Bill the GM/HC

[Patsgofor4]

This is a ton of excuse making.

Yes BB has final say but he gives his assistants a ton of leeway to influence or give opinion

.

Give us your evidence that JMD was the reason that the Pats drafted those players. Facts, not opinion or conjecture. He may have personally worked out those players (I don't know if this is true but it's certainly possible) but that doesn't mean that drafting those players was "his call". His opinion would still just be one of many....the player's college coaches, area scouts, director of college scouting, position coach, Pink Stripes and BB.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Give us your evidence that JMD was the reason that the Pats drafted those players. Facts, not opinion or conjecture. He may have personally worked out those players (I don't know if this is true but it's certainly possible) but that doesn't mean that drafting those players was "his call". His opinion would still just be one of many....the player's college coaches, area scouts, director of college scouting, position coach, Pink Stripes and BB.

It's in Michael Holley's freaking book. McDaniels' kid brother coached Maroney in college. Belichick pissed off all his national scouts ignoring listening to them and listening to Josh' idiotic pushing of Maroney. McDaniels also worked out Chad Jackson. This is all fact. Josh McDaniels sucks at drafting.

.

 

[Patsgofor4]

It's in Michael Holley's freaking book. McDaniels' kid brother coached Maroney in college. Belichick pissed off all his national scouts ignoring listening them and listening to Josh' idiotic pushing of Maroney. He also worked out Chad Jackson. This is all fact. Josh McDaniels sucks at drafting.

.

As I wrote already, working out a player (likely at the request of his head coach) who ultimately was drafted by the Pats is not evidence that JMD was the reason they drafted him. Plus, I'm sure that Jackson was very impressive in the workout....physical specimen, elite athlete. Jackson's problems were between his ears. Urban Meyer likely had much more to do with the Pats drafting Jackson than JMD.

So you have one concrete example - Maroney. Got it.

 

[Captain Cliche]

The Patriots are better at drafting than you may think

"The Patriots are not perfect at drafting, that is obvious. That said, they are better than a lot of people give them credit for and have built their success over the past two decades in large parts because of their ability to find serviceable players through the draft. Add the fact that they are as good as any organization when it comes to identifying talent on the free agency and trade markets, and in terms of managing the salary cap, and you get the pillars for what is the most successful run in modern NFL history."

 

[TheRainMaker]

As I wrote already, working out a player (likely at the request of his head coach) who ultimately was drafted by the Pats is not evidence that JMD was the reason they drafted him. Plus, I'm sure that Jackson was very impressive in the workout....physical specimen, elite athlete. Jackson's problems were between his ears. Urban Meyer likely had much more to do with the Pats drafting Jackson than JMD.

So you have one concrete example - Maroney. Got it.

It's been reported by Reiss or other credible insiders that McDaniels pushed for both Maroney and Jackson.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Regarding the Maroney and Jackson debate:

Had BB drafted the obvious choices (D'Angelo Williams and Greg Jennings), they easily win in 2007 (assuming they still trade for Moss/Welker) and probably a couple of others during their 10 year drought.

 

[Patsgofor4]

Regarding the Maroney and Jackson debate:

Had BB drafted the obvious choices (D'Angelo Williams and Greg Jennings), they easily win in 2007 (assuming they still trade for Moss/Welker) and probably a couple of others during their 10 year drought.

Jennings had a great career but he lasted until the 52nd pick for a reason....likely in part because he played against lesser competition in the MAC, and it was hard to predict how that production would translate at the professional level.

Given Williams' insane production during his final two years, he should have been the pick but maybe they liked the fact that Maroney had split time with Barber in college (Williams had 330 more carries in college), given the limited lifespan of NFL running backs. Its not as if Maroney was a stiff at Minnesota. At the time he was only the third RB in Big Ten Conference history to rush for 1,000 yards in each of his first three seasons. He had a good start to his career (first two seasons) with the Pats but ultimately enjoyed dancing too much and contact too little. For some reason I remember listening to BB's comments about Maroney at the end of day 1 and he clearly was very high on him, regardless of what JMD thought.

The irony is that both Jennings and Williams had elite 3-cone numbers.

In general, I hate retrospective "what if" or "if only" discussions. It's easy to ace the test when you have all of the answers already. Every team is guilty of huge misses and mistakes on players that end up being starters or Pro Bowl level players, in almost every draft. We simply don't have all of the information that went into picking or not picking (not a good scheme fit, bad interview, poor workout, negative review by college coaches - bad locker room guy or lazy or both) an individual player.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Jennings had a great career but he lasted until the 52nd pick for a reason....likely in part because he played against lesser competition in the MAC, and it was hard to predict how that production would translate at the professional level.

