OT: Lamar Jackson on whether defenses have figured him out: "I doubt it, dude. I doubt it. I strongly doubt it. I’m gonna play ball."

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Why does he suck so bad in the playoffs?

He's played like 3 playoff games. He definitely hasn't played his best but his team has **** the bed on multiple occasions. Top targets disappear. Coaching. Much tougher opponents. He absolutely has to play better but anyone objective knows his team - coaching included, **** the bed.

He is so elusive though. He does not take the same hits as Vick and RG3. That being said, he needs to play more like Russell Wilson IMO. Play from the pocket but when the run is there, take it and then slide or get out of bounds.

I get what you're saying but its actually the opposite. Lamar is much more comfortable in the pocket than Wilson. You could put the best OL in the league in front of Wilson and he's still bailing. He's one of the reasons why people started saying sacks are a "QB stat"

Exactly. Another 4-5 years max.

I'll take a pocket QB and his draft peer Josh Allen any day of the week.

Josh Allen is pocket QB lol? That term or phrase has lost all meaning. It doesn't help that people really don't know what they're talking about.

Tom Brady is a pocket passer. Josh Allen is not a pocket QB or w/e you want to call it lol.

Most of these guys are propped up by scheme, RPO/Option - running game & the ability to move. From Jimmy G to Goff. From Baker to Allen. None are pure pocket passers if we're being serious. Neither is Mahomes. He uses his legs to create outside the pocket as much or more than he's inside the pocket.

Brady is the last of a dying breed if we want to be honest & correct about what we're actually saying. The game is just different to the point that you don't have strict, true pocket passers anymore.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Exactly. Another 4-5 years max.

I'll take a pocket QB and his draft peer Josh Allen any day of the week.

Allen tucks and runs quite a bit too, not close to Jackson but way more than average.

Rushes+Sacks / Dropbacks

Brady - 10%
Mahomes - 12%
Allen - 23%
Jackson - 37%

Neither Allen or Jackson is a pocket QB...I'm not very bullish on either one, though I like Allen's long-term prospects better. I just think Allen will be one of those $45M franchise guys who isn't good enough to carry a team and the Bills win 8-11 games most seasons. Roethlisberger has been that guy since that elite defense left in 2010, and I view Allen as Roethlisberger lite.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I see two subjects that are alike: both might be finished very soon, and much sooner than everyone thought.

Maybe, we'll see. There's not much to support that other than him playing more games and the lifespan in that league. The injuries people said would happen, just haven't been there. He's taken a few shots but not many and not nearly as much as people said he would.

Again we'll see but the truth is most everyone here has been 100% wrong concerning Jackson. Like hilariously wrong.

I just think he's a fun player. It's not that deep. Would like to see him win but it's not that serious for me. It's just football.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Allen tucks and runs quite a bit too, not close to Jackson but way more than average.

Rushes+Sacks / Dropbacks

Brady - 10%
Mahomes - 12%
Allen - 23%
Jackson - 37%

Neither Allen or Jackson is a pocket QB...I'm not very bullish on either one, though I like Allen's long-term prospects better. I just think Allen will be one of those $45M franchise guys who isn't good enough to carry a team and the Bills win 8-11 games most seasons. Roethlisberger has been that guy since that elite defense left in 2010, and I view Allen as Roethlisberger lite.

I've been telling this board there aren't any "pocket passers" left besides Brady but they don't want to listen.

I'll admit it's the Irish and stubbornness but let's speak and talk about things correctly. Josh Allen ain't a pocket passer and there aren't any waiting in the wings ready to step up ... Besides Mac, Ice.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Maybe, we'll see. There's not much to support that other than him playing more games and the lifespan in that league. The injuries people said would happen, just haven't been there. He's taken a few shots but not many and not nearly as much as people said he would.

Again we'll see but the truth is most everyone here has been 100% wrong concerning Jackson. Like hilariously wrong.

I just think he's a fun player. It's not that deep. Would like to see him win but it's not that serious for me. It's just football.

You'll get the W regardless because he has far outperformed the #32 pick in the draft and arguably would have already met expectations if he were drafted first overall. So, it was a good call on draft pick itself. Where he's going now, and whether the mega contract was a good deal for the team, yes, quite a different issue.

I don't know if everyone has been 100% wrong...well, at least those who thought he playing at an unsustainable level in 2019 and would come crashing back down to earth, at a much more dramatic rate of regression than a guy like Mahomes. Maybe the draft people were wrong, sure...I'm not much of a draft guy but just assumed he was a bad pick due to very broad brush assumptions, so I was wrong there.

