The 2018 Pats Defensive Line

[RayClay]

This is simply a matter of semantics.

We had a team that competed last year, with 53 men each week plus a Practice Squad. That is our definition of last year's TEAM, the one that we are trying to improve upon. You, instead, wish to consider that last year's team included Hightower And Valentine. I certainly wish that this was the case; we would have won the Super Bowl.

A different group will compete this year. In ADDITION to those who competed in 2017, we will have Hightower, Valentine, Rivers, Shelton, Clayborne [and perhaps Bentley or Sam].

At pass rusher, we are lacking if healthy.

 

[patsfaninpa]

I'm being realistic, not negative. I'm happy how we got a 1st, a big pro and signed Waddle to replace Solder. Turns out Garcia wasn't ready. Now, if Cannon is hurt again, we still have some depth.

Besides Clayborn and Flowers, who often doesn't line up at end, who are the sure things?

I didn't see a pass rush in the Super bowl, did you see a pass rush in the super bowl?

I didn't see a pass rush by either team in the Super Bowl. The Eagles made "one" play and
beat us. I guess, Hightower, Clayborn, Vanlentine and Shelton are incapable of making a play. Maybe, the improvement comes from within. A guy like D. Wise will back up Flowers and
Clayborn. Flowers won't have to slide inside with Shelton and Valentine.

I think you're selling Valentine and Wise short as good depth pieces. Impossible to
speculate on Rivers. But, we do develop good players whether this board believes it or not.

 

[RayClay]

I didn't see a pass rush by either team in the Super Bowl. The Eagles made "one" play and
beat us. I guess, Hightower, Clayborn, Vanlentine and Shelton are incapable of making a play. Maybe, the improvement comes from within. A guy like D. Wise will back up Flowers and
Clayborn. Flowers won't have to slide inside with Shelton and Valentine.

I think you're selling Valentine and Wise short as good depth pieces. Impossible to
speculate on Rivers. But, we do develop good players whether this board believes it or not.

Shelton and Valentine have very little to do with what flowers does. He is not a 300 lb tackle.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Shelton and Valentine have very little to do with what flowers does. He is not a 300 lb tackle.

I’ll bet ya right now. We have a Top 5 defense in points allowed.

Which is good enough to win given our offense.

 

[Ring 6]

They were both here last year, but one has never played a snap in the NFL. Is he equally an addition to two guys with consistent NFL experience? I consider them ifs. We won't know what we're adding until we see if rivers can play and fit our system.

Did we add another Trey Flowers, or a Geno Grissom?

I like Valentine, but he has been injured almost every year since mid-college.He's an "if he's healthy and if he continues to improve.

They are competing for jobs. We need net additions, to compete also. We lost Branch and Nink last year and our additions then were lacking, though guy was a good one.

They didn’t play last year and they could this year. Isn’t Edelman an addition to the offense of 2017?

 

[Patriot Missile]

Agreed on razor thin. What happened to Hageman?

Hageman decided to get a dui this morning so I would say he is a non option. Best of luck to him getting some help.

 

[mgteich]

I haven't been disappointed with the results since the arrival of the Kraft's. Have you?

Sure, there will be injuries. Some will come from those who were injured last year, and some will be new injuries. That isn't relevant to whether we make believe that we added only 2 to last year's AFC winner.

By the way, it's not just semantics. When you pray that everyone you were missing comes back healthy and has a great year, you are bound to be disappointed, which is why you always need to hit on some additions.

 

[Deus Irae]

I’ll bet ya right now. We have a Top 5 defense in points allowed.

Which is good enough to win given our offense.

It wasn't good enough to win last year.

 

[mgteich]

It wasn't good enough to win last year.

What's your point? We had a team that was was favored to win when we entered the playoffs. Do you expect our team to have a 100% chance of winning?

The point is that a top 5 defense is likely to be enough for us to be the top team in the AFC and have a good shot at winning the Super Bowl. But no team is 100%.

 

[Triumph]

Looking forward to Malcolm Mitchell coming back.

 

[Deus Irae]

What's your point?

The point should be obvious. It's not as if either my post, or the post I responded to, was a difficult one to understand.

We had a team that was was favored to win when we entered the playoffs. Do you expect our team to have a 100% chance of winning?

The point is that a top 5 defense is likely to be enough for us to be the top team in the AFC and have a good shot at winning the Super Bowl. But no team is 100%.

I've been trying to get this point across to people like yourself for years. Where the team's defense ranks in the regular season is not necessarily a true read on how good it is. BB&Co. can coach and scheme enough to make the defense plenty good enough against lesser teams, and against teams that aren't laser focused, in the regular season. Things are different in the playoffs, where the opponents tend to be better and more prepared, and the coaching edge is often no longer enough to cover up deficiencies. Just in the time of the last big SB run (2014 to the present)

• This last year's team put up 33 points in the Super Bowl, and that was still 8 points short of what was needed, because the defense couldn't get it done against a prepared opponent when it mattered most.
• The 2016 team had to go to overtime, and make the largest comeback in SB history, because Atlanta was able to put up 28 points even while going conservative at the end.
  
• In 2014, while on the way to winning the SB, the team allowed 31 to the Ravens, and 24 in two quarters against the Seahawks. It took a personnel change to save that team's bacon, and that was with a legitimately good Patriots defense.

 

[Triumph]

I’ll bet ya right now. We have a Top 5 defense in points allowed.

Which is good enough to win given our offense.

Top 5 in points allowed because some of the pitiful bums of the NFL were up for slaughter is nothing to hang your hat on.

