Words on things I watched, read & heard

[Mike the Brit]

Agreed on most. I'd like to hear any thoughts on the bolded?

So here’s how I see it.

I go back to when Jimmy Garoppolo was traded. The Pats got a second rounder for him, which was a really poor return. Couldn’t they have got more for him? If you look at his tape from 2016 when he replaced Brady (especially the first quarter of the game against Miami) there is no doubt that you are looking at an NFL-ready quarterback. Needy teams will use first-round picks on college QBs whom they know may or may not pan out. So only a second for Garoppolo? It’s ridiculous.

The reason is that this was a fire sale. The Pats knew they couldn’t keep Garoppolo and Brady so they had to get what they could and all of the other teams knew that too. But why did the Pats only realize that in the middle of the 17 season? Why didn’t they have an auction at the draft when they’d have got much more. My explanation is that at that time Belichick thought that he was about to make the transition to Garoppolo from Brady.

At this point, it becomes very speculative. Did BB think he was going to trade Tom and have the trade vetoed by the Krafts? Or did he think that he had a “gentleman’s agreement” with Tom that he would go after the Atlanta Super Bowl only for Tom, having played the greatest game ever, to change his mind? Either is compatible with observed behaviour. Whoever was responsible, after that, the behind-the-scenes snippiness between Belichick and Brady (can Alex Guerrero fly on the Pats plane or not?) becomes completely understandable, and it’s probably right that Tom should have now moved on (but thanks for that extra Super Bowl!)

I do have some criticisms to make of both sides, though. Having traded Garoppolo, Belichick then didn’t take a quarterback in 2018 until the 7th round (the immortal Danny Etling) and in 2019 until the 4th. Had he given up on the idea of building for the future or was trying to make a point to the Krafts? And Tom could have made things a lot easier this summer if he had made it clear from the start that he wanted to leave instead of messing people around with mixed signals until the last minute.

But even amazingly successful grown men don’t always behave reasonably, and the Brady-Belichick combination has been the most successful partnership I can think of between any coach and player in any sport -- the fact that it came to a less-than-harmonious end shouldn’t take away from that.

So here we are now, hoping against hope that Cam Newton can re-discover his throwing arm or that Jarrett Stidham is going to grow into glory.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Bill being very open here. Onwenu essentially came out of nowhere in terms of starter-material. Pats weren't expecting it but obviously saw something.



He also could really change things going forward. I thought RT would be a concern but if he can plug that hole our OL is intact barring health. Keep adding, take a shot here and there but we're in good shape there.

Without an OL you're dead. You wont have a QB. Time for your WR/TE. Lanes for your RB. Most important group by far imo even though watching DL is my favorite.

Mentioned it before but we could have a very sweet mix of athleticism and power between the left and right side if we keep Joe and Wynn can stay healthy. This is definitely something to hang on to in the off-season.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

3 days off work!!!

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Bill being very open here. Onwenu essentially came out of nowhere in terms of starter-material. Pats weren't expecting it but obviously saw something.



He also could really change things going forward. I thought RT would be a concern but if he can plug that hole our OL is intact barring health. Keep adding, take a shot here and there but we're in good shape there.

Without an OL you're dead. You wont have a QB. Time for your WR/TE. Lanes for your RB. Most important group by far imo even though watching DL is my favorite.

Mentioned it before but we could have a very sweet mix of athleticism and power between the left and right side if we keep Joe and Wynn can stay healthy. This is definitely something to hang on to in the off-season.

Onwenu is a gem and we should keep him at RT. RT is a much more valuable position than OG.

.

 

[supafly]

Are my eyes deceiving me, or does NE have more cap space than Indy?

 

[captain stone]

Tom Brady be up here...Billy & Cant be down there...

 

[captain stone]

Bill being very open here. Onwenu essentially came out of nowhere in terms of starter-material. Pats weren't expecting it but obviously saw something.



He also could really change things going forward. I thought RT would be a concern but if he can plug that hole our OL is intact barring health. Keep adding, take a shot here and there but we're in good shape there.

Without an OL you're dead. You wont have a QB. Time for your WR/TE. Lanes for your RB. Most important group by far imo even though watching DL is my favorite.

