The 2018 Pats Defensive Line

[RayClay]

Loving the addition of Clayborn and Shelton. One battle I'm looking forward to watching is for the last one or two interior DL spots. I don't know if we can keep Butler and Valentine.

Breaking Down the New England Patriots Defensive Line - Last Word on Pro Football

Guy and Wise were the prettiest girls in ugly town last year, certainly nothing to get excited about. Also true of others who well in spots until the front seven collapsed.The author seems excites about the ghost of Derek Rivers, I don't know where he saw the rookie playing last year. Valentine is 24 years old and you'd think he was in a wheelchair being given the last rights. Guys get injured in football, newsflash. If healthy, he gives us a good 3 man tackle rotation, the Guy becomes versatile depth instead of a just another guy starter.

Bottom line, we need lots of competition due to health and talent issues, or a talent infusion. Again.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Agree.

I think the coaching staff was happy with Vinny V's 2016 season and like his size and ability to pass rush a little but if the guy can't stay on the field then there really isn't much they can do with him.

I like Butler. He needs more playing strength. Seemed he was pushed around too easily at times.

Your new Avatar is the best!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Your new Avatar is the best!

I love that movie.

 

[mgteich]

Absolutely agree. We were whistling past the graveyard about front 7 depth and quality 2017 and it cost us the Super Bowl IMO. With luck and total health, our 2 additions might make us adequate, or we could be almost the same.

2 additions you say

Let's count the additions to the team that did so poorly last year (top 10 in points allowed.

1) Shelton
2) Clayborne
3) Rivers
4) Valentine

 

[RayClay]

2 additions you say

Let's count the additions to the team that did so poorly last year (top 10 in points allowed.

1) Shelton
2) Clayborne
3) Rivers
4) Valentine

Right, two additions. A guy who has never played and was injured and a guy who was already on the team and was injured are not additions.

 

[RayClay]

2 additions you say

Let's count the additions to the team that did so poorly last year (top 10 in points allowed.

1) Shelton
2) Clayborne
3) Rivers
4) Valentine

How many points did they allow in the Super Bowl? How confident were we that we could stop the run and get pressure when Branch regressed that we had to use an inordinate amount of safeties, even in running situations, hoping they could help do those things?

We entered last season with our fingers crossed that we could stop the run and get pressure and we were horrible, then coaching helped an undermanned front seven do well for a while, then we collapsed when it counted.

If you don't get better, you get worse. Little difference this year to last, but hopefully some. Wishful thinking doesn't get it done. You can be stacked and destroyed by a few injuries or off years. When you expect every marginal pass rusher to have a great season, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

We need to try to get some pass rushers and do a better job than last year, because we aren't spending for a big name.

 

[supafly]

How many points did they allow in the Super Bowl? How confident were we that we could stop the run and get pressure when Branch regressed that we had to use an inordinate amount of safeties, even in running situations, hoping they could help do those things?

We entered last season with our fingers crossed that we could stop the run and get pressure and we were horrible, then coaching helped an undermanned front seven do well for a while, then we collapsed when it counted.

If you don't get better, you get worse. Little difference this year to last, but hopefully some. Wishful thinking doesn't get it done. You can be stacked and destroyed by a few injuries or off years. When you expect every marginal pass rusher to have a great season, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

We need to try to get some pass rushers and do a better job than last year, because we aren't spending for a big name.

I agree with everything that you say, although the return of key players like HT shouldn’t be overlooked. There seems to be better depth at DT, and the addition of Clayborne should help at DE. If someone like Rivers pans out, all the better. The expectations are high with him since he was our first selection in the draft last year. To me, that’s understandable, but you’re right that we can’t really count on him, either.

 

[RayClay]

I agree with everything that you say, although the return of key players like HT shouldn’t be overlooked. There seems to be better depth at DT, and the addition of Clayborne should help at DE. If someone like Rivers pans out, all the better. The expectations are high with him since he was our first selection in the draft last year. To me, that’s understandable, but you’re right that we can’t really count on him, either.

If Rivers is great, Valentine and Hightower are healthy, wise makes a leap etc. You get my point exactly. Let's assume some of those ifs are negative, where are we? I agree Shelton and Clayborn are net positives. If Shelton really replaces big Branch, Guy becomes a much more valuable chess piece. Lot more ifs at pass rusher, but if Clayborn hits, we just need depth there.