The 2017 Pats defense were looking sharp wearing a toupee until the wind blew it off in the Super Bowl.

 

[RayClay]

I’ll bet ya right now. We have a Top 5 defense in points allowed.

Which is good enough to win given our offense.

I really don't care about their rank. I care if they have sufficient personnel to beat good teams when it counts.

 

[Ring 6]

At pass rusher, we are lacking if healthy.

Flowers
Hightower
Rivers
Clayborn
Wise
Van noy

There is some quality and depth there if healthy

 

[Ring 6]

I really don't care about their rank. I care if they have sufficient personnel to beat good teams when it counts.

That’s not really quantifiable. We (and everyone else) don’t generally beat every good team every time. And those games are t typically a matter of “good enough” they are a matter of making plays on that day.
We have been good enough to beat good teams for 17 years but that doesn’t mean we beat everyone of them every time.
Were we good enough because of the butler play in 14 and the Hightower play in 16 but not good enough because Shaq mason allowed a strip sack on what would have been the Sb winning drive?
People seem to want a roster that guarantees a championship and that’s just not possible. Games ar win and lost by making plays and at very slim margins.
We need to put together the best team we can (not collect talent but build a team) and have a chance to make plays and win a championship but there are no guarantees.
The fact that you can use a pessimistic doubtful tone about a team that has been good enough to go to 7 affcg, 4 sbs and win 2 sbs in the last 7 years astounds me.
People in this board act like that is under achieving.
I do not believe any team has ever been to 7/7 cccgs, more than 4 Sb in 7 years and only a few have won 2 sbs in 7 years, not to mention being a play away in 2 others.
I just can’t fathik how people post in this board like they are taking about an organization steeped in incompetence.

 

[Ring 6]

It wasn't good enough to win last year.

Being good enough to win and winning are not the same thing.

 

[Brick27]

Always love the “we need to get better at position X” approach only to have the critic not offer up any feasible solution when factoring in cap space, trades, signings, etc. It’s like people think you need/can be top 5 in the NFL at every position group, and that the salary cap isn’t a thing.

 

[mgteich]

OK, focus on the SB if you must. As an exercise, I would suggest folks list all the players available this year who didn't play in that game. Also, we might list everyone who played in a limited role because of injuries.

It is my position that we are likely to be a much better team on defense than the one that played last year. Do you disagree? And yes, I believe that a team that is in the top 5 teams in points allowed against the entire schedule is better than one that is 15th or 20th. No, being in the top 5 may not be enough in a particular game. An opposing offense might be much better against our defense than the entire schedule. Of course, the same is true about opposing defenses playing against our offense. In the end, it is better to be top 5 than 15th.
========
And yes, in the end, matchups may be more important, and how well each team is motivated on that day; and of course, on luck.

The point should be obvious. It's not as if either my post, or the post I responded to, was a difficult one to understand.



I've been trying to get this point across to people like yourself for years. Where the team's defense ranks in the regular season is not necessarily a true read on how good it is. BB&Co. can coach and scheme enough to make the defense plenty good enough against lesser teams, and against teams that aren't laser focused, in the regular season. Things are different in the playoffs, where the opponents tend to be better and more prepared, and the coaching edge is often no longer enough to cover up deficiencies. Just in the time of the last big SB run (2014 to the present)

• This last year's team put up 33 points in the Super Bowl, and that was still 8 points short of what was needed, because the defense couldn't get it done against a prepared opponent when it mattered most.
• The 2016 team had to go to overtime, and make the largest comeback in SB history, because Atlanta was able to put up 28 points even while going conservative at the end.
  
• In 2014, while on the way to winning the SB, the team allowed 31 to the Ravens, and 24 in two quarters against the Seahawks. It took a personnel change to save that team's bacon, and that was with a legitimately good Patriots defense.

 

[supafly]

At pass rusher, we are lacking if healthy.

Which is one reason why they may choose to keep Butler over Valentine, as one can argue the importance of having a more versatile player who is able to line up in different spots and provide something of an interior pass rush, as opposed to just another big bodied run stuffer.

Butler played in all 19 games, recording 4 total sacks, at least two which came in very important spots (AFCDG and AFCCG). Ultimately, I’d prefer keeping both, but it’s certainly possible that Valentine is not close to being the lock that most think he is.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Our OL collapsed at the end of 2015. A couple of additions, a return to health and improvement from within(Mason) and voila. A championship and another return to Super Bowl. It happens
to every team every year. Injuries hurt you. Quite often players return from injury and
succeed too. You're being way too negative IMO. You can have yours. But, you can't
throw out the blanket "We're doomed". We're not.

The Pats would've had a better chance of going to the Super Bowl in 2015 had the coaching staff not conceded those last two games of the season. That was so bizarre watching them uncharacteristically run the ball so many times in the first half and not even bother throwing on 3rd down. With that being said, I don't think they would've beat the Panthers as they seem to have the Pats number.

I'm being realistic, not negative. I'm happy how we got a 1st, a big pro and signed Waddle to replace Solder. Turns out Garcia wasn't ready. Now, if Cannon is hurt again, we still have some depth.

Are you forgetting about the trade of Trent Brown? Brown will easily be the starting LT on opening day.

I’ll bet ya right now. We have a Top 5 defense in points allowed.

Which is good enough to win given our offense.

Ugh. I'm so tired of this rebuttal. How did the Vikings "#1 ranked D" do in the NFC Title game? Rankings are so meaningless.