Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Soliel]

So show me an example of things I actually said.
That’s the point.
What specifically are you saying I was wrong about?
Telling a lynchmob to slow down and wait for facts is not wrong. Not accepting conspiracy theories without fact is not wrong.
This thread was an exercise of people putting words in my mouth to create something to argue against that I didn’t say.
The incorrect things that people attributed to me were wrong in many ways. But those weren’t the things I actually said.

I’m guilty of that a few times. There are a few times when you were not correct though

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So show me an example of things I actually said.
That’s the point.
What specifically are you saying I was wrong about?
Telling a lynchmob to slow down and wait for facts is not wrong. Not accepting conspiracy theories without fact is not wrong.
This thread was an exercise of people putting words in my mouth to create something to argue against that I didn’t say.
The incorrect things that people attributed to me were wrong in many ways. But those weren’t the things I actually said.

At least 20 forum members drew a similar conclusion from all of the court documents and reports. All the opinions were similar except for yours. Going beyond whose right or wrong, how do label the near-unanimous majority as using “conspiracy theories”? It goes to show your arrogance and stubbornness in labeling this as any type of crazy conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory clearly turned out to be that the police were indeed telling the truth, this was all legitimate, and the documents, communications, testimony, and facts of the case that @venecol provided must be some conspiracy. You were too busy burying your head into cement to realize this very clear reversal of narrative in the case that unfolded immediately after the initial grandiose story from the PD.

 

[Kontradiction]

You know nothing about me Meathead.

Sure I do. That you’re now down to responses like this tells me all I need to know. And you don’t want to trade insults either. You’re less equipped to deal with me in that arena than you are in a debate. Take the L, move on, and wallow in all the events of your life that went horribly wrong that led you to be who you are.

 

[Soliel]

My main issue is Andy declared kraft guilty before any evidence even came out or was suppressed. I could site 30 examples but don’t have the energy. On top of that, the way he worded his posts, he’s got an escape hatch in them in that he didn’t really make declarations.

 

[Kontradiction]

My main issue is Andy declared kraft guilty before any evidence even came out or was suppressed. I could site 30 examples but don’t have the energy. On top of that, the way he worded his posts, he’s got an escape hatch in them in that he didn’t really make declarations.

Except he did. I’ve noted two of them. His first post in the thread yesterday after the evidence was sealed and one post in a response to another poster back in April where he says the following: I don’t believe they will rule that way.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Also @AndyJohnson you claim in your re-post that the burden of proof is on both sides, but your burden of proof was always on the side of the defense. You took what the prosecutors said as facts, hence your “conspiracy theory” comment once again, that we should trust the PD/prosecutor’s account unless proven otherwise. That was your argument the entire thread. How can reconcile that with burden of proof being on both sides (which in fact the burden of proof is on the prosecution, ironically.). The prosecution “went first” in spilling their absurdly overcooked story of human trafficking, justifications, etc, and you took those as facts and put the burden on the defense, which is impossible since in this case you are the impossible arbitrator of facts.

You did this. This is why everyone is appalled that you can’t acknowledge it.

Also, we had a discussion specifically about the warrant where I brought up the point about females and innocent males - and even brought up the question of whether you’d be okay with a female family member walking into the massage for legit reasons and being surveilled. You seemed to get angry with the suggestion that that they’d be in a “brothel.” You were adamant that you’d still choose this surveillance tactic in the name of public safety. Well, this actually the reason cited for throwing out all the video evidence.

You were wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

At least 20 forum members drew a similar conclusion from all of the court documents and reports.

98% of this thread occurred before there were an court documents. A large majority was written based upon an article written by a lawyer with no knowledge of the case.

All the opinions were similar except for yours. Going beyond whose right or wrong, how do label the near-unanimous majority as using “conspiracy theories”?

A VOCAL majority and made up of people who entered the discussion with an agenda. Of course the only guy posting without an agenda was on the other side.

It goes to show your arrogance and stubbornness in labeling this as any type of crazy conspiracy theory. The conspiracy theory clearly turned out to be that the police were indeed telling the truth, this was all legitimate, and the documents, communications, testimony, and facts of the case that @venecol provided must be some conspiracy.

It was a conspiracy theory. Why? Because it was based upon not knowing the facts and being suspicious that they must have find something wrong.
You do realize that many of the things you claimed are not what happened or what the judge ruled don’t you?