Mentioned it before but we could have a very sweet mix of athleticism and power between the left and right side if we keep Joe and Wynn can stay healthy. This is definitely something to hang on to in the off-season.

Yep...After finding a better vet QB before the draft - shouldn't be too difficult considering where the bar currently rests, re-signing Thuney should be free-agent priority #1, because his replacement is NOT in the building...LOL at those ignorant homers who believed that Frodo was the man for the job...

 

[jmt57]

Are my eyes deceiving me, or does NE have more cap space than Indy?

Also keep in mind that Indy has no quarterbacks under contract for 2021.

Philip Rivers and Jacoby Brissett will both be free agents.

Between the two of them they used up $46 million of cap space in 2020.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Onwenu is a gem and we should keep him at RT. RT is a much more valuable position than OG.

.

Agreed and think that's plan A with him going forward.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yep...After finding a better vet QB before the draft - shouldn't be too difficult considering where the bar currently rests, re-signing Thuney should be free-agent priority #1, because his replacement is NOT in the building...LOL at those ignorant homers who believed that Frodo was the man for the job...

The problem is if you replace him you need production, consistency right away. You lose a lot in terms of ID/calls at the line so the prospect better be producing. And that's the big thing with me. You lose a lot with him besides the play on the field in a time when we're transitioning at QB. Not an impossible fix but important we get it right.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

He's doing a week 17 back pedal. Still love Evan but Cam was legitimately poor in 6-7 games this year. Games you'd have to win overcoming bad play, crucial mistakes and mental errors you'd expect from rookies. Cam didn't have it easy or even good this year but again his play by itself was just bad. I get no response but how would an improved cast fix his mechanics and pocket presence etc. He's just too erratic at this stage in the game.

 

[ralmat55]

COVID has nothing to do with balls thrown at the feet of open receivers.

Nothing against Newton and I do appreciate the difficulties of having no off-season and a minimal trading camp. But, Monday night was week 16, and that was about as bad as I’ve ever seen a Patriot QB play.

 

[Doctor DDS]

He's doing a week 17 back pedal. Still love Evan but Cam was legitimately poor in 6-7 games this year. Games you'd have to win overcoming bad play, crucial mistakes and mental errors you'd expect from rookies. Cam didn't have it easy or even good this year but again his play by itself was just bad. I get no response but how would an improved cast fix his mechanics and pocket presence etc. He's just too erratic at this stage in the game.

There is no doubt that Cam was put in a tough spot and if he was missing throws because he was not on the same page to his WR's then Lazar's narrative would make some sense. His biggest issue was severely missing wide open players either long (Byrd frequently) of more frequently short (Harry in Bills game being the most recent egregious example)

 

[Doctor DDS]

I go back to when Jimmy Garoppolo was traded. The Pats got a second rounder for him, which was a really poor return. Couldn’t they have got more for him? If you look at his tape from 2016 when he replaced Brady (especially the first quarter of the game against Miami) there is no doubt that you are looking at an NFL-ready quarterback. Needy teams will use first-round picks on college QBs whom they know may or may not pan out. So only a second for Garoppolo? It’s ridiculous.

The reason is that this was a fire sale. The Pats knew they couldn’t keep Garoppolo and Brady so they had to get what they could and all of the other teams knew that too. But why did the Pats only realize that in the middle of the 17 season? Why didn’t they have an auction at the draft when they’d have got much more. My explanation is that at that time Belichick thought that he was about to make the transition to Garoppolo from Brady.

If the Pats were going to maximize their return on Jimmy G they needed to trade him after the 2016 season. Problem with that is it would have left the Patriots exposed if Brady declined or got hurt. They seemingly did not want to take that risk. By the time they traded JG he only had a half season left on his contract so in addition to giving up whatever assets it would require they also needed to sign him to a top of market contract. Getting the 49ers to take on the majority of Hoyer's financial burden with the Pats only on the hook for close to league minimum was also a key part of that transaction. In hindsight they should probably have taken the risk and traded him earlier but I certainly understand why they did not.

I do not believe trading Brady was ever really a viable option as the Pats were a win now team and trading him would have resulted in a major cap hit hurting their chances of success in 2017. No way they make it to Super Bowl in 2017 or win it in 2018 if they had traded Brady.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

So here’s how I see it.

