Wickersham book discussion

[Pats1971]

I think you are correct that those things would have happened if Brady didn't come. Take those 30 turnovers away and add Rivers and they become a playoff team without adding Gronk, AB and Fournette. Brady was the difference, but they still had a good defense and killer WRs. You don't throw for 5100 yards without talent. Brady 100% brought in a winning atmosphere. I think you are glossing over the fact that they had very good talent because you want it all credit to be given to Brady. Brady is the difference AND they had talent.

They were 27th in defense the year before Brady. They also lead the league in penalties. 7-9 record, and had not won a playoff game in 18 years. They were picked as underdogs in 3 out of 4 playoff games. Their oline was 17th in 2019. There is no all credit, its called most credit. I mean it wasnt arians who suddenly just got it. I mean the pats spent 150 mil in the offseason on talent, how is that working out?

 

[venecol]

I don’t think think they were on an upswing. Either way Winston was gone and unless they traded up in the 2020 draft they were out of range for any of the top QB's. Maybe they make a run at Phillip Rivers a little harder or maybe they were the ones who picked Cam off the scrap heap but either way they likely miss the playoffs and the Arians and the GM are probably canned and the whole thing gets blown up. They cycled through head coaches every 2-4 years since Gruden left all while continually whiffing on QB's. That pattern would have kept going had Brady not shown up.


Lol yes I am a "fanboy" because I don't think Tampa was some juggernaut waiting on the final piece. No one but Brady deserves credit for Tampa's super bowl win last year. You can argue Arians and the GM deserve credit for knowing enough to get out of the way and let Brady run the show if you want but it is what it is. Brady singlehandedly lured in two big contributors down the stretch in Gronk and AB and won three road playoff games, two of them with future first ballot hall of famers.

Yea, I lurked the Bucs terrible fan forum last season and their own fans weren't convinced Brady would be enough. Many even questioned bringing in a 42+ yo instead of going after a QBOF regardless of his Goatness. Many more were pissed with bringing in Gronk (too old, too expensive, washed up). Even more were against bringing in AB. Nobody was impressed with Fournette.

There were many games won that their fans said would've never been won before, not because of Winston, but because of the team suckitude history. Their motto is ItsaBucsLife, lol. That fan base had zero expectations of having a winning season, never mind about making playoffs and winning the SB.

Yet, hindsight is 20-20 and the Patriots fans believe it was all but a done deal the Bucs (most losing record in all sports?) were a no brainer to win it all. Lmao

 

[Fuzz]

The notion by many on this forum (not you) that any good QB would've won a SB with that Bucs team is odd.

I wonder how many good QBs switched teams after playing for one team and went on to win a SB their first year? @Ice_Ice_Brady ?

Nick Foles did it just 3 years ago.

 

[Pats1971]

Yea, I lurked the Bucs terrible fan forum last season and their own fans weren't convinced Brady would be enough. Many even questioned bringing in a 42+ yo instead of going after a QBOF regardless of his Goatness. Many more were pissed with bringing in Gronk (too old, too expensive, washed up). Even more were against bringing in AB. Nobody was impressed with Fournette.

There were many games won that their fans said would've never been won before, not because of Winston, but because of the team suckitude history. Their motto is ItsaBucsLife, lol. That fan base had zero expectations of having a winning season, never mind about making playoffs and winning the SB.

Yet, hindsight is 20-20 and the Patriots fans believe it was all but a done deal the Bucs (most losing record in all sports?) were a no brainer to win it all. Lmao

Yeah its comical, a team who had not even won a playoff game in 18 years, was the super team Brady jumped on for the ride as they carried him to a superbowl. lol. Its hilarious. I mean Pats fans were sure saying how great Brady would do over there since about half of them thought he was done. He cannot play in arians offense, he will get killed behind that line, defense gives up too many points and Brady cannot carry a team anymore....etc etc Nobody thought they would win the superbowl all the way up to the superbowl.

 

[Pats1971]

Nick Foles did it just 3 years ago.

Nick foles was the backup for 3 quarters of the season. Eagles were winning that year and the starter was leading in MVP and got hurt and he took over. Not quite the same.

 

[venecol]

Nick Foles did it just 3 years ago.

Nick Foles wasn't a good QB nor was he a starter. He got hot for 4 games. Not the same thing at all. That was not his team.

 

[Fuzz]

Nick Foles wasn't a good QB nor was he a starter. He got hot for 4 games. Not the same thing at all. That was not his team.

You asked a question, I answered it. The question wasnt whether he was a starter or not. He deserves a lot of credit for their win that year. He played the entire playoffs. You cant take that away from him, just like you cant take away all BB did during the Dynasty.

 

[venecol]

The only QB under similar conditions that I can think of is Stafford if Rams win it all this year. However, the Rams have been a contender for the last 5 years unlike the Bucs.

Nevertheless, if Stafford can win a SB with them, it would lend some credibility the Bucs could've won last year with any good QB.

 

[203Pat]

I think you are correct that those things would have happened if Brady didn't come. Take those 30 turnovers away and add Rivers and they become a playoff team without adding Gronk, AB and Fournette. Brady was the difference, but they still had a good defense and killer WRs. You don't throw for 5100 yards without talent. Brady 100% brought in a winning atmosphere. I think you are glossing over the fact that they had very good talent because you want it all credit to be given to Brady. Brady is the difference AND they had talent.