You were too busy burying your head into cement to realize this very clear reversal of narrative in the case that unfolded immediately after the initial grandiose story from the PD.

This is where we differ. You think that people speculating is a “narrative”. How do you respond to all of the things you claimed that didn’t happen?
One of the things you said did happen. Total vindication? Really?

 

[Ring 6]

I’m guilty of that a few times. There are a few times when you were not correct though

I said Kraft did it and I stand by that. Only a fool would claim he didn’t.
I never declared him guilty. Guilt is determined in court.

 

[Ring 6]

Except he did. I’ve noted two of them. His first post in the thread yesterday after the evidence was sealed and one post in a response to another poster back in April where he says the following: I don’t believe they will rule that way.

You are as always wrong.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You are as always wrong.

How can someone be wrong in quoting your own post? Are you saying that isn’t your post? @KontradictioN is just trying to fool everyone by putting up a fake quotation attributed to you?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So, Andy, I declared numerous times at the beginning of this entire ordeal that the PD is going to be the ones with egg on their faces, should lawyer up, and have no idea what kind of sht they are wading into after taping unknowing, disrobed people who have a reasonable expectation of privacy. That they should walk the fck away and pray that this case never goes to court. And this is pretty much exactly how I said it would unfold. The video could be deemed inadmissible, and therefore they’d have an unauthorized porno video rather than evidence because the ruling from the judge is like a magic wand that has the capability to do this exact thing. As usual you were really quick to point out all the flaws in my thinking, while still asserting that your reasoning can’t be assailed, since it based on facts. Funny how all these things are now happening.

ESPN's T.J. Quinn on M&C: Robert Kraft potentially could sue state of Florida

Kraft will probably stay the hll away from this, but I expect massive lawsuits from every citizen who was recorded by the PD, especially women. That’s the type of insane risks the PD wades into when doing something as insane as this. You don’t seem to grasp just how invasive and over-the-top this surveillance tactic was and why it would need to be regulated with extreme, extreme caution...rather than, as you said, being fine with some innocent people being recorded and watched too, as long as it’s for the greater good.

Heads are going to roll. And all of us (except you) suspected this might be coming. The risk:reward from the police department here is abhorrent irresponsible. And that will be apparent when they get sued for gigantic amounts of money.

 

[Kontradiction]

You are as always wrong.

Nah. See, I don’t have some sort of massive character flaw which is clearly combined with an inferiority complex. I admit when I’m wrong. That’s why I didn’t have to search posts to recall the last time I was. That’s why I’ve been promotable and promoted to a career that no longer affords me the ability to compile 56 posts (and counting) in one single day (37 of which have come after noon). That’s why I don’t have a divorce under my belt.

In the end, I used your own words. This has been a thorough, one sided demolition as is usually the case between us. Like I said, cut your losses, take your L, and go home. You’ve made 56 posts today. There have been exactly zero where you’ve looked good. First rule of holes, Andy. When you’re in one, stop digging.

 

[Ring 6]

Also @AndyJohnson you claim in your re-post that the burden of proof is on both sides, but your burden of proof was always on the side of the defense.

Good point. But that wasn’t referring to the legal burden of proof it was referring to the burden of proof within the discussion

You took what the prosecutors said as facts, hence your “conspiracy theory” comment once again, that we should trust the PD/prosecutor’s account unless proven otherwise.

So explain the one to me.
The ONLY information we have at that point are the charges and the story behind them.
WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OF WTOHG DOING how do you not, at that point, start from that assumption what is being said is accurate? It’s not a conclusion, it’s a point in time where in essence the prosecution has spoken and the defense has not.
I use conspiracy theory because the argument was a bunch of unsupported what ifs.
Do you seriously think that “being right” means to invent all of the possible ways LE could have screwed up and happen to get one right?
Show me where you drew your conclusion based upon a fact known at that time and I will give you credit. But to call an article a defense lawyer wrote wondering if something happened that would invalidate the case isn’t using facts.

That was your argument the entire thread. How can reconcile that with burden of proof being on both sides (which in fact the burden of proof is on the prosecution, ironically.).

That was not my position the entire time my position was we don’t know the facts.
I explained the Biden of proof comment.

The prosecution “went first” in spilling their absurdly overlooked story of human trafficking, justifications, etc, and you took those as facts and put the burden on the defense, which is impossible since in this case you are the impossible arbitrator of facts.