Given Williams' insane production during his final two years, he should have been the pick but maybe they liked the fact that Maroney had split time with Barber in college (Williams had 330 more carries in college), given the limited lifespan of NFL running backs. Its not as if Maroney was a stiff at Minnesota. At the time he was only the third RB in Big Ten Conference history to rush for 1,000 yards in each of his first three seasons. He had a good start to his career (first two seasons) with the Pats but ultimately enjoyed dancing too much and contact too little. For some reason I remember listening to BB's comments about Maroney at the end of day 1 and he clearly was very high on him, regardless of what JMD thought.

The irony is that both Jennings and Williams had elite 3-cone numbers.

In general, I hate retrospective "what if" or "if only" discussions. It's easy to ace the test when you have all of the answers already. Every team is guilty of huge misses and mistakes on players that end up being starters or Pro Bowl level players, in almost every draft. We simply don't have all of the information that went into picking or not picking (not a good scheme fit, bad interview, poor workout, negative review by college coaches - bad locker room guy or lazy or both) an individual player.

I agree that the amount of carries Williams had in college was a big knock on him that he tried to defend himself prior to the draft. Fun fact: Williams has revealed he hates the Pats because they took Maroney over him. He had a feeling he was going to the Pats and was shocked they didn't take him. Ditto with Jennings, he thought he was going to the Pats.

Maroney's big knock coming out of college was that he had massive holes opening up for him and scouts didn't see enough of him running through "trash". They were right, his vision was beyond atrocious.

The most notable knock on Jennings was his speed and teams (including the Pats) fell into that trap "speed over production". Jackson shot up draft boards after his combine (most notably his 40 time) and a some video of a him winning a competition catching balls. I think he caught every pass and his hands looked like they had glue on them.

Despite this, both Jennings and Williams were arguably the top players at their position by scouts and analyst.

 

[203Pat]

The 25 worst draft picks in Ravens history: Kyle Boller, Dan Cody and a parade of wide receivers

I doubt very much that ravens fans nitpick Ozzie to death, despite a lot of misfires in the draft. Then again they also don't have the equivalent to the extreme Brady worshipers, who have sunk to new lows during the past 2-3 seasons, and offseasons, in defense of their God.

If defending the infallible Tommy Boy at all costs means that they must trash Belichick's success and aptitude as a GM, often with false assumptions, unrealistic expectations and fact-twisting, so be it. BB didn't do the seemingly impossible, creating a dynasty with a 20 year record of sustained excellence,
in the salary cap era, with unprecedented free agent movement, with teams regularly hiring away his coordinators, while consistently picking at the end of each round. It was all Brady.

Lol did Tom Brady pee in your Cheerios? I am on record in this thread of saying I think all things considered Bill is a good GM but his recent drafts have been bad. Not sure what "unrealistic expectations" are being put on Bill. To draft Pro Bowl caliber (starters not the 33 alternate) players in the first 2 rounds? He hasn't done that recently. To draft players in the first three rounds who are even still on the roster a in year two or three? Duke Dawson, Antonio Garcia, Cyrus Jones, Vincent Valentine, Geno Grissom, Dominique Easley. All washouts who were drafted early and did nothing and were gone 1-3 years later.

Somehow you deem Brady infallible but refuse to acknowledge how bad Bill's last few years of drafting has been. In the last 2-3 seasons Brady won the NFL MVP and went to two Super Bowls and won one. Not sure why Brady shouldn't get credit for that but Bill should. Oh wait...it is because one still wears the logo and the other doesn't. Take off your footie pajamas and realize that at the absolute minimum the credit for the last 2 decades of success is 50/50 between the 2.

 

[203Pat]

Sony is a very good player.

N'Keal the jury is still out on because he was injured last year and their QB was disgruntled, I think he'll be very good this year assuming health, as will Sony again if blocking improves and he's healthy.

Maroney got injured, not sure how you predict that.

Chad Jackson was a bust, he had all the talent in the world and sucked anyway, didn't even show a hint of making it.

Josh McDaniels doesn't make draft picks, why are they his mistakes again when Bill has final say?

Sony is not a very good player. He is a very average player.

 

[Wozzy]

Sony is not a very good player. He is a very average player.

Many Patriots fans have bought the BS narrative that all our players (excluding 12) arent "talented."

Average RB's don't lead the NFL postseason in every possible rushing statistic in 2018, if he played all 16 games he would have been top 5 in rushing in the NFL that year based on averages... so this is a case of too many fans listening to local radio stations telling us everyone sucks.

 

[203Pat]

Many Patriots fans have bought the BS narrative that all our players (excluding 12) arent "talented."

Average RB's don't lead the NFL postseason in every possible rushing statistic in 2018, if he played all 16 games he would have been top 5 in rushing in the NFL that year based on averages... so this is a case of too many fans listening to local radio stations telling us everyone sucks.