 

[203Pat]

I like Lamar. He seems like a fun guy to be around and an electrifying player on the field. I am not sure if he can develop into a real consistent passing threat but if they keep building around his strong suits I think Baltimore will continue to be a good team. That being said I think the window on his career may be short. He doesn't take many big hits but when you run as much as Lamar does all it takes is one.

 

[amfootball]

I've been telling this board there aren't any "pocket passers" left besides Brady but they don't want to listen.

I'll admit it's the Irish and stubbornness but let's speak and talk about things correctly. Josh Allen ain't a pocket passer and there aren't any waiting in the wings ready to step up ... Besides Mac, Ice.

I agree. Pocket passers are pretty much done in today's league. I mean you will still have them sort of but none like Brady or Manning for that matter.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He's played like 3 playoff games. He definitely hasn't played his best but his team has **** the bed on multiple occasions. Top targets disappear. Coaching. Much tougher opponents. He absolutely has to play better but anyone objective knows his team - coaching included, **** the bed.

I get what you're saying but its actually the opposite. Lamar is much more comfortable in the pocket than Wilson. You could put the best OL in the league in front of Wilson and he's still bailing. He's one of the reasons why people started saying sacks are a "QB stat"

Josh Allen is pocket QB lol? That term or phrase has lost all meaning. It doesn't help that people really don't know what they're talking about.

Tom Brady is a pocket passer. Josh Allen is not a pocket QB or w/e you want to call it lol.

Most of these guys are propped up by scheme, RPO/Option - running game & the ability to move. From Jimmy G to Goff. From Baker to Allen. None are pure pocket passers if we're being serious. Neither is Mahomes. He uses his legs to create outside the pocket as much or more than he's inside the pocket.

Brady is the last of a dying breed if we want to be honest & correct about what we're actually saying. The game is just different to the point that you don't have strict, true pocket passers anymore.

When I say pocket QB, it's a QB that can go through multiple reads and deliver strikes quickly > 2.5 sec

Allen last year had a completion % inside a clean pocket at 85.8% in 2.5 sec.

LJ was 76.5% which is not awful but he wasn't at Allen's level.

Allen certainly runs but that is not his bread and butter.

Can LJ evolve? Time will tell. His career depends on it.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

You'll get the W regardless because he has far outperformed the #32 pick in the draft and arguably would have already met expectations if he were drafted first overall. So, it was a good call on draft pick itself. Where he's going now, and whether the mega contract was a good deal for the team, yes, quite a different issue.

I don't know if everyone has been 100% wrong...well, at least those who thought he playing at an unsustainable level in 2019 and would come crashing back down to earth, at a much more dramatic rate of regression than a guy like Mahomes. Maybe the draft people were wrong, sure...I'm not much of a draft guy but just assumed he was a bad pick due to very broad brush assumptions, so I was wrong there.

To be fair (to be fair) he's still only played like 2 real seasons and one was Covid. 26/9, stats he put up with what he was working with wasn't a "crash to earth" imo. They had protection issues, interior line wasn't nearly as good or aggressive, awful targets and the offense didn't quite evolve the way you'd like. Plus everyone knew he'd regress, he had one of the best seasons ever for a QB.

Yea most here thought he would be terrible to say the least, big bust lol. Which is fine, it's not that serious I'm just having fun.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree. Pocket passers are pretty much done in today's league. I mean you will still have them sort of but none like Brady or Manning for that matter.

Ok... for purposes of the discussion, which likely starting QBs among the following are not pocket passers at this stage of their careers, and why do you classify them as something else*?


Tua
Roethlisberger
Mayfield
Burrows
Wentz
Lawrence
Carr
Herbert
Lock (and Bridgewater, since the race hasn't been called)
Fitzpatrick
Cousins
Goff
Winston
Darnold
Ryan
Stafford
JAG




*Note that I'm not trying to argue that every listed QB is a pocket passer, but am trying to find some sort of agreement on the basic notion.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

When I say pocket QB, it's a QB that can go through multiple reads and deliver strikes quickly > 2.5 sec

Allen last year had a completion % inside a clean pocket at 85.8% in 2.5 sec.

LJ was 76.5% which is not awful but he wasn't at Allen's level.

Allen certainly runs but that is not his bread and butter.

Can LJ evolve? Time will tell. His career depends on it.

I mean he was literally the best QB from inside the pocket the year before Bob. No one was as good or efficient. He came back and put up good #'s when the entire team regressed as well.

He's not for everyone and really can't shake the narratives. That don't help.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I've been telling this board there aren't any "pocket passers" left besides Brady but they don't want to listen.

I'll admit it's the Irish and stubbornness but let's speak and talk about things correctly. Josh Allen ain't a pocket passer and there aren't any waiting in the wings ready to step up ... Besides Mac, Ice.