Now you are getting to the point. When you only have one side, until those facts are impeach you have to assume they are correct until more information comes available.
Your attempt to shot holes in the case, more of which was not correct then was is not presenting facts. It’s speculation.
If the point was to guess and speculate what might be found out, it’s a different discussion. You argued as if you were certain when you had nothing but speculation and hope.

You did this. This is why everyone is appalled that you can’t acknowledge it.

I are really really wrong here. Please show me one time when I definitively stated that LE did nothing wrong or that any of your conspiracy theories absolutely did not happen.
I get your misunderstanding because you created a position and argument that you assigned to me. The problem is I never communicated that position you just made it up so you could argue.

Also, we had a discussion specifically about the warrant where I brought up the point about females and innocent males - and even brought up the question of whether you’d be okay with a female family member walking into the massage for legit reasons and being surveilled. You seemed to get angry with the suggestion that that they’d be in a “brothel.” You were adamant that you’d still choose this surveillance tactic in the name of public safety. Well, this actually the reason cited for throwing out all the video evidence.

That is my opinion. Actually you misstate my opinion but it’s not too far off.
But let’s recognize saying I seemed to get angry and was adamant is just your way of trying to sensationalize.

I never said don’t turn the camera off.
I stand by that I value stopping crime over the consequence of a police officer being able to see someone undress. That’s my opinion and neither side of that opinion is right or wrong.

So one of the things you guessed at was right and my reluctance to draw a conclusion without all of the facts meant that my temporary feelings based upon the initial supply of facts turned out to change, in some ways, after all if the facts come out.

 

[Ring 6]

Nah. See, I don’t have some sort of massive character flaw which is clearly combined with an inferiority complex. I admit when I’m wrong. That’s why I didn’t have to search posts to recall the last time I was. That’s why I’ve been promotable and promoted to a career that no longer affords me the ability to compile 56 posts (and counting) in one single day (37 of which have come after noon). That’s why I don’t have a divorce under my belt.

In the end, I used your own words. This has been a thorough, one sided demolition as is usually the case between us. Like I said, cut your losses, take your L, and go home. You’ve made 56 posts today. There have been exactly zero where you’ve looked good. First rule of holes, Andy. When you’re in one, stop digging.

Nice fantasy world you live in. Exactly nothing you say in this post is correct.

 

[Ring 6]

How can someone be wrong in quoting your own post? Are you saying that isn’t your post? @KontradictioN is just trying to fool everyone by putting up a fake quotation attributed to you?

He is wrong because out of that long thread while claiming my entire position was wrong he pulls out a sentence where I guessed, before any of the facts were available that they probably wouldn’t get the tape thrown out.
Using that to represent the entire thread is dishonest.

 

[IcyPatriot]

It really sucks that some would rather attack Andy than discuss the case.
I could care less about the personal opinions towards other members ...

This is not a thread for that purpose ... discuss Kraft, stay out or be locked out.

 

[maust]

So...this is still a thing then?


edit: Apparently so...

Prosecution appeals suppression order in Kraft case

 

[venecol]

So...this is still a thing then?


edit: Apparently so...

Prosecution appeals suppression order in Kraft case

That is unbelievable the SA is continuing this misdemeanor case by filing an appeal. I mean maybe the felony charges against the madame would also have to be dropped without the videos? The entire operation was fraught with error and should just die and go away.

I read that 4 judges threw out the videos? I knew Martin County and this Palm Beach judge had but wasn't aware of 2 others. I wonder how long this takes. FL courts are jammed and super backed up. It takes over 3 years to dispose of a civil suit. This azzh$%le SA needs to let this go. What a ****.

 

[venecol]

So the other two judges are from the Indian River County boat load of cases (200). They just ruled on Thursday same as Martin and Palm Beach.

To summarize: cops were filming everyone, non stop (60 days), they can't read or even understand what the constitution is all about. Judges tore them a new azzh$%le as well as the SA.

Lmfao, the entirety of all cases in Indian River, Martin, and Palm Beach are DOA (except for the idiots that accepted the BS plea deal).

This is the biggest fiasco for law enforcement in the history of Florida. Kraft's money had nothing to do with this. The cops were overreaching and incompetent. The SA wasn't even monitoring them. I hope they get slammed in the appellate circuit and embarrassed even further.

Indian River County judges rule video evidence cannot be used in sex spa cases

 

[venecol]

Apparently the cops thought they were recording home movies.







Indian River County judges rule video evidence cannot be used in sex spa cases