OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[amfootball]

Health and the timing of the health issues seem to be always a major player.

Look at the last season. The timing of Vea's return from the IR couldn't have been more perfect.

Evans and Godwin's injuries were at the beginning of the season.

The whole team seemed relatively healthy during the playoff run.

KC lost half of it's Oline.

They had their issues in the playoffs - White did not play vs the WFT due to Covid which almost cost them the game if not for Brady playing a flawless game. They were also down both starting safeties in the second half vs GB which again almost cost them if not for jumping out to a huge lead in the first half. AB also did not play that game.

I think it is always easy to look back and think a team was fortunate but TB lost major players when Vea and Howard were lost. Their receiving core was a mess until the bye. Brady covered most of this to get them to the post-season and of course he was still learning on the job. I think the biggest advantage for them was the late bye. They had 12 weeks of games to analyze to make the necessary adjustments to both sides of the ball which is what propelled their 8 game run to the chip.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Tier 1 - Makes everyone better
1. Mahomes
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Wilson
But we do have some concerns sub-tier
5. Watson
Tier 2 - Championship capable with the right support
6. Prescott
7. Ryan
8. Allen
9. Jackson
10. Carr
Boom or Bust: Kyler Murray sub-tier
11. Murray
Tier 3 - Solid but doesn’t inspire championship confidence
12. Stafford
13. Tannehill
14. Garoppolo
15. Mayfield
16. Cousins
Tier 4 - Big Question Mark
17. Wentz
18. Roethlisberger
19. Goff
Tier 5 - Should No Longer Start
20. Bridgewater
21. Trubisky
22. Smith
23. Minshew
24. Jones
25. Lock
26. Darnold

Too Soon To Tell
Burrow
Herbert
Tagovailoa
Hurts

Unknown Situations
Patriots QB (Stidham? Newton?)
Saints QB (Brees return possible but unlikely. Winston? Hill?)

Who had 8 or fewer passing TDs in 2020? Those are the ones who definitely dont make us better. I mean, roughly speaking. Sorry, I am all about stating what looks to me like the obvious here, and I think you guys already get that and have moved on to the advanced class.

 

[amfootball]

It's obvious that we're in a QB transition period. But, even saying that, it's wild to me to look at that QB list and realize that there are only 4 QBs I'm willing to guarantee are good enough to get their teams to the playoffs barring injury. Literally none of the QBs outside of the top 4 give me that feeling of confidence. Heck, I'm not even 100% on Wilson, though it's close enough to that for this exercise.

That's why we need an infusion of elite talent this off-season. Out roster is so bad that even with one of the top 4 QBs we would sruggle to just be a WC.

 

[Tony2046]

Tier 1 - Makes everyone better
1. Mahomes
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Wilson
But we do have some concerns sub-tier
5. Watson
Tier 2 - Championship capable with the right support
6. Prescott
7. Ryan
8. Allen
9. Jackson
10. Carr
Boom or Bust: Kyler Murray sub-tier
11. Murray
Tier 3 - Solid but doesn’t inspire championship confidence
12. Stafford
13. Tannehill
14. Garoppolo
15. Mayfield
16. Cousins
Tier 4 - Big Question Mark
17. Wentz
18. Roethlisberger
19. Goff
Tier 5 - Should No Longer Start
20. Bridgewater
21. Trubisky
22. Smith
23. Minshew
24. Jones
25. Lock
26. Darnold

Too Soon To Tell
Burrow
Herbert
Tagovailoa
Hurts

Unknown Situations
Patriots QB (Stidham? Newton?)
Saints QB (Brees return possible but unlikely. Winston? Hill?)

Not arguing with your list because it's pretty good but Prescott at 6 and higher than Stafford seems wrong to me. But your overall point is correct, imo.

 

[Tony2046]

You forgot Mariota, who according to @luuked and others is "the guy" to take us to the promised land. Imagine spending $20M for Mariota but being perfectly OK with letting the GOAT go over $25M. Lol

You think it will take $20M to sign Mariota? If true then no.

 

[Tony2046]

They had their issues in the playoffs - White did not play vs the WFT due to Covid which almost cost them the game if not for Brady playing a flawless game. They were also down both starting safeties in the second half vs GB which again almost cost them if not for jumping out to a huge lead in the first half. AB also did not play that game.

I think it is always easy to look back and think a team was fortunate but TB lost major players when Vea and Howard were lost. Their receiving core was a mess until the bye. Brady covered most of this to get them to the post-season and of course he was still learning on the job. I think the biggest advantage for them was the late bye. They had 12 weeks of games to analyze to make the necessary adjustments to both sides of the ball which is what propelled their 8 game run to the chip.

I think we're talking about the same thing.

Vea came back at the perfect time.