I mean, Mahomes seems to be getting worse in the pocket based on the eye test, but his overall rate of at least throwing the ball rather than getting tackled with it (see above) is pretty solid. The drifting, scrambling stuff, though, sure, it's hard to really say he's a classic pocket passer, and he strains the offensive line. We'll see if the weaving and dodging is sustainable; it was for Roger Staubach.

Mac, yes...I loved what I saw from him in the pocket. He has that sixth sense, at least for now.

Herbert, who just put together that monster rookie season, isn't yet on the pure pocket level, but I think he will be soon enough.

The last five NFC Champ QBs are Brady, Garoppolo, Goff, Foles, and Ryan...five pocket QBs AFC is Mahomes and Brady, numerous times. Put it all together and you have a heck of a lot of pocket QBs getting through the postseason; I know this is cherry-picked and isn't all cause-and-effect and it's simplifying things, but just saying, at the beginning of the playoffs no one is betting on most of these guys against Rodgers, Wilson, Jackson, etc. I could understand the argument that Mahomes disproves this, but again, I think Mahomes is more of a scrambling QB by the eye test than by actual numbers.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I mean, Mahomes seems to be getting worse in the pocket based on the eye test, but his overall rate of at least throwing the ball rather than getting tackled with it (see above) is pretty solid. The drifting, scrambling stuff, though, sure, it's hard to really say he's a classic pocket passer, and he strains the offensive line. We'll see if the weaving and dodging is sustainable; it was for Roger Staubach.

Mac, yes...I loved what I saw from him in the pocket. He has that sixth sense, at least for now.

Herbert, who just put together that monster rookie season, isn't yet on the pure pocket level, but I think he will be soon enough.

The last five NFC Champ QBs are Brady, Garoppolo, Goff, Foles, and Ryan...five pocket QBs AFC is Mahomes and Brady, numerous times. Put it all together and you have a heck of a lot of pocket QBs getting through the postseason; I know this is cherry-picked and isn't all cause-and-effect and it's simplifying things, but just saying, at the beginning of the playoffs no one is betting on most of these guys against Rodgers, Wilson, Jackson, etc. I could understand the argument that Mahomes disproves this, but again, I think Mahomes is more of a scrambling QB by the eye test than by actual numbers.

Jimmy, Goff, Baker etc all need a running game in the worst way and their hand held with scheme. I don't consider those types pocket passers. Maybe it's just me? None can sit there and beat you from the pocket without bells & whistles from scheme, moving outside the pocket, running game.

Ryan, Brady, Stafford are what I'd consider pocket passers.

*edit* like if Jimmy were a true pocket passer he probably have a ring, no? That game really showed the difference between someone who could make all the passes (albeit from everywhere) and someone who couldn't (Jimmy) Idk I just think guys that really need their hand held in certain aspects are really true pocket passers. I mean everyone needs help but without scheme/misdirection these guys can't survive all day in the pocket.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Was Steve Young a pocket passer?

Was Randall Cunningham?

Was John Elway?

Rushing attempts are irrelevant..

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

A lot of this is bc of the lower levels. Coaches started putting the best athletes at QB and figuring it out later instead of a "typical" QB. The other reason are the speed on D. Yea QB's are protected more than ever but there's also a tremendous amount of speed on the field at all times. Most guys can't maneuver and navigate the pocket and would get swamped trying to drop back 40 times a game. Seriously most of these guys would get killed trying to play that way today.

The QB position is like a barter system. Give & take. You take or accept pressure for bigger gains, take a sack or check down. Again its a give & take. That's the reason Brady was great. Unbelievable consistency but he's playing the position in every sense of the word while others are playing the position.

Like I remember Wilson had the best OL of his career but came out with the highest sack %. Most likely bc he trusted his OL a little more but also it's just bc he is who he is. He accepts pressure for a bigger gain.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Was Steve Young a pocket passer?

No

Was Randall Cunningham?

No

Was John Elway?

Elway is Jeff George without Terrell Davis.

Rushing attempts are irrelevant..

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I'm not even throwing my jab. Leading with my left hook & cross like I'm Roy Jones in his prime. Who wants some?

 

[RobertWeathers]

No

No

Elway is Jeff George without Terrell Davis.

I disagree on all of your responses.

Your argument of pocket passer/non-pocket passer is too generic.

Need to account for the volume, quantity and quality...

 

[RobertWeathers]

I mean he was literally the best QB from inside the pocket the year before Bob. No one was as good or efficient. He came back and put up good #'s when the entire team regressed as well.

He's not for everyone and really can't shake the narratives. That don't help.

In 2019 he was middle of the pack (14th) in adjusted completion % inside the pocket.

 

[ausbacker]

I agree with Lamar, so much so the Ravens should lock up his "talents" with a 10-year $450 (heck why not $500) million extension.