OT: New York Approves Location of New Bills Stadium

[RobertWeathers]

Looks like it is turning into a mecca for medical facilities..

I noticed the same thing.

 

[XLIX]

I don't know anything about the local geography, but building it on the same plot makes sense because the roads are already in place. The years of construction will be messy but then, like the Patriots and Giants/Jets, the footprint of the old stadium becomes parking lot.

 

[XLIX]

The only viable argument for this sort of thing is the state income tax, but according to the article above the cost of the stadium will dwarf the income received from state taxes. So, the question is, how much money do you want to lose to enrich a guy who is worth $7billion+?

I didn't see the above article, but it sure seems to me that income taxes alone will pay for a huge chunk of the cost of the stadium.

NY State's top tier income tax is 10.9%. Most athlete income will be in the 9.65% to 10.3% bracket so let's just use a nice round 10% tax. If you assume the Bills payroll is $200 million (which is a conservative estimate) and increases $10 million per year (a conservative estimate) for 30 years (presumed life of the stadium) then that's over $1 billion in income taxes from the Bills players alone.

Don't forget they tax visiting players too for games played in NY State. Plus they will obviously be taxing everyone's income, not just the players.

 

[Ring 6]

Tax revenue is a net nothing. Plenty of studies have proven this. I mean, the revenue comes from local sources any way you cut it.

The only viable argument for this sort of thing is the state income tax, but according to the article above the cost of the stadium will dwarf the income received from state taxes. So, the question is, how much money do you want to lose to enrich a guy who is worth $7billion+?

BTW--your estimate of costs for a Bills game is way over. It's about $75 a game for seasons in the 2nd tier. Parking is on peoples lawns on $10 a pop shared by 4 people in a car. Food is what you bring to the game. Not much of this other than the $75 game ticket is going to generate local tax. The only extra comes from the 15% of the season ticket base that lives in Ontario. You generate income that way.

If tax revenue is net zero, it paid for itself. It’s much more than net zero, you are dismissing myriad sources of tax revenue by having a multi million dollar operation with a multi million dollar payroll in the community.

Yeah, no one buys concessions at a bills game and they don’t sell hats, jerseys, etc. I also seriously doubt the Bills gave no parking lots and won’t include them in the new stadium. Gillette charges $40 a car.

But all of that is dwarfed by the benefits to local businesses of having a football team in the community.

You aren’t enriching the owner, unless you can’t critically think. You are enriching your community because if you don’t do it, the owner will take the team elsewhere to a community that understands its value.

 

[Ring 6]

I didn't see the above article, but it sure seems to me that income taxes alone will pay for a huge chunk of the cost of the stadium.

NY State's top tier income tax is 10.9%. Most athlete income will be in the 9.65% to 10.3% bracket so let's just use a nice round 10% tax. If you assume the Bills payroll is $200 million (which is a conservative estimate) and increases $10 million per year (a conservative estimate) for 30 years (presumed life of the stadium) then that's over $1 billion in income taxes from the Bills players alone.

Don't forget they tax visiting players too for games played in NY State. Plus they will obviously be taxing everyone's income, not just the players.

Taxing the visiting players would increase that by 50%.

 

[Bill Lee]

I am also mystified why they're not considering a downtown stadium since that area of the city is really beginning to buzz. This has just been built adjacent to the land targeted for a downtown stadium: Buffalo Riverworks

I've gone down there plenty and there are a ton of people milling around. A stadium next door would finally connect this part of town to the Inner Harbor where the Sabres play at First Bank Arena. It's a missed opportunity.

There are also a lot more highways and roads to access this part of downtown (3 highways & a 6 lane road -- Broadway) than there are for Orchard Park (2 highways).

I believe this has to do with the expense of building downtown, but it also speaks to Pegula's unwillingness to pony up some money, and his safe bet that he can continue to attract tablebreakers rather than worrying about who will show up downtown.

The article linked at the start of the thread goes into the rationale. Seems riverside it would cost $350M more and take 2-3 years more to build. Seems the team is happy with the Orchard Park situation. Seems changing the location interjects a risk of the unknown.

 

[Koma]

Some opportunities for the stadium designers:

• Incorporate the look of a large broken folding table into the stadium architecture, kind of like how the Buccaneers have a pirate ship. Maybe it could be base/frame of one of the jumbotrons: \ _ _ /
• Bills fans love to throw "marital aids" onto the field, so build a giant one, reminiscent of the lighthouse at Gillette, at one end of the stadium. If the budget allows for it, have it buzz on defensive 3rd downs to fire up the crowd.
• On a concourse, have an ornate door labeled "Super Bowl Trophies." When fans pull on the door 4 times in rapid succession, it opens to reveal a cinder block wall.