 

[mgteich]

You focus on the running game; fair enough.

Hightower, Shelton and Valentine should all help in the running game. They replace Harris, Branch and Francois.

How many points did they allow in the Super Bowl? How confident were we that we could stop the run and get pressure when Branch regressed that we had to use an inordinate amount of safeties, even in running situations, hoping they could help do those things?

We entered last season with our fingers crossed that we could stop the run and get pressure and we were horrible, then coaching helped an undermanned front seven do well for a while, then we collapsed when it counted.

If you don't get better, you get worse. Little difference this year to last, but hopefully some. Wishful thinking doesn't get it done. You can be stacked and destroyed by a few injuries or off years. When you expect every marginal pass rusher to have a great season, you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

We need to try to get some pass rushers and do a better job than last year, because we aren't spending for a big name.

 

[Joey007]

I think our DE depth chart looks alright. Plenty of young guys, with a vet presence in Clayborn that we lacked last year. That being said, I think we need to add one more vet though to fill out the depth.

I’d like to see Dumervil brought in. Had 6.5 sacks last year in SF.

 

[RayClay]

You focus on the running game; fair enough.

Hightower, Shelton and Valentine should all help in the running game. They replace Harris, Branch and Francois.

Not just the running game. If you aren't collapsing the pocket sometimes, your rushers have little chance. With Chandler gone, we won't have the draft pick or salary for a star at DE. Pressure needs to come from everywhere.

 

[TheRainMaker]

2 additions you say

Let's count the additions to the team that did so poorly last year top 10 in points allowed.

1) Shelton
2) Clayborne
3) Rivers
4) Valentine

The argument of being in the "top 10 in points allowed" is weak considering the fact that they gave up 41 in the Super Bowl to a team with a back up QB. Where a team is ranked defensively does not exactly mean they are good when it matters. What it really comes down to is how teams match up against other teams, the game plan and what difference makers they have, if any, on defense. The Pats had trouble all year stopping the run, getting consistent pressure on the QB and stopping RB's in the passing game (which cost them the Super Bowl).

Here's other examples of how defensive rankings are meaningless:

Just recently, the "#1 ranked defense" got embarrassed in the NFC Title game. Why is that? Did they just suddenly forget how to play defense?

As mentioned above, the Pats were "top 10 in points allowed" but gave up 41 in the Super Bowl?

The 2012 Ravens defense was pretty mediocre, had slow LB's and a mediocre secondary but somehow held the Pats offense to 13 points.

Both Giants teams had mediocre defenses but somehow slowed down the Pats offenses. Before stopping the Pats in '07, they slowed down a hot Cowboys team and pretty good Packers offense.

The 2001 Patriots defense was nothing special but the held the Rams to 17 points.

The 2001 Steelers defense was ranked #1 but could't stop a mediocre Pats offense.

For years the Steelers defense had the "#1" ranked defense and led the league in sacks but got embarrassed majority of the time they played the Pats.

The Pats need to stop the run early and get opposing teams to 3rd and 7+ so they don't check down to their RB's on 3rd and 5 and below which teams were doing on a routine basis. This D-line needs to have more consistent pressure and LB's need to stop forgetting about the RB's coming out of the backfield.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Not just the running game. If you aren't collapsing the pocket sometimes, your rushers have little chance. With Chandler gone, we won't have the draft pick or salary for a star at DE. Pressure needs to come from everywhere.

As much as Gillmore was a good signing, I'd rather spend the money on the D-line like a proven pass rusher. It's quite bizarre that every time the Pats lost in the playoffs or Super Bowl was because Brady got beat up by the D-line so you'd think they'd value a guy like Chandler Jones. It's too bad he gave the Pats a reason to ship him out by showing up shirtless to a police station and then was non existent in the 2013-14 AFC Title Game. Now he leads the NFL in sacks. Pretty dumb trade for the Cardinals though. You pay him all that money but you don't have much else talent on the team.

 

[Ring 6]

Right, two additions. A guy who has never played and was injured and a guy who was already on the team and was injured are not additions.

How are guys who weren’t playing last year not considered additions?
Also hightiwer is an addