Still No # 1WR

[NG Pats Fan]

Agreed, nobody was complaining about Harry when he was drafted. This wasn't a "Jordan Richards" pick where everyone was scratching their heads when he was drafted.

most people wanted AJ Brown. Vast majority knew he was better

also Harry’s College tape looked average compared to Browns

 

[woolster22]

didn’t take a rocket scientist to identify AJ Browns college tape far exceeded Harriet’s

Teresa Glenn approves this message.

 

[Deus Irae]

Agreed, nobody was complaining about Harry when he was drafted.

That's not correct.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

most people wanted AJ Brown. Vast majority knew he was better

also Harry’s College tape looked average compared to Browns

Yeah. This past draft was refreshing in that it seemed common sense prevailed especially in the early rounds and we didn't go with some weird pick just to seem smart, or give up a ton of value going after a guy 3 rounds too early. And avoided the CB/WR bust picks. It went way better this year. NKeal Harry was not a consensus pick, it was more people assuming Belichick's first time getting a WR in the first round meant something good that we didn't know, but turns out it was the same John Carroll low-IQ braintrust totally whiffing on guys.

.

 

[Ollie]

most people wanted AJ Brown. Vast majority knew he was better

also Harry’s College tape looked average compared to Browns

Welcome To The Pats N'Keal Harry

The more and more I read up on this kid the more and more I’m loving the pick!!

www.patsfans.com

I'm only a few pages in but most people seem quite happy. Sure some did want Brown but show me a pick where everyone agrees. It wasn't roundly criticised as a pick at all.

 

[catent]

RE: The Brady v. Brees conversation, I certainly wouldn't say there are lightyears between the two. Brees is an exceptionally good QB, but Brady is better. How much better? I'd say 10-20%. I think what sets Brady apart from most is that he doesn't make back-breaking mistakes that lose his team games - that's one of his most important traits, along with the fact that he's mentally tough and elevates his play in the face of adversity and pressure.

I do think Wozzy has a fair point, though, and that is football teams win games. One needs to simply look at 2007-2011, when the Patriots won zero Super Bowls despite Brady arguably playing the best football of his career during that stretch, with his two of his three MVPs coming during that period of time (2007, 2011). The team didn't fail to win a Super Bowl because Brady wasn't lifting the team and carrying them; they failed to win a Super Bowl because a team comprised of 46/48/53 individuals, offense, defense, and special teams, didn't play well enough over the course of 3-to-4 postseason games.

For every offensive game-winning play, there is often a defensive or special teams equivalent.

The Patriots don't win in 2014/15 without Brady's clinical drives late in the Seattle Super Bowl including his lasers to Jules and Gronk; likewise, they don't win if Hightower doesn't make a crucial tackle and Malcolm Butler doesn't make the play of his life.

The Patriots don't win in 2016/17 without Brady's perfect 18 minutes + OT to finish that game; likewise, they don't win without Hightower's strip sack, or Long forcing a holding call to knock the Falcons out of FG range.

The Patriots don't win in 2018/19 without Brady's dime to Gronk to move the ball to the goal-line; likewise, they don't win without the defense not allowing a TD, holding the Rams high-powered offense to 3 total points over the course of 60 minutes.

This also goes in the opposite direction:

2007 - Brady engineers a beautiful drive to finally give the Pats the lead late in the game, but ultimately doesn't walk away with a Super Bowl victory because the defense couldn't make a stop or catch multiple INTs ... coupled with horrible officiating.

I think the point Wozzy is making is that Super Bowl victories, by their very nature, are completely team-dependent. You can have the most talented players, including the most talented QB, but if the team doesn't play complete games in the postseason, you will not win a Super Bowl.

Obviously the QB position has a relatively large amount of influence on the outcome of games and Brady deserves all the credit in the world for the Patriots' postseason successes - he's the undisputed GOAT and there's no QB I'd rather have. That said, Super Bowl victories are always team achievements.