 

[Bill Lee]

• Bills fans love to throw "marital aids" onto the field, so build a giant one, reminiscent of the lighthouse at Gillette, at one end of the stadium. If the budget allows for it, have it buzz on defensive 3rd downs to fire up the crowd.

And if the Billdos score a TD, money shot!

Maybe they can have it go limp any time the Pagulas or Goodell are shown on TV/jumbotron.

 

[GreenCow]

I am also mystified why they're not considering a downtown stadium since that area of the city is really beginning to buzz. This has just been built adjacent to the land targeted for a downtown stadium: Buffalo Riverworks

I've gone down there plenty and there are a ton of people milling around. A stadium next door would finally connect this part of town to the Inner Harbor where the Sabres play at First Bank Arena. It's a missed opportunity.

There are also a lot more highways and roads to access this part of downtown (3 highways & a 6 lane road -- Broadway) than there are for Orchard Park (2 highways).

I believe this has to do with the expense of building downtown, but it also speaks to Pegula's unwillingness to pony up some money, and his safe bet that he can continue to attract tablebreakers rather than worrying about who will show up downtown.

You're right that downtown Buffalo is starting to buzz again, but you ignored the part where the entire culture of the Bills fanbase changes if the stadium is moved downtown.

80k people tailgate around the stadium each Sunday in Orchard Park.

This couldn't happen downtown.

PS, Ashley i'm very sorry for typing my opinion. I'll try to keep that to a minimum. I know me talking is a no-no.

 

[GreenCow]

BTW--your estimate of costs for a Bills game is way over. It's about $75 a game for seasons in the 2nd tier. Parking is on peoples lawns on $10 a pop shared by 4 people in a car. Food is what you bring to the game. Not much of this other than the $75 game ticket is going to generate local tax. The only extra comes from the 15% of the season ticket base that lives in Ontario. You generate income that way.

Lots of wrong information here. Bills average ticket is $101 per seat (yeah you can get nosebleeds for $75, but the average price is what you want to use in calculations - not nosebleed pricing). As for parking, yes there is parking on people's lawns but the VAST majority of parking is done at the stadium lot with nearly 15,000 parking spots.

Food/Drink isn't allowed in the stadium (unless its a single serve sandwhich/soda and hasnt for a long time). The line for concessions is always stupid long as well.

I have literally no idea where you got this idea that Bills fans pay $75 per ticket, all park on peoples lawns, and carry coolers full of hot dogs and beer into the stadium. Did you last go to a stadium in the 1950's or something???

PS, again, I apologize for posting my opinion.

 

[oldrover]

PS, Ashley i'm very sorry for typing my opinion. I'll try to keep that to a minimum. I know me talking is a no-no.

Oh brother...

 

[borg]

I didn't see the above article, but it sure seems to me that income taxes alone will pay for a huge chunk of the cost of the stadium.

NY State's top tier income tax is 10.9%. Most athlete income will be in the 9.65% to 10.3% bracket so let's just use a nice round 10% tax. If you assume the Bills payroll is $200 million (which is a conservative estimate) and increases $10 million per year (a conservative estimate) for 30 years (presumed life of the stadium) then that's over $1 billion in income taxes from the Bills players alone.

Don't forget they tax visiting players too for games played in NY State. Plus they will obviously be taxing everyone's income, not just the players.

Factor in the surplus excise taxes greedy NY state collects on Bills Mafia game day staples:

Alcohol
Cigs
Medicinal Weed
Artery Clogging Meats Stuffed in Casings
Collapsible Tables
Pleasure projectiles

And let's not ignore the robust (high margin) business at local emergency rooms post game.

 

[Dr Pain]

Is it gonna be a dome? If so kick the Bills out of the division.

I hope it is a dome. Look at the wonders it has done for the Vikings

 

[upstater1]

I didn't see the above article, but it sure seems to me that income taxes alone will pay for a huge chunk of the cost of the stadium.

NY State's top tier income tax is 10.9%. Most athlete income will be in the 9.65% to 10.3% bracket so let's just use a nice round 10% tax. If you assume the Bills payroll is $200 million (which is a conservative estimate) and increases $10 million per year (a conservative estimate) for 30 years (presumed life of the stadium) then that's over $1 billion in income taxes from the Bills players alone.

Don't forget they tax visiting players too for games played in NY State. Plus they will obviously be taxing everyone's income, not just the players.