The year Jamies had 30 turnovers Rivers had 28 so he may not have been a major upgrade. When you turn the ball over and much as Winston did you're going to be behind quite a bit so you will need to throw the ball quite a bit. People seem to think that if you just remove half of the turnovers Winston had they would have been in the playoffs but if you watched him with the Bucs you would see the way he played. Some of the good plays/TDs he made could have easily been turnovers as well. Hell we saw it on Sunday. He chucked that ball up as he was inches off the ground and it ended up as a TD. That is Jameis in a nutshell. There is talent there but you cant really eliminate the bad without losing the good.

Also the Bucs defense improved in large part to Brady and a competent offense. They no longer were constantly defending in a short field after a turnover and they were on the field for less time since the offense was capable of sustaining long TD drives.

 

[203Pat]

You asked a question, I answered it. The question wasnt whether he was a starter or not. He deserves a lot of credit for their win that year. He played the entire playoffs. You cant take that away from him, just like you cant take away all BB did during the Dynasty.

Bill had nothing to do with this current discussion. The current discussion is "how much of an impact on the super bowl win did Brady have in Tampa?"

 

[Pats1971]

The only QB under similar conditions that I can think of is Stafford if Rams win it all this year. However, the Rams have been a contender for the last 5 years unlike the Bucs.

Nevertheless, if Stafford can win a SB with them, it would lend some credibility the Bucs could've won last year with any good QB.

Anyone that thinks the Bucs win the superbowl with any QB should not be discussing football on a message board. Also The Rams have been to superbowls and deep playoff runs without Stafford. Tampa had not won a playoff game in 18 years...just s slight difference.

 

[Fuzz]

Bill had nothing to do with this current discussion. The current discussion is "how much of an impact on the super bowl win did Brady have in Tampa?"

Its the topic of the week, so its a part of every discussion, including most of this thread. As for the current discussion, my answer is: he deserves a LOT of the credit, more than any other person in that organization. That said, he doesnt deserve all of it.

 

[203Pat]

Its the topic of the week, so its a part of every discussion, including most of this thread. As for the current discussion, my answer is: he deserves a LOT of the credit, more than any other person in that organization. That said, he doesnt deserve all of it.

Maybe not all but the overwhelming majority.

 

[Pats1971]

Its the topic of the week, so its a part of every discussion, including most of this thread. As for the current discussion, my answer is: he deserves a LOT of the credit, more than any other person in that organization. That said, he doesnt deserve all of it.

Is there anything that woudl deserve all the credit for something? Not sure what you are even try to make a point of. I go by what the players and the coaches on the team say. They seem to know more than guy on message board to what degree Brady was a huge reason they won.
Its like if someone was trying to diminish Rembrant by saying, well the paint had a part in it too!!!

 

[venecol]

You asked a question, I answered it. The question wasnt whether he was a starter or not. He deserves a lot of credit for their win that year. He played the entire playoffs. You cant take that away from him, just like you cant take away all BB did during the Dynasty.

Yea not even close to being the same since he rode the bench for most of the year and had little to do with the early wins that clinched them the Division. He also wasn't a starter with KC the previous year and had bounced around the league.

Bill had more to do with that SB win than Foles.

 

[203Pat]

Yea not even close to being the same since he rode the bench for most of the year and had little to do with the early wins that clinched them the Division. He also wasn't a starter with KC the previous year and had bounced around the league.

Bill had more to do with that SB win than Foles.

And apparently Patrica as well.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He did draft 4 hall of famers (Montana, Lott, Haley, and Rice) as well as some very good players in Dwight Clark, Roger Craig, Jon Taylor, Tom Rathman, Steve Wallace, Don Griffin, Bill Romanoski, and Michael Carter. He also set the franchise up for the future by having the foresight to trade for another hall of famer, Steve Young. I wouldn't call that awful.

My bad. I meant the stint as GM in 1999-2000

Agree 100% with his work in the 80s.

 

[Fuzz]

Maybe not all but the overwhelming majority.

See, thats where I disagree. Its a team game. Nobody deserves the overwhelming majority of the credit for anything. He deserves more than everyone else, yes. But I think its more like 20% than 90%.

 

[203Pat]

Sorry. I meant the stint as GM in 1999-2000

Agree 100% with his work in the 80s.

Haha I figured there was something missing.

 

[SVN]

Yeah its comical, a team who had not even won a playoff game in 18 years, was the super team Brady jumped on for the ride as they carried him to a superbowl. lol. Its hilarious. I mean Pats fans were sure saying how great Brady would do over there since about half of them thought he was done. He cannot play in arians offense, he will get killed behind that line, defense gives up too many points and Brady cannot carry a team anymore....etc etc Nobody thought they would win the superbowl all the way up to the superbowl.

To be very honest, not very many did after 12 games last yr that bucs were wining it all. The same media members which want to thumb the nose at pats for letting brady go were the ones making out memes when brady forgot 4th down without BB on his side. The media will flow the way of the story. Its amazing they have no to take accountability at all.