Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[RelocatedPatFan]

Bump

 

[TheRainMaker]

Please lock this thread now

Absolutely not. This arguement will never end.

 

[Kontradiction]

McCourty said and still maintains that he and the defense knew Butler wasn't starting. He later went on to clarify that it had nothing to do with any curfew, or disciplinary reasons. Was it matchup reasons or practice performance reasons or both?

And yet Rowe, the guy who took Butler’s place, said in the immediate wake of the game that he had no idea that Butler wasn’t starting.

Eric Rowe clueless about Malcolm Butler not playing on defense

If Butler not playing was common knowledge, as McCourty made it out to be when the damage control machine went into full effect, shouldn’t the guy actually taking his place have known about it prior?

Lazy? Who are we talking about Jeff Fisher? WTF?? Bringing up his past accomplishments wasn't to excuse any mistakes.

If it’s not to excuse mistakes, then what is that red herring for? Past accomplishments are wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand and each situation should be weighed on its own merits.

"Weakening the secondary when the defensive front was already a massive question mark"? That's why I think Richards played over Butler to strengthen the front. Otherwise you're further weakening the defensive front. Or not?

I could buy that if Richards was worth a damn in run support. Going lighter only made the front a further liability while also putting a guy with a massive target on his back against the pass into the line-up against an RPO. The result was the Eagles rushing at will anyway while Foles took whatever he wanted through the air. The Patriots would have at least had the horses to do something about the latter.

If they put Butler in do the Eagles adjust? Most certainly. Does having Butler in there change the outcome? I don't know. Do I wish he had played? Absolutely but I was also screaming at the TV at the end of SB 49 to call a timeout.

It would be nice if they forced the Eagles to adjust once on offense. Go watch the game again. I don’t think they deviated much at all from their initial game plan. Butler in moves Rowe back to the slot and increases the chances that the Pats make a stop on one of the third down conversions given up by him in the first two series. It also effectively moves McCourty back deep to where he could have been shaded to Butler’s side on longer routes and moved Chung out of the slot later in the game and back into the box. The run defense would have still been suspect, but you’re at least not dismantling the secondary along with it.

Trusting that BB put what he thought was the best personnel on the field because of his past accomplishments is not Lazy rather it means you'll have to come up with a better reason to vilify or accuse him of "feeding his ego" or "sabotaging" or "throwing the game" before I'll buy in.

There’s zero way Belichick thought that what he trotted out on defense was his best personnel considering how the Big Nickel regularly got teabagged during the regular season. He simply made a judgment call and relied on 12 to save his bacon, which he almost did. I don’t think he threw the game or sabotaged the team intentionally, but his decision definitely flushed the Super Bowl down the crapper. But then again, I thought you weren’t bringing up irrelevant past accomplishments to excuse the decision? Sure looks like you’re doing just that right here.

Right now, without knowing the reason, I'll just trust that BB tried to win the game. If something comes out later I'll reevaluate my position.

I’m not of the opinion that BB directly tried to tank the game. But he had to have known that he was putting lesser personnel on the field which constricted what he could do on that side of the ball. Effectively, he put another priority before what his ultimate goal should have been. He then stuck with it even after seeing his defense get tooled in the first half. It is what it is... a rare mistake by the GOAT. It just unfortunately came at the most inopportune time of the 2017 season.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I’ll be looking forward to when BB takes out one of his best pass rushers in the most important game of the year to try to fool the other teams offensive line and see how people on this board defend that decision.

Joking aside, would we be arguing like this had the Pats won the game?

I actually thought he was playing and I blame NBC for making it such a big deal showing him crying on the sidelines. And then Chris Collinsworth blabbering during the game that he hasn’t seen Malcolm Butler play.

But I was wondering why Rowe was on Jeffrey rather than Gilmore.

 

[Ring 6]

Really. I'd put money on it. Maybe BB thought the defense would adapt to the game as it progressed or would eventually catch a break but it didn't happen. I don't know.

I don't think BB benched Butler because of an ego, or to sabotage or to throw the game. I think he and MP thought they had the best personnel on the field to get the job done matchup wise. Turns out they didn't have enough.

Mistake or out manned? The same team that ripped through an elite Minnesota defense.

I think it is a reasonable assumption that the best based to defend the eagles is big nickel. I think it’s pretty iron clad when you consider the DL and LBs we had available.
Brown had to play out of position at NT. Guy had to play on running downs. 85 year old Harrison was getting shoved around like a rag doll at DE. Van Noy had a tough matchup with their IOL. Basically the front 6 was outclassed and we had to do something to compete vs the run without having their TEs and RBs kill us in the passing game. Ultimately we played the scheme that got killed less against both but still killed.

Playing 4 safety dime makes sense as a scheme against that offensive philosophy but we sucked most all the times we used it heavily.

I can see criticism of the gameplan but again come back to a front 6 that was so decimated its frightening to allow an opponent 2 weeks to gameplan against it.

I can’t see where butler in place of Rowe would have made any difference. I can’t see where butler in the half dozen snaps that bademosi was the nickel corner would have made a difference.

