The cost if we traded up to 11 for Fields

[upstater1]

The fact that the Bears were trading meant we would have needed to offer more than the bears to move up less spots. It was never going to happen.

I disagree with this. We said a long time and right up to the draft that there were clearly 15 top graded prospects so whatever the Patriots did they would land a bonafide stud. At the #20 spot, the guy taken was rated as good as a guy taken at #40 by many teams. The difference between 15 and 20 was huge in this draft. The Giants got Kadarius Toney. Many had him as a 2nd rounder. If they traded to the 15 spot, and with Fields and Mac Jones (assuming a trade up from Chicago) taken, the Giants could have chosen a Micah Parsons or Rashawn Slater or Verah-Tucker.

Look at the guys taken directly after Mac Jones: Zaven Collins, Alex Leatherwood, Kadarius Toney, Jaelen Phillips, Jamin Davis. The grades on these 5 were all over the board. They were nothing like the consensus guys that went top 15. In fact, this draft was notable since it was always the same 15 guys at the top and they all went top 15. The only exception here is Caleb Farley who has injury issues and maybe Christian Darrisaw. You can make a case for those 2 being top 15.

I don't know why we'd have to offer more than the Bears did. Why would the Giants need more to drop fewer spots. Makes no sense.

 

[upstater1]

After realizing the UDFA pool is so weak this year, to have hung on to "Draft Assets" was a wise choice. Particularly as it resulted in both Mac Jones and Christian Barmore...

Fields might be great, but I think that Jones will fit in well here there are so many intangibles on and off the field for him. A 4.0 GPA, Double Major, Masters make me think that he is smarter than average.. then there are the 77% completion rate and the 41-4 TD/int's.

Can you explain what you mean by hanging onto "draft assets"? I don't understand the concept and I've read this whole thread.

 

[upstater1]

Bears swapped first rounders, also gave up a 5th, 2022 1st and 4th.... And we would have only paid a 2nd? Why would you think that? Why would the giants accept only a mid round 2 for the swap?

A variety of reasons.

1. The drop is to 15 instead of 20. At 15 you can grab a Parsons, Slater or Verah-Tucker (assuming both QBs are off the board) instead of a Toney.
2. The Patriots 2nd is for THIS year, whereas Chicago's first is for NEXT year, which always reduces the value somewhat.

 

[Pape]

A variety of reasons.

1. The drop is to 15 instead of 20. At 15 you can grab a Parsons, Slater or Verah-Tucker (assuming both QBs are off the board) instead of a Toney.
2. The Patriots 2nd is for THIS year, whereas Chicago's first is for NEXT year, which always reduces the value somewhat.

its not madden. the other team, the giants in this case, would know who the target qb is... thats called leverage. Would you be happy if the position was reversed, and the Patriots made that deal knowing that every other trade up this year has required multiple picks?

I wouldn't be.

 

[Uptown]

Allegedly...Interesting nonetheless, considering we picked 15th.

 

[Sicilian]

Allegedly...Interesting nonetheless, considering we picked 15th.

Very interesting... They would have taken him at 14, but weren't sold enough to trade up to 11 (if they could, two way street and all that acknowledged). But they obviously were only sold on him in that range, otherwise they would have taken Jones.

From the Pats side, I'm sure there was an educated guess going on, but I wonder if they had some intel that Minnesota didn't like Jones, and thus would be safe to not leap frog them? All speculation, but fun nonetheless. I would love to be an NFL draft spy.

 

[Bill Lee]

I think it’s 100% worth sacrificing a second round pick to get the quarterback prospect you prefer, but I‘m not convinced they preferred Fields over Jones.

I also think it's worth using a 2nd rounder to move up and get the QB you like, but I think that would be too rich for BB's blood.

History shows him only using 3rd round and below assets to move up:

History Says a Patriots Trade Up in Round 1 Unlikely

The New England Patriots could use a franchise quarterback, but they likely would have to set a precedent to get one in the 2021 draft

www.si.com

I think BB would prefer using the first and the second on BPA and going with some veteran FA at QB rather than using a first and a second to get a rookie QB.

I don't think he does the "giant hard on" thing people here keep suggesting he does.

As above, he's the guy who didn't call time out with the Super Bowl on the line, he's cool as a cucumber.

We wont know the answer to these questions for a year or so.

I'd say three years, we need to see the CHI first round pick play for two seasons then we'll know the cost of moving up.

Assume Barmore becomes a Pro Bowler. Like a Chris Jones.

But what if Mac Jones is another Andy Dalton? While Fields is Deshaun Watson?

