caliber stadium and doubtful the Bills would let it happen anyway.

 

[GaryfromTO]

I don’t think the NFL will be going to Canada anytime soon. Toronto would probably be the best city if there was one there but Rogers Center is not an NFL caliber stadium and doubtful the Bills would let it happen anyway.

Yeah, I can't see the NFL coming to Canada anytime soon, But they just announced a $250 Million upgrade to the Rogers Centre. Perhaps we might host a game or two like London does.

 

[GreenCow]

Everyone knows what club seats are. Where do you think they are in New England? 2nd level. It's irrelevant to the discussion. Go back and read what I was responding to, someone who said it was going to be $200 per fan in taxable expenditure. So some fans will spend that much but your typical fan will not spend anywhere near that.

The AVERAGE cost that a fan will pay is over $100 per seat.

Not $75. Not $85.

The AVERAGE overall cost per ticket is over $100 per seat. Thats what the average fan will spend.

 

[upstater1]

Yes, football stadiums do not make great anchor tenants. They are empty most of the time and the acres of parking surrounding a stadium create a real dead space. If the placement is on the edge of the downtown and the other side is industrial or service, it may work, as it does in Baltimore. But as a link between two areas with commercial or tourist activity, football stadiums are not a good idea.

The situation here though is that the money will be spent regardless.

 

[fourhour]

Damn, shaking my head here, and I've been following this thread since it started. Two western New York football fans arguing about a football stadium in New York, on a New England Patriots fan forum!

Merry Christmas my friends!

 

[upstater1]

Damn, shaking my head here, and I've been following this thread since it started. Two western New York football fans arguing about a football stadium in New York, on a New England Patriots fan forum!

Merry Christmas my friends!

I'm a Patriots fan and have been since 1976.

 

[Ring 6]

Pro Athletes’ Taxes Based on Where Their League Resumes Play (1)

Empty seats, pumped-in crowd noise, virtual fans, and plexiglass-imprisoned announcers mark some of the biggest differences from traditional sports to pandemic play for viewers. For players, the new sports environment is just as different for their wallets.

news.bloombergtax.com

How is non comparable if I'm an out of state resident doing work in NY for a short period?

Isn't that what we're talking about?

New York looks at duty days and any money paid out of state by a state resident receives a tax credit in state.

But let's be real here: these players have advisors who tell them where to domicile. The practice is not to establish residence in income tax states. That means you pay tax on what you earn in state but you are not taxed on income earned out of state. And even if you establish residence in NY you still get the tax credit for taxes paid on income earned out of state.

Are you an athlete on a visiting team? Did you read the article?
Did you read the article you posted? It says that they have to pay tax to the state for away games, but they advise players to make up for it (and other taxes) by living in a no income tax state.
That does not reduce the tax New York State collects on games in Buffalo.
I think at this point you are just wasting my time to avoid admitting you know you were wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

What are you talking about? The article was about many studies and about all the experts on this issue. Youre wrong.

Also, learn how taxes work. There are brackets. It's not a flat 10%. Up to $1 million you're at 6.8%. The average NFL salary is $860k.

It’s not an article about studies it’s an article interviewing people who say they do studies. There is no data about how the study was done, what biases were included and what factors of the team abandoning the community they take into account.

And the majority of the income is in the top bracket, and we haven’t even included the income of the owners, the coaches, staff, employees, etc.
200 mill is a very low estimate.