 

[PatsWSB47]

RE: The Brady v. Brees conversation, I certainly wouldn't say there are lightyears between the two. Brees is an exceptionally good QB, but Brady is better. How much better? I'd say 10-20%. I think what sets Brady apart from most is that he doesn't make back-breaking mistakes that lose his team games - that's one of his most important traits, along with the fact that he's mentally tough and elevates his play in the face of adversity and pressure.

I do think Wozzy has a fair point, though, and that is football teams win games. One needs to simply look at 2007-2011, when the Patriots won zero Super Bowls despite Brady arguably playing the best football of his career during that stretch, with his two of his three MVPs coming during that period of time (2007, 2011). The team didn't fail to win a Super Bowl because Brady wasn't lifting the team and carrying them; they failed to win a Super Bowl because a team comprised of 45/53 individuals, offense, defense, and special teams, didn't play well enough over the course of 3-to-4 postseason games.

For every offensive game-winning play, there is often a defensive or special teams equivalent.

The Patriots don't win in 2014/15 without Brady's clinical drives late in the Seattle Super Bowl including his lasers to Jules and Gronk; likewise, they don't win if Hightower doesn't make a crucial tackle and Malcolm Butler doesn't make the play of his life.

The Patriots don't win in 2016/17 without Brady's perfect 18 minutes + OT to finish that game; likewise, they don't win without Hightower's strip sack, or Long forcing a holding call to knock the Falcons out of FG range.

The Patriots don't win in 2018/19 without Brady's dime to Gronk to move the ball to the goal-line; likewise, they don't win without the defense not allowing a TD, holding the Rams high-powered offense to 3 total points over the course of 60 minutes.

This also goes in the opposite direction:

2007 - Brady engineers a beautiful drive to finally give the Pats the lead late in the game, but ultimately doesn't walk away with a Super Bowl victory because the defense couldn't make a stop or catch multiple INTs ... coupled with horrible officiating.

I think the point Wozzy is making is that Super Bowl victories, by their very nature, are completely team-dependent. You can have the most talented players, including the most talented QB, but if the team doesn't play complete games in the postseason, you will not win a Super Bowl.

Obviously the QB position has a relatively large amount of influence on the outcome of games and Brady deserves all the credit in the world for the Patriots' postseason successes - he's the undisputed GOAT and there's no QB I'd rather have. That said, Super Bowl victories are always team achievements.

To get to a Superbowl you need everybody. I dont think anyone is saying otherwise. Wozzi wants to spin a different narrative though.

 

[Wozzy]

Know one says magical powers. Dont be absurd

A fangasm that says one offensive player can make the defense, special teams and offensive line into winners is a magical power that doesn't exist... Tom wasn't turning the league worst Raider's Defense into a good defense for example, no matter how much charisma or leadership he possesses.

We're talking football here, not basketball... and even Lebron couldn't get Cleveland over the hump with an average team around him the first time. The fan worship and total lack of how football actually works is frightening.

 

[Wozzy]

I think the point Wozzy is making is that Super Bowl victories, by their very nature, are completely team-dependent. You can have the most talented players, including the most talented QB, but if the team doesn't play complete games in the postseason, you will not win a Super Bowl.

Obviously the QB position has a relatively large amount of influence on the outcome of games and Brady deserves all the credit in the world for the Patriots' postseason successes - he's the undisputed GOAT and there's no QB I'd rather have. That said, Super Bowl victories are always team achievements.

This ^

 

[JMC00]

He had ZERO weapons.

The problem with this was it wasn't for the lack of trying which is the road some people like to take

They had brought in Josh Gordon, they drafted a WR in the 1st, went and signed Antonio Brown after he forced his way out of Oakland. the Week 2 Miami game was supposed to be what that Pats team was.

Then Brown ends up not being able to stay off his phone
Gordon has another relapse
Harry had been injured and came back to a terrible situation for a rookie
the LT & C the 2 most important pieces of the OL were out for much of that year
Even went and used a 2nd round pick on a WR to try to help which he showed something in the first game but then got injured and was hobbled the rest of the way.