Would you trade Chris Jones and Andy Dalton for a pre-scandal Deshaun Watson? Of course you would.

Everything in this draft depends on how good Mac jones turns out.

We don't know what Andy Dalton would have become if he played in NE rather than being thrown to the wolves as a rookie in CIN under Marvin Lewis.

I personally would go for Watson and deal with whomever I could find on defense, but I think BB would go for the Chris Jones / Andy Dalton duo.

You gotta realize we're dealing with the benefit of hindsight, BB has to deal with projections, and it'd be more likely he'd go for the defensive stud and the second rounder from TCU as a value pick at QB. There's a lot to be said for two bites of the apple when you don't have the benefit of hindsight to sort things out for you.

If you look at the first 8 years of Dalton's career the numbers are definitely something you could win with: Andy Dalton - Wikipedia

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Very interesting... They would have taken him at 14, but weren't sold enough to trade up to 11 (if they could, two way street and all that acknowledged). But they obviously were only sold on him in that range, otherwise they would have taken Jones.

From the Pats side, I'm sure there was an educated guess going on, but I wonder if they had some intel that Minnesota didn't like Jones, and thus would be safe to not leap frog them? All speculation, but fun nonetheless. I would love to be an NFL draft spy.

I think it's quite possible the Pats preferred Fields over Jones, but not enough to part with a 2nd round draft choice or more, as we see with Minnesota's decision. The price matters, and it's clear as a bell why when you consider either getting or not getting Barmore.

 

[Captain Cliche]

"New England didn’t even call the New York Giants when the 11th pick came on the clock"

Here's your answer (if you can believe the media).
Patriots reportedly passed on first-round trade, even if another team took Mac Jones

 

[Jim Beankie]

After the Bears grabbed Fields, the only team that was a threat to jump ahead of us for Jones was WFT. I know a lot of us would have panicked and moved up to secure our guy right after Fields went, just in case Washington was thinking of doing something. BB didn't panic.

It reminded me of XLIX towards the end when a lot of us were saying "timeout, where's the timeout, come on, why is the clock still running wtf is going on" and Bill is just chillin like "no, something's wrong on their sideline" and seconds later boom, the Seattle coaches send Wilson a bad play and the rest is history.

I kind of see a parallel to this draft when we're panicking wanting to move up the board but he's reading his opponents with a perspective that we're just not privy to.

I'm curious to see if this is true. The Patriots did take their sweet @ss time making the pick (17 whole seconds) when they were up.

"The Patriots ruse was Justin Fields. They apparently made a few calls for the picks 8th through 10th of the first round. When Fields was chosen, the Patriots went radio silent, as in, they aren't going for a quarterback. And whamo!, at their pick, No. 15th overall, they chose Mac Jones.

Was it risky? Hell ya. But upon further review there weren't any real needy QB hunters after Fields, thus allowing the Patriots and Belichick to lie in the weeds and pray."

Pats' Mac Jones: The Chosen One, and more thoughts

May 2—The New England Patriots are done with the 2021 NFL Draft and it appears they got a few of the key players they really and truly wanted. We won't know for a few years about this draft, but we will know probably a little sooner about the ceiling on the Patriots first pick, 15th overall, Mac...

sports.yahoo.com

 

[50-yard-line]

I also think it's worth using a 2nd rounder to move up and get the QB you like, but I think that would be too rich for BB's blood.

History shows him only using 3rd round and below assets to move up:

History Says a Patriots Trade Up in Round 1 Unlikely

The New England Patriots could use a franchise quarterback, but they likely would have to set a precedent to get one in the 2021 draft

www.si.com

I think BB would prefer using the first and the second on BPA and going with some veteran FA at QB rather than using a first and a second to get a rookie QB.

I don't think he does the "giant hard on" thing people here keep suggesting he does.

As above, he's the guy who didn't call time out with the Super Bowl on the line, he's cool as a cucumber.


I'd say three years, we need to see the CHI first round pick play for two seasons then we'll know the cost of moving up.


We don't know what Andy Dalton would have become if he played in NE rather than being thrown to the wolves as a rookie in CIN under Marvin Lewis.

I personally would go for Watson and deal with whomever I could find on defense, but I think BB would go for the Chris Jones / Andy Dalton duo.

You gotta realize we're dealing with the benefit of hindsight, BB has to deal with projections, and it'd be more likely he'd go for the defensive stud and the second rounder from TCU as a value pick at QB. There's a lot to be said for two bites of the apple when you don't have the benefit of hindsight to sort things out for you.