I go back to when Jimmy Garoppolo was traded. The Pats got a second rounder for him, which was a really poor return. Couldn’t they have got more for him? If you look at his tape from 2016 when he replaced Brady (especially the first quarter of the game against Miami) there is no doubt that you are looking at an NFL-ready quarterback. Needy teams will use first-round picks on college QBs whom they know may or may not pan out. So only a second for Garoppolo? It’s ridiculous.

The reason is that this was a fire sale. The Pats knew they couldn’t keep Garoppolo and Brady so they had to get what they could and all of the other teams knew that too. But why did the Pats only realize that in the middle of the 17 season? Why didn’t they have an auction at the draft when they’d have got much more. My explanation is that at that time Belichick thought that he was about to make the transition to Garoppolo from Brady.

At this point, it becomes very speculative. Did BB think he was going to trade Tom and have the trade vetoed by the Krafts? Or did he think that he had a “gentleman’s agreement” with Tom that he would go after the Atlanta Super Bowl only for Tom, having played the greatest game ever, to change his mind? Either is compatible with observed behaviour. Whoever was responsible, after that, the behind-the-scenes snippiness between Belichick and Brady (can Alex Guerrero fly on the Pats plane or not?) becomes completely understandable, and it’s probably right that Tom should have now moved on (but thanks for that extra Super Bowl!)

I do have some criticisms to make of both sides, though. Having traded Garoppolo, Belichick then didn’t take a quarterback in 2018 until the 7th round (the immortal Danny Etling) and in 2019 until the 4th. Had he given up on the idea of building for the future or was trying to make a point to the Krafts? And Tom could have made things a lot easier this summer if he had made it clear from the start that he wanted to leave instead of messing people around with mixed signals until the last minute.

But even amazingly successful grown men don’t always behave reasonably, and the Brady-Belichick combination has been the most successful partnership I can think of between any coach and player in any sport -- the fact that it came to a less-than-harmonious end shouldn’t take away from that.

So here we are now, hoping against hope that Cam Newton can re-discover his throwing arm or that Jarrett Stidham is going to grow into glory.

You have to the the contract of the person being traded into account. SF got Jimmy G for 8 games, now if he had a couple years left before he could become a free agent then you would get more for him.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

There is no doubt that Cam was put in a tough spot and if he was missing throws because he was not on the same page to his WR's then Lazar's narrative would make some sense. His biggest issue was severely missing wide open players either long (Byrd frequently) of more frequently short (Harry in Bills game being the most recent egregious example)

Yea some guys turned themselves into pretzels trying to pretend Cam was good. I saw people that write about football lol at people who brought up the fact that Cam threw for 90 yards or only has 6 passing TD or we. Cam was unbelievable from a maturity, teammate pov and how he handled everything. Seems like a genuinely nice dude. Wish him well but unless its a cheap, cheap deal I'm moving on.

 

[captain stone]

He's doing a week 17 back pedal. Still love Evan but Cam was legitimately poor in 6-7 games this year. Games you'd have to win overcoming bad play, crucial mistakes and mental errors you'd expect from rookies. Cam didn't have it easy or even good this year but again his play by itself was just bad. I get no response but how would an improved cast fix his mechanics and pocket presence etc. He's just too erratic at this stage in the game.

Bingo.

Cant's TEs & WRs are the Worst in Football, but that absolutely indisputable fact doesn't mask the other absolutely indisputable - and Inexcusable - fact that Can't mechanics are also the Worst in Football...In Bizarro Football World, it's the ultimate Chicken vs Egg question...

 

[captain stone]

You have to the the contract of the person being traded into account. SF got Jimmy G for 8 games, now if he had a couple years left before he could become a free agent then you would get more for him.

The two main reasons that Bill received such a piss-poor return for Grop were 1) He deliberately limited the market by not wanting to trade him within the AFC; a bidding war for him was therefore never started, a fact supported by at least two in-the-QB-business AFC teams who said that they were not even AWARE that he was available for trade... and 2) He wanted to do a solid for a buddy at the expense of the t-e-a-m. Don't know which of these derelictions of duty is worse...