Also the thing with ZERO weapons, I don't understand. Why is Edelman suddenly not good when people talk about 2019? He played the whole year. Was statistically the best season of his career.

The truth is the OL injuries (Mason played through much of the year at less than 100%) were a bigger problem then the players Brady was throwing to.

 

[PatsWSB47]

A fangasm that says one offensive player can make the defense, special teams and offensive line into winners is a magical power that doesn't exist... Tom wasn't turning the league worst Raider's Defense into a good defense for example, no matter how much charisma or leadership he possesses.

We're talking football here, not basketball... and even Lebron couldn't get Cleveland over the hump with an average team around him the first time. The fan worship and total lack of how football actually works is frightening.

Virtually every football anylist disagrees with you. Coaches, players and former players disagree with you. Bringing up doomsday scenarios extrene examples where Brady wouldnt be successful doesn't make you right.

 

[Deus Irae]

RE: The Brady v. Brees conversation, I certainly wouldn't say there are lightyears between the two.

There are lightyears between Brady and Brees.

 

[Wozzy]

Virtually every football anylist disagrees with you. Coaches, players and former players disagree with you. Bringing up doomsday scenarios extrene examples where Brady wouldnt be successful doesn't make you right.

“Virtually every football analyst...” is that a real stat? Virtually every football talking heads only aptitude is a degree in broadcast journalism. You need good QB play, it’s not magic.

Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different journeyman QB’s, but it takes one magical one to make it happen... like Nick Foles, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning twice. Sounds legit...

 

[Deus Irae]

“Virtually every football analyst...” is that a real stat? Virtually every football talking heads only aptitude is a degree in broadcast journalism. You need good QB play, it’s not magic.

Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different journeyman QB’s, but it takes one magical one to make it happen... like Nick Foles, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning twice. Sounds legit...

Who here has said that it's impossible to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB?

 

[Wozzy]

Who here has said that it's impossible to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB?

You just said there is light years difference between the NFL’s all-time passing leader and Tom above, and that’s the difference between 1 ring vs 7 rings...

Now anyone can do it...

Just chasing your tail at this point.

 

[Deus Irae]

You just said above there is light years difference between the NFL’s all-time passing leader and Tom above, and that’s the difference between 1 ring vs 7 rings...

Now anyone can do it...

Just chasing your tail at this point.

No, I'm trying to get you to answer simple questions about assertions you've made. So let's try this again:


Who here has said that it's impossible to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB?

 

[Wozzy]

No, I'm trying to get you to answer simple questions about assertions you've made. So let's try this again:


Who here has said that it's impossible to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB?

Load up some questions so I can go down this rabbit hole... meanwhile reread this thread.

 

[Deus Irae]

Load up some questions so I can go down this rabbit hole... meanwhile reread this thread.

I asked the question. You continue to avoid answering it.


Who has said that it's literally impossible to win a Super Bowl without an elite QB? And, to clarify, who has said it, and meant it, rather than just used the word "impossible" or a synonym, as a form of hyperbole?

 

[203Pat]

Load up some questions so I can go down this rabbit hole... meanwhile reread this thread.

 

[PatsWSB47]

“Virtually every football analyst...” is that a real stat? Virtually every football talking heads only aptitude is a degree in broadcast journalism. You need good QB play, it’s not magic.

Joe Gibbs won three different Super Bowls with three different journeyman QB’s, but it takes one magical one to make it happen... like Nick Foles, Joe Flacco and Eli Manning

Will you stop thorowing magic around like that's what we are aguing? Former players and coaches and respected long time football analysts have a lot more football acumen than you do. I look to them before i look to you. Good for Joe Gibbs and the outlier quarterbacks. You forgot to throw out Trent Dilfer the usual fantacy "drop the mike" you agenda guys like to throw out. Brady has gone to 10 Superbowls and won 7 of them. See any connection there? Everyone but you and Rob Parker does.