If you look at the first 8 years of Dalton's career the numbers are definitely something you could win with: Andy Dalton - Wikipedia

Good post. Of all the QBs not named Lawrence, the one least likely to bust is Mac Jones.

Lance or Fields might become the next Mahomes! Wilson has all the throws!
Yup, to both - that's not sarcasm, nor a jab at other teams' choices. If Lance thrives, watch out, and in that case, nobody will remember the cost of the trade. If Fields thrives, the Bears did well.

Jones is the least likely to bust, because he's never going to be asked to do as much as the others/isn't starting on a crappy team.

That's BB's way, so here we are.

 

[Bill Lee]

"New England didn’t even call the New York Giants when the 11th pick came on the clock"

Here's your answer (if you can believe the media).
Patriots reportedly passed on first-round trade, even if another team took Mac Jones

Right, because from what I heard, they made a bunch of calls to teams above them before the draft started.

I'm sure they had a good idea of what NYG wanted without having to call them when they were on the clock.

 

[upstater1]

its not madden. the other team, the giants in this case, would know who the target qb is... thats called leverage. Would you be happy if the position was reversed, and the Patriots made that deal knowing that every other trade up this year has required multiple picks?

I wouldn't be.

Im having difficulty understanding what you're saying here.

Of course the Giants had leverage.

But why would they require more to go lower?

That makes no sense. The Giants would prefer to pick higher, especially since all the blue chippers would be gone after 15-16.

Why would we have to give the Giants a better offer than the Bears? I can't get your logic.

 

[upstater1]

Given the quotes in that article about being OK with missing on Jones if that's what it came down to, it seems the Patriots stuck to their grade. If they thought either Fields or Jones was a franchise / Pro Bowl level QB, they obviously would have traded up.

This draft from 16-45 had players who could have all gone in that range. Belichick looked at that as though he was capable of drafting two first rounders this year.

But again--if you think one of these guys is a top echelon QB, you go up and trade for him.

To me the decision to stand pat says a lot about what the Patriots think of either Jones or Fields.

If Chicago took Jones, it's quite possible the Patriots take Fields if he dropped to 15.

 

[Rob0729]

From what is reported, the Pats were not in love with Fields. In fact, Belichick wasn't enamored at all.

I have said all along that the Pats shouldn't have traded up to draft a QB unless they were absolutely in love with him and they weren't with Fields.

 

[DW Toys]

I think it’s 100% worth sacrificing a second round pick to get the quarterback prospect you prefer, but I‘m not convinced they preferred Fields over Jones.

Have to agree Cousin,
Fields unfortunately, still has the stink of former Ohio State QB's like Haskins fair or not. There has never been a successful Ohio State QB in the pros. Isn't that an amazing stat? Plus he quit on his Team in Georgia. Do you want a QB that is thin skinned and can't take controversy? There has to be more to it than that, but we might never know. I would have liked to see him stay in the SEC. 25% of the starting QB's in the NFL came from SEC schools.

He got away with a lot in college. His throws were a half second late which he will not get away with in the NFL. He has a long wind up. I am not saying that can't be corrected. Nor am I saying he can't be the first ever successful Ohio State QB. Did you want the Pats to be the guinea pig in this experiment? I was not a Fan of Newton nor Lamar Jackson and they are successful in the same things that Fields can do, It's funny, I am a fan of Trey Lance and he is similar. Would have been happy with him. Just think he will wind up more consistant tha Fields. Shanahan's pick of Lance over Fields says a lot. Fields had more tape and was a higher brand, but yet the Niners took the least tape and starts.

So.......Are we trying to Draft Lamar Jackson or Justin Herbert to fit our offense.

We have had a season of Cam.....not a fair assessment but he did not raise his game either. So we see how this mobile QB thing works in the Pats system. I hope Cam is really outstanding in 2021 and the kid stays on the bench. I am not of the "bounce Cam" school of thought.

Here is a big misnomer on Jones......"He is not mobile" .................In the Offense Saban constructed for him at Alabama. It seems Saban sets up the Offense for the positive of each QB and does not try to put a round peg in a square hole. Tua had strengths. Hurts had strengths and Jones has different ones. 40 Times? Jones was faster then Mahomes at 4.68 to Mahomes 4.8. He is as fast as Kyle Allen. He is much faster than Jimmie G. He is also faster than Aaron Rodgers at 4.71. Tua's time? 4.76. He and Jones even have the same weight. Ironically Jones had a decent 3 cone as well. You would need an hour glass for TB12. Jones is as fast as Herbert.