And what happened last year when he did play all 16 games? Let me guess it was all the blocking? Lagarrette Blount and BenJarvus Green-Ellis can run well when they have a great offensive line and wouldn't run well if they didn't. They weren't drafted in the first round though...

 

[Patriot Missile]

And what happened last year when he did play all 16 games? Let me guess it was all the blocking? Lagarrette Blount and BenJarvus Green-Ellis can run well when they have a great offensive line and wouldn't run well if they didn't. They weren't drafted in the first round though...

We have 2 samples from Sony’s career, one good one in 18 and one extremely subpar one in 19. So as far as I’m concerned you are right and wrong based off of 2 years of production. I’m going to see how he performs in year 3 before making a proclamation that he is just average. Don’t think he’ll ever get the touches he got like in 18 due to a crowded backfield and the possible bigger role for the rookie from last year. However he better make the most of his touches and win a role outright or he will be a casualty in year 4.

 

[203Pat]

We have 2 samples from Sony’s career, one good one in 18 and one extremely subpar one in 19. So as far as I’m concerned you are right and wrong based off of 2 years of production. I’m going to see how he performs in year 3 before making a proclamation that he is just average. Don’t think he’ll ever get the touches he got like in 18 due to a crowded backfield and the possible bigger role for the rookie from last year. However he better make the most of his touches and win a role outright or he will be a casualty in year 4.

I am not even talking about stats as much. Based on the eyeball test he doesn't do anything that makes him special. He isn't fast, doesn't make people miss, offers nothing as a pass catcher, and has never broken open a long TD run. If you were to have Sony swap jerseys with Blount or BJGE and then watch them play there wouldn't be much difference.

 

[Wozzy]

And what happened last year when he did play all 16 games? Let me guess it was all the blocking? Lagarrette Blount and BenJarvus Green-Ellis can run well when they have a great offensive line and wouldn't run well if they didn't. They weren't drafted in the first round though...

I love that blocking is considered something arbitrary or doesn't matter... just a total fan take. Blocking allows QB's the time to throw, it allows RB's the ability to run, blocking and tackling is football. Football is won at the line of scrimmage.

Sony was drafted in the 1st not only because he is talented but because he could play right away. Caesario in his post-draft recap gave this as the first reason why, Sony understood complex pass blocking schemes. The average fan doesn't understand this, it doesn't move the needle on their fantasy football team... but it leads to actually winning football games.

What happens to good RB's with no blocking, let's take a look at Todd Gurley in a similar year with poor blocking and very little passing threat:

Player Year Gms Att Yds TDs Avg
Todd Gurley 2016 16 278 885 6 3.2
Sony Michel 2019 16 247 912 7 3.7

Gurley two subsequent years after Jeff Fisher got fired:

Player Year Gms Att Yds TDs Avg
Todd Gurley 2017 15 279 1305 13 4.7
Todd Gurley 2018 14 256 1251 17 4.9

He made the All Pro Team, Pro Bowl and led the NFL in rushing TD's both years.

Let me guess, his talent magically disappeared for one season after his great rookie year only to magically reappear the following one.

If you want to make the case Sony was a poor 1st round pick because he had pre-existing knee conditions (probably agree) or because RB's shouldn't be taken that high (probably agree) that's one thing, "average" isn't a good take.

Latavius Murray is average, there is "average" sitting on rosters across the NFL as most teams roster 5-6 RB's.

So stop, you're having a faneurysm.

 

[Wozzy]

We have 2 samples from Sony’s career, one good one in 18 and one extremely subpar one in 19. So as far as I’m concerned you are right and wrong based off of 2 years of production. I’m going to see how he performs in year 3 before making a proclamation that he is just average. Don’t think he’ll ever get the touches he got like in 18 due to a crowded backfield and the possible bigger role for the rookie from last year. However he better make the most of his touches and win a role outright or he will be a casualty in year 4.

Tom Brady is the only player who "sucked" in 2019 due to his surrounding talent, everyone else sucked due to their talent level... just absurd.

Also Sony is and always has been in a RB committee. Nick Chubb, Saquon Barkley, Todd Gurley... these guys only come off the field when they're injured... like never.

James White led the Patriots in RB snaps in 2018 and 2019 with Sony right behind, Rex (when healthy) got all of the mop up duty and garbage time rushes.

Fans need to understand, BB doesn't care about your fantasy football team.

 

[captain stone]

1)As savvy and ruthless as there is with contracts. Who's been better during the salary cap era?

2)Multiple HOF players drafted or borderline HOF. Multiple UDFA stars that have gotten paid. Through two decades.