If visiting players get taxed too then that means the Bills do not get taxed for out of state games, doesn't it? Maybe not. Living in NY though I bet they don't get taxed because I've dealt with this situation myself when work was done out of state. As long as your work in NY isn't repeated over the year, you're fine.

Regardless it's 10% x $200b. You have to account for the interest paid on that debt which reduces the income tax return and also of course the upkeep on the stadium. If it's a $1.5b job (conservatively) and the state pays most of it, I don't think you make your money back when you account for interest and upkeep. Pegula must use the NFL loans to pay for his fair share.

 

[upstater1]

Lots of wrong information here. Bills average ticket is $101 per seat (yeah you can get nosebleeds for $75, but the average price is what you want to use in calculations - not nosebleed pricing). As for parking, yes there is parking on people's lawns but the VAST majority of parking is done at the stadium lot with nearly 15,000 parking spots.

Food/Drink isn't allowed in the stadium (unless its a single serve sandwhich/soda and hasnt for a long time). The line for concessions is always stupid long as well.

I have literally no idea where you got this idea that Bills fans pay $75 per ticket, all park on peoples lawns, and carry coolers full of hot dogs and beer into the stadium. Did you last go to a stadium in the 1950's or something???

PS, again, I apologize for posting my opinion.

Season tickets, ever heard of them?

Read and weep: https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills/bills-finalize-season-ticket-pricing-for-2021

"The average regular, non-club seat will cost $82.14 per-game, an increase of $7.68."

My friends told me last year what they paid, and it was $75. That's for the average seat. They went up to $82 this year apparently.

As for food / drink you just explained why everyone has tailgates outside the stadium because the prices are insane inside and the lines are long.

When did you last go to the stadium if you don't even know what a Bills tailgate is like and you're completely unaware of the ticket prices?

For heaven's sake you call yourself a Bills fan?

 

[upstater1]

You're right that downtown Buffalo is starting to buzz again, but you ignored the part where the entire culture of the Bills fanbase changes if the stadium is moved downtown.

80k people tailgate around the stadium each Sunday in Orchard Park.

This couldn't happen downtown.

PS, Ashley i'm very sorry for typing my opinion. I'll try to keep that to a minimum. I know me talking is a no-no.

The area proposed for the downtown stadium is bigger than the current footprint in Orchard Park. We're talking about many acres of empty industrial park and the abandoned Perry St Projects. The only question about downtown has ever been road access, not space. Because there's more space in the area behind the Seneca Casino all the way down to the river by the park.

 

[upstater1]

Taxing the visiting players would increase that by 50%.

If they do tax the visitors how do they treat Bills income from away games? When we had dual domiciles and earned in both Michigan and NY state, NY didn't tax our Michigan revenue because we fell under the threshold (it depends on how many days you worked in Michigan).

In other words, if they tax visiting players, then they won't tax the Bills 8x a year for away games

 

[upstater1]

If tax revenue is net zero, it paid for itself. It’s much more than net zero, you are dismissing myriad sources of tax revenue by having a multi million dollar operation with a multi million dollar payroll in the community.

Yeah, no one buys concessions at a bills game and they don’t sell hats, jerseys, etc. I also seriously doubt the Bills gave no parking lots and won’t include them in the new stadium. Gillette charges $40 a car.

But all of that is dwarfed by the benefits to local businesses of having a football team in the community.

You aren’t enriching the owner, unless you can’t critically think. You are enriching your community because if you don’t do it, the owner will take the team elsewhere to a community that understands its value.

How many studies do you want me to link to that show there is no local tax gain?

Here's an article quoting people who study these things: Research shows sports stadiums generate little new economic acivity.

 

[upstater1]

I don't know anything about the local geography, but building it on the same plot makes sense because the roads are already in place. The years of construction will be messy but then, like the Patriots and Giants/Jets, the footprint of the old stadium becomes parking lot.

The roads are already in place for downtown, as I wrote earlier. I could see a problem only with Monday night games, but Buffalo's business district is relatively empty on Sundays. There are 3 highways (190, 33, 5) leading to the downtown plot and a few major roads (Broadway, etc.)

 

[Ivan]

It'll be interesting to see what kind of ROI the City of Worcester and MA realizes from it's respective contributions to the construction of Polar Park. Of the total cost of $160m, the city kicked in $88m, Fenway Sports $61m and the State of MA $11m.

I don’t know anything about that project but I could see a return on investment of over 100 million if it’s a good venue that attracts a ton of customers in coming years. It’s much harder to see that if you are talking about a billion $$$$.