Nobody Drafted Mahomes or Rodgers to do what Jackson does. Saban just never set up his offense with Jones to do RPOs. If you had a very accurate passer and two bullets for WRs and a dominating RB, was that necessary?

Yet many on the site were clamoring for the inconsistent Fields. Fields had more star power. I understand that the Pats, and this could be hot air, had Lawrence, Wilson and Jones in that order, Fields was not on their radar. But I suspect that if it was Jones as the only QB of stature at pick #15, they would have taken him. They did not trade down for him and the could have.

I hope Jones and Fields have great careers.

DW Toys

 

[Pape]

Im having difficulty understanding what you're saying here.

Of course the Giants had leverage.

But why would they require more to go lower?

That makes no sense. The Giants would prefer to pick higher, especially since all the blue chippers would be gone after 15-16.

Why would we have to give the Giants a better offer than the Bears? I can't get your logic.

You can't understand why the giants would want more from the Pats than a swap of draft picks and a second?

Because they already had a better offer on the table from the bears? I'm sorry but it's not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[upstater1]

You can't understand why the giants would want more from the Pats than a swap of draft picks and a second?

Because they already had a better offer on the table from the bears? I'm sorry but it's not a difficult concept to understand.

The original post I responded to said we needed to beat the Bears offer.

Unless the Giants prefer low draft picks to choosing earlier, that makes no sense.

 

[upstater1]

Have to agree Cousin,
Fields unfortunately, still has the stink of former Ohio State QB's like Haskins fair or not. There has never been a successful Ohio State QB in the pros. Isn't that an amazing stat? Plus he quit on his Team in Georgia. Do you want a QB that is thin skinned and can't take controversy? There has to be more to it than that, but we might never know. I would have liked to see him stay in the SEC. 25% of the starting QB's in the NFL came from SEC schools.

He got away with a lot in college. His throws were a half second late which he will not get away with in the NFL. He has a long wind up. I am not saying that can't be corrected. Nor am I saying he can't be the first ever successful Ohio State QB. Did you want the Pats to be the guinea pig in this experiment? I was not a Fan of Newton nor Lamar Jackson and they are successful in the same things that Fields can do, It's funny, I am a fan of Trey Lance and he is similar. Would have been happy with him. Just think he will wind up more consistant tha Fields. Shanahan's pick of Lance over Fields says a lot. Fields had more tape and was a higher brand, but yet the Niners took the least tape and starts.

So.......Are we trying to Draft Lamar Jackson or Justin Herbert to fit our offense.

We have had a season of Cam.....not a fair assessment but he did not raise his game either. So we see how this mobile QB thing works in the Pats system. I hope Cam is really outstanding in 2021 and the kid stays on the bench. I am not of the "bounce Cam" school of thought.

Here is a big misnomer on Jones......"He is not mobile" .................In the Offense Saban constructed for him at Alabama. It seems Saban sets up the Offense for the positive of each QB and does not try to put a round peg in a square hole. Tua had strengths. Hurts had strengths and Jones has different ones. 40 Times? Jones was faster then Mahomes at 4.68 to Mahomes 4.8. He is as fast as Kyle Allen. He is much faster than Jimmie G. He is also faster than Aaron Rodgers at 4.71. Tua's time? 4.76. He and Jones even have the same weight. Ironically Jones had a decent 3 cone as well. You would need an hour glass for TB12. Jones is as fast as Herbert.

Nobody Drafted Mahomes or Rodgers to do what Jackson does. Saban just never set up his offense with Jones to do RPOs. If you had a very accurate passer and two bullets for WRs and a dominating RB, was that necessary?

Yet many on the site were clamoring for the inconsistent Fields. Fields had more star power. I understand that the Pats, and this could be hot air, had Lawrence, Wilson and Jones in that order, Fields was not on their radar. But I suspect that if it was Jones as the only QB of stature at pick #15, they would have taken him. They did not trade down for him and the could have.

I hope Jones and Fields have great careers.

DW Toys

Fields is a pocket QB, not a runner.

 

[JMC00]

"New England didn’t even call the New York Giants when the 11th pick came on the clock"

Here's your answer (if you can believe the media).
Patriots reportedly passed on first-round trade, even if another team took Mac Jones

Just a reminder breer is the same guy that said pre-draft that Pats & Panthers had ground work for a trade. Yet now he contradicts himself saying they never had any intention. So if they had no intention why would have they even done ground work?

Panthers, Patriots Have Done 'Some Groundwork' for Potential Trade

Could the Panthers move outside of the top 10?

www.si.com