TB was relatively the healthier team in the Super Bowl.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Not arguing with your list because it's pretty good but Prescott at 6 and higher than Stafford seems wrong to me. But your overall point is correct, imo.

Fair enough. I’m sure I have Prescott much higher than most people.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Question- do you want the Bucs to repeat?

In the short term the answer is easy- no because I want my Pats to win it all.

If the Pats are eliminated in 2021 when the Bucs are still playing - then what? I’m torn. I love watching him play and win. It would be a real tasty cherry on top of Brady’s career. Or a giant turd for haters to have to swallow. But if that happens- regardless of what he says publicly I think he will seriously consider calling it a wrap. He’s at the end of his 2 year deal. He has nothing more to prove. Going out like that is what a champion deserves and if anyone deserves that kind of moment it’s the GOAT.

And obviously it will always be nice to say we are the last team to repeat anyway. Lol.

So, IF the Pats don't win it all, it's the same win-win with Brady as before... if he wins, That's Our Tommy. If he loses, KC ain't no dynasty, oh wait, neither is TB. If he has a terrible year, what a brilliant guy BB was after all, blah blah blah (if that patsfanindenial was about me, ok). There are great ways to look at any outcome... long term, hmmm.

But you know for sure that he doesn't think he's proven everything until he has another dynasty, in Tampa. Because, Tom Brady. Mention any outcome other than Brady Wins Everything Always and it counts as a chip on his shoulder and being underestimated. Like I said before, put him on the injury report for "shoulder chips."

So just for the pure Bradyness of that, yeah, I'd root for him at any stage, keeping handy the various other "pats-positive" storylines if he loses. Less pressure rooting for him this way. Less payoff too. But hell, I've had my first MI now LOL. It's probably better for me.

 

[venecol]

You think it will take $20M to sign Mariota? If true then no.

I read somewhere his existing contract has him at $11M but gets another $9M if he plays 12 games or something like that. So, no.

 

[1960Pats]

Well, it's not helping that the pro coaches are falling into that rut, rather than developing their QBs' pocket abilities. I mean, even the best of the young guns, Mahomes, is very problematic mechanics and behaviors as a passer.

Good point. I thought that Josh Allen was coming around and then I saw him take a dumbass 20 yard sack on a 2 and 4 play in the AFC title game vs the Chiefs.

Brady and others have shown what it takes to win as a pro QB. Stay in the pocket, make the reads and deliver the ball on time. If it's not there and you can throw it away you do that. Taking huge losses or giving the ball to the other team doesn't work. Never has and never will.

 

[Tottie]

Good point. I thought that Josh Allen was coming around and then I saw him take a dumbass 20 yard sack on a 2 and 4 play in the AFC title game vs the Chiefs.

Brady and others have shown what it takes to win as a pro QB. Stay in the pocket, make the reads and deliver the ball on time. If it's not there and you can throw it away you do that. Taking huge losses or giving the ball to the other team doesn't work. Never has and never will.

Good points. I also wonder how the narrative will chance when all the pocket passers are gone. Brees is on his way out and Brady surely in the next few years. Manning is already gone. Fans won't know the difference when these different QBs are all non pocket players. Someone has to win right? It's already starting with the way Mahomes was praised in the SB for basically having no idea how to unload the ball without being mangled. It's just going to be the new normal and people won't even know the difference. First read not there? Run.

 

[Deus Irae]

Good points. I also wonder how the narrative will chance when all the pocket passers are gone. Brees is on his way out and Brady surely in the next few years. Manning is already gone. Fans won't know the difference when these different QBs are all non pocket players. Someone has to win right? It's already starting with the way Mahomes was praised in the SB for basically having no idea how to unload the ball without being mangled. It's just going to be the new normal and people won't even know the difference. First read not there? Run.

Even a lot of the young guns who supposedly can move are going to be working the pocket soon enough. Herbert is going to live or die in the pocket. Burrows will live or die in the pocket. Tua will live or die in the pocket. Wentz' injury seems to have limited him enough that he's going to have to live or die in the pocket. Lawrence, given his weight, had better learn to live or die in the pocket. They might not end up as Bradys/Mannings, and might be more of the Rodgers style, but they're going to need to learn to be somewhere between those two, or they're going to end up with short careers.

I mean, having thought about it over the recent months, I'm becoming less and less impressed with the "mobile" and "running" QBs by the day. So many of them are just an injury away from being RGIII'd, and several others would probably be able to keep playing, but at a greatly diminished level.

 

[Tottie]

Even a lot of the young guns who supposedly can move are going to be working the pocket soon enough. Herbert is going to live or die in the pocket. Burrows will live or die in the pocket. Tua will live or die in the pocket. Wentz' injury seems to have limited him enough that he's going to have to live or die in the pocket. Lawrence, given his weight, had better learn to live or die in the pocket. They might not end up as Bradys/Mannings, and might be more of the Rodgers style, but they're going to need to learn to be somewhere between those two, or they're going to end up with short careers.