Had we played a lot of regular nickel and still not put butler in at some point I’d be more interested in why, but the game plan didn’t call for a 3rd corner barely at all, so I think butler playing zero snaps instead of 6-10 is a minor issue.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think it is a reasonable assumption that the best based to defend the eagles is big nickel. I think it’s pretty iron clad when you consider the DL and LBs we had available.
Brown had to play out of position at NT. Guy had to play on running downs. 85 year old Harrison was getting shoved around like a rag doll at DE. Van Noy had a tough matchup with their IOL. Basically the front 6 was outclassed and we had to do something to compete vs the run without having their TEs and RBs kill us in the passing game. Ultimately we played the scheme that got killed less against both but still killed.

Playing 4 safety dime makes sense as a scheme against that offensive philosophy but we sucked most all the times we used it heavily.

I can see criticism of the gameplan but again come back to a front 6 that was so decimated its frightening to allow an opponent 2 weeks to gameplan against it.

I can’t see where butler in place of Rowe would have made any difference. I can’t see where butler in the half dozen snaps that bademosi was the nickel corner would have made a difference.

Had we played a lot of regular nickel and still not put butler in at some point I’d be more interested in why, but the game plan didn’t call for a 3rd corner barely at all, so I think butler playing zero snaps instead of 6-10 is a minor issue.

Then you know absolutely nothing about the sport. Butler makes the tackle that Bademosi misses on 3rd and 6. Butler also doesn’t get picked on in the first two series of the game the way that Rowe did and is usually in better position against guys like Jeffry who Rowe let cross his face before he found himself trailing, boxed out, and watching the touchdown. The presence of another corner on the field also allows guys like McCourty and Chung to go back to doing what they do best. Finally, this quote is hilarious since you’ve already admitted in another thread that Butler’s presence probably is the difference between a win and a loss. So the bolded is absolute comedy gold all the way around. Well done.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Then you know absolutely nothing about the sport. Butler makes the tackle that Bademosi misses on 3rd and 6. Butler also doesn’t get picked on in the first two series of the game the way that Rowe did and is usually in better position against guys like Jeffry who Rowe let cross his face before he found himself trailing, boxed out, and watching the touchdown. The presence of another corner on the field also allows guys like McCourty and Chung to go back to doing what they do best. Finally, this quote is hilarious since you’ve already admitted in another thread that Butler’s presence probably is the difference between a win and a loss. So the bolded is absolute comedy gold all the way around. Well done.

It’s quite troubling that people would actually disagree with what you are saying here. While Butler hasn’t played the best this year, he makes up for it by punching the ball out of the receivers hands, tipping a pass or making a key tackle. The fact that people would trust Rowe over Butler is mind-boggling.

 

[Kontradiction]

It’s quite troubling that people would actually disagree with what you are saying here. While Butler hasn’t played the best this year, he makes up for it by punching the ball out of the receivers hands, tipping a pass or making a key tackle. The fact that people would trust Rowe over Butler is mind-boggling.

They don't. Nobody did prior to the Super Bowl. They're just doing it now because it's what Bill did.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Onward to 7000!

 

[Ring 6]

It’s quite troubling that people would actually disagree with what you are saying here. While Butler hasn’t played the best this year, he makes up for it by punching the ball out of the receivers hands, tipping a pass or making a key tackle. The fact that people would trust Rowe over Butler is mind-boggling.

Butler got burned a lot. All things equal, and matchup dependent, Butler is a better corner (not against Jeffrey though) but given Butlers poor 2 weeks of preparation and head not being in the game plan the gap isn’t so big that these things wouldn’t close it.

 

[signbabybrady]

And yet Rowe, the guy who took Butler’s place, said in the immediate wake of the game that he had no idea that Butler wasn’t starting.

Eric Rowe clueless about Malcolm Butler not playing on defense

If Butler not playing was common knowledge, as McCourty made it out to be when the damage control machine went into full effect, shouldn’t the guy actually taking his place have known about it prior?



If it’s not to excuse mistakes, then what is that red herring for? Past accomplishments are wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand and each situation should be weighed on its own merits.



I could buy that if Richards was worth a damn in run support. Going lighter only made the front a further liability while also putting a guy with a massive target on his back against the pass into the line-up against an RPO. The result was the Eagles rushing at will anyway while Foles took whatever he wanted through the air. The Patriots would have at least had the horses to do something about the latter.



It would be nice if they forced the Eagles to adjust once on offense. Go watch the game again. I don’t think they deviated much at all from their initial game plan. Butler in moves Rowe back to the slot and increases the chances that the Pats make a stop on one of the third down conversions given up by him in the first two series. It also effectively moves McCourty back deep to where he could have been shaded to Butler’s side on longer routes and moved Chung out of the slot later in the game and back into the box. The run defense would have still been suspect, but you’re at least not dismantling the secondary along with it.