3) Pats have been as balanced and talented as there is for decades.

Obviously Miller is discounting Nick. So let's play along ...

We all know Bill has his misses. Big misses at times. That said, from just a GM standpoint, who is better collectively? Drafting, contracts, FA, trades, competitive-balanced team ...

Needless to say having Brady helped but there's so much else to look at and make a judgement. Also I think Brady's contracts are relevant, no?

How is Bill as a GM? Is anyone better, who? Let's hear it.

Matt Miller is absolutely correct on the first count...and, save for 2015 minus his gutless SB "performance", not that far off on the second one (as was Nolan Nawrocki).

 

[Uptown]

I love that blocking is considered something arbitrary or doesn't matter... just a total fan take. Blocking allows QB's the time to throw, it allows RB's the ability to run, blocking and tackling is football. Football is won at the line of scrimmage.

Sony was drafted in the 1st not only because he is talented but because he could play right away. Caesario in his post-draft recap gave this as the first reason why, Sony understood complex pass blocking schemes. The average fan doesn't understand this, it doesn't move the needle on their fantasy football team... but it leads to actually winning football games.

What happens to good RB's with no blocking, let's take a look at Todd Gurley in a similar year with poor blocking and very little passing threat:

Player Year Gms Att Yds TDs Avg
Todd Gurley 2016 16 278 885 6 3.2
Sony Michel 2019 16 247 912 7 3.7

Gurley two subsequent years after Jeff Fisher got fired:

Player Year Gms Att Yds TDs Avg
Todd Gurley 2017 15 279 1305 13 4.7
Todd Gurley 2018 14 256 1251 17 4.9

He made the All Pro Team, Pro Bowl and led the NFL in rushing TD's both years.

Let me guess, his talent magically disappeared for one season after his great rookie year only to magically reappear the following one.

If you want to make the case Sony was a poor 1st round pick because he had pre-existing knee conditions (probably agree) or because RB's shouldn't be taken that high (probably agree) that's one thing, "average" isn't a good take.

Latavius Murray is average, there is "average" sitting on rosters across the NFL as most teams roster 5-6 RB's.

So stop, you're having a faneurysm.

Yep, as a matter of fact...BAD blocking (or no blocking at all depending on your perspective) helped win us a SB in 2016.. (See Devonta Freeman)

Devonta Freeman on Super Bowl block: 'My mistake is a scar. I'm going to learn from it'

 

[Wozzy]

Yep, as a matter of fact...BAD blocking (or no blocking at all depending on your perspective) helped win us a SB in 2016.. (See Devonta Freeman)

Bad RB blocking mangled Alex Smith's leg like a pretzel... casual fans only understand fantasy stats.

 

[203Pat]

I love that blocking is considered something arbitrary or doesn't matter... just a total fan take. Blocking allows QB's the time to throw, it allows RB's the ability to run, blocking and tackling is football. Football is won at the line of scrimmage.

Sony was drafted in the 1st not only because he is talented but because he could play right away. Caesario in his post-draft recap gave this as the first reason why, Sony understood complex pass blocking schemes. The average fan doesn't understand this, it doesn't move the needle on their fantasy football team... but it leads to actually winning football games.

What happens to good RB's with no blocking, let's take a look at Todd Gurley in a similar year with poor blocking and very little passing threat:

Todd Gurley 2016 16 278 885 6 3.2
Sony Michel 2019 16 247 912 7 3.7

Gurley two subsequent years after Jeff Fisher got fired:

Todd Gurley 2017 15 279 1305 13 4.7
Todd Gurley 2018 14 256 1251 17 4.9

He made the All Pro Team, Pro Bowl and led the NFL in rushing TD's both years.

Let me guess, his talent magically disappeared for one season after his great rookie year only to magically reappear the following one.

If you want to make the case Sony was a poor 1st round pick because he had pre-existing knee conditions (probably agree) or because RB's shouldn't be taken that high (probably agree) that's one thing, "average" isn't a good take.

Latavius Murray is average, there is "average" sitting on rosters across the NFL as most teams roster 5-6 RB's.

So stop, you're having a faneurysm.

Blocking makes a difference in the NFL? You don't say?! Aside from Newhouse at left tackle for half the year the blocking wasn't anywhere near as bad as it is portrayed to be when it comes to Sony's ineffectiveness. Burkhead and James White, granted while with far less carries, didn't look as bad as Sony. Maybe because Sony's crappiness as a pass catcher telegraphs what the team is going to do when he is in the game.

BGJE could pass block. Blount couldn't and both were JAGs who will likely have comparable career numbers to Sony.

Maybe going from one of the worst coaches in the league to one of the best offensive minded coaches in the league helped Gurley out. Not really sure how you can equate that to blocking.