I mean, having thought about it over the recent months, I'm becoming less and less impressed with the "mobile" and "running" QBs by the day. So many of them are just an injury away from being RGIII'd, and several others would probably be able to keep playing, but at a greatly diminished level.

Good point on those young kids, but even they are more Rodgers type players than Manning/Brady. They can run to escape the pressure.

 

[RicoG]

Bill is in somewhat of a predicament. If he goes aggressive and spends big on elite FAs, yet the team performs poorly again, his coaching will be in question. If he goes for mid-tier guys and performs poorly, both his coaching and GM skills will be in question.

Obviously, if the team performs better (making playoffs and not being 1 and done), it'll be looked as a win. Winning solves all his problems. Solving the QB conundrum is the main hurdle. Good luck with that.

He should focus on putting out a team that only allows 16-18 pts per game. Imo this would be a step in the right direction and be closer to just needing a QB to be a contender.

The Pat's need to load up as much as possible with young up and comers from the 1st and 2nd rounds of the draft. The best way to do that is to have at least 1 more year of a losing record.

If they have enough of a young core in place, then go for it again in 2022 by going after free agent studs.

For the QB, I hope they get a free agent instead of through draft. Not this year but 2022 or 2023. It could be a young guy with potential like Mariota, Wentz, Goff, Darnold., Garrapolo.

Or if the Pat's can build a stud team, they can lure a QB star that has a couple years left like Wilson or Rodgers. Impossible for 2021, but 2022 or 2023 is very doable.

 

[RicoG]

Even a lot of the young guns who supposedly can move are going to be working the pocket soon enough. Herbert is going to live or die in the pocket. Burrows will live or die in the pocket. Tua will live or die in the pocket. Wentz' injury seems to have limited him enough that he's going to have to live or die in the pocket. Lawrence, given his weight, had better learn to live or die in the pocket. They might not end up as Bradys/Mannings, and might be more of the Rodgers style, but they're going to need to learn to be somewhere between those two, or they're going to end up with short careers.

I mean, having thought about it over the recent months, I'm becoming less and less impressed with the "mobile" and "running" QBs by the day. So many of them are just an injury away from being RGIII'd, and several others would probably be able to keep playing, but at a greatly diminished level.

Totally agree. They are way overhyped. That is also why the media continually undersell Brady at the beginning of the season

I'm not sold on Murray, Tua, and Jackson. I have my doubts even with Watson because his team record this year and playoff records the past years are undeserving of all the hype. At best, they have about 5 years and then they better be able to evolve to more of a pocket passer or they will be either injured or mired in mediocrity.

 

[1960Pats]

Good points. I also wonder how the narrative will chance when all the pocket passers are gone. Brees is on his way out and Brady surely in the next few years. Manning is already gone. Fans won't know the difference when these different QBs are all non pocket players. Someone has to win right? It's already starting with the way Mahomes was praised in the SB for basically having no idea how to unload the ball without being mangled. It's just going to be the new normal and people won't even know the difference. First read not there? Run.

I think the things that are necessary to win in college are not the same in the NYFL. Quite the opposite. Running QBs may come into the league and be all the rage but they aren't winning until they learn how to pass from the pocket. Wilson has done it and Mahomes is getting there, but the list of running QBs who have failed is a mile long and getting longer. The best running QB of them all is Lamar Jackson and he's been struggling more and more as he goes.

 

[amfootball]

Brady and others have shown what it takes to win as a pro QB. Stay in the pocket, make the reads and deliver the ball on time. If it's not there and you can throw it away you do that. Taking huge losses or giving the ball to the other team doesn't work. Never has and never will.

If Mahomes does not change his style he will have 3 more seasons tops before he is RG3'd.

 

[1960Pats]

If Mahomes does not change his style he will have 3 more seasons tops before he is RG3'd.

I don't think Mahomes is in the RG3 category. He can pass from the pocket and is more of the Russell Wilson type. It's also difficult to know how well he can read a defense since he has better weapons than most QBs.

 

[amfootball]

I don't think Mahomes is in the RG3 category. He can pass from the pocket and is more of the Russell Wilson type. It's also difficult to know how well he can read a defense since he has better weapons than most QBs.

Wilson is not injury prone. Mahomes is.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Top 4 QBs

Brady
Rodgers
Mahomes
Wilson


All are almost guaranteed to make the playoffs, as long as they stay healthy.

Wilson is certsintly top 6 but I think its possible Allen/Watson might be better at this point or will be. Not that I disagree with him being good though. What is your opinion on Allen and Watson?