There’s zero way Belichick thought that what he trotted out on defense was his best personnel considering how the Big Nickel regularly got teabagged during the regular season. He simply made a judgment call and relied on 12 to save his bacon, which he almost did. I don’t think he threw the game or sabotaged the team intentionally, but his decision definitely flushed the Super Bowl down the crapper. But then again, I thought you weren’t bringing up irrelevant past accomplishments to excuse the decision? Sure looks like you’re doing just that right here.



I’m not of the opinion that BB directly tried to tank the game. But he had to have known that he was putting lesser personnel on the field which constricted what he could do on that side of the ball. Effectively, he put another priority before what his ultimate goal should have been. He then stuck with it even after seeing his defense get tooled in the first half. It is what it is... a rare mistake by the GOAT. It just unfortunately came at the most inopportune time of the 2017 season.

But what caused BB to do this?

 

[Kontradiction]

But what caused BB to do this?

From what we know, something preparation-related that definitely wouldn’t warrant sitting him on the bench the entire game. Wasn’t bad enough to not dress him altogether while promoting someone else. That is, unless you want to explain the histories of veterans signed to this team mid-week during the season that went on to log snaps that Sunday.

 

[maust]

Absolutely not. This arguement will never end.

Which has nothing to do with the thread having become pointless and obnoxious because we still don't truthfully know anything more about the subject than we did when it started. Excluding the childlike bumping the last 4000 posts are either recovering the same ground regarding the decision or the same endless BS whining and arguments as the first 2000, it's a sad combination of toxic, self indulgent and/or moronic but what it isn't is healthy. It certainly doesn't speak well of us as championship caliber fans to collectively still be blathering the same foolishness ad nauseum almost 6 months after the fact.

 

[Kontradiction]

Which has nothing to do with the thread having become pointless and obnoxious because we still don't truthfully know anything more about the subject than we did when it started. Excluding the childlike bumping the last 4000 posts are either recovering the same ground regarding the decision or the same endless BS whining and arguments as the first 2000, it's a sad combination of toxic, self indulgent and/or moronic but what it isn't is healthy. It certainly doesn't speak well of us as championship caliber fans to collectively still be blathering the same foolishness ad nauseum almost 6 months after the fact.

Thread tools -> Ignore thread.

 

[maust]

Thread tools -> Ignore thread.

You're not Bill Belichick, you don't know what I should be doing.

 

[chasa]

Which has nothing to do with the thread having become pointless and obnoxious because we still don't truthfully know anything more about the subject than we did when it started. Excluding the childlike bumping the last 4000 posts are either recovering the same ground regarding the decision or the same endless BS whining and arguments as the first 2000, it's a sad combination of toxic, self indulgent and/or moronic but what it isn't is healthy. It certainly doesn't speak well of us as championship caliber fans to collectively still be blathering the same foolishness ad nauseum almost 6 months after the fact.

I disagree. The fact that by and large we have all(The ones that are frustrated by the situation) kept our gripes to one location, and have vocalized our anger is the epitome of healthy. We release our feelings about this topic in a place where only those that actively want to participate with feel any of the side effects.

What's not healthy are those that are not fans of the discussion, deciding that instead of ignoring it, which again is easy to do since we have exercised an extreme amount of restraint by keeping it almost 100% contained to one single thread, they choose to come in and complain.

Almost like a Vegan person going into a KFC to complain that they sell chicken. IDGAF, I'm in here to discuss something that positively or negatively I have feelings about, this is my place to do it. if i dont do it here, it might bleed into other areas.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're not Bill Belichick, you don't know what I should be doing.

Touché.

 

[Kontradiction]

I disagree. The fact that by and large we have all(The ones that are frustrated by the situation) kept our gripes to one location, and have vocalized our anger is the epitome of healthy. We release our feelings about this topic in a place where only those that actively want to participate with feel any of the side effects.

What's not healthy are those that are not fans of the discussion, deciding that instead of ignoring it, which again is easy to do since we have exercised an extreme amount of restraint by keeping it almost 100% contained to one single thread, they choose to come in and complain.

Almost like a Vegan person going into a KFC to complain that they sell chicken. IDGAF, I'm in here to discuss something that positively or negatively I have feelings about, this is my place to do it. if i dont do it here, it might bleed into other areas.

Seriously though. For everyone that wants to whine about this, the ignore thread feature is a phenomenal option. You just, like, click it and POOF! The thread is gone forever.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I can’t see where butler in place of Rowe would have made any difference. I can’t see where butler in the half dozen snaps that bademosi was the nickel corner would have made a difference.

3rd and 6

 

[TheRainMaker]

Butler got burned a lot. All things equal, and matchup dependent, Butler is a better corner (not against Jeffrey though) but given Butlers poor 2 weeks of preparation and head not being in the game plan the gap isn’t so big that these things wouldn’t close it.

And Rowe didn’t get burned? We’ve been down this path before but I’ll say it again, Rowe was one of the worst CB’s in the NFL last year.

Gilmore should’ve been on Jeffrey from the start and Butler could have taken on our Agohlor, who is a pedestrian wide receiver.

Still can’t believe that you guys really think that Butler couldn’t have done anything during the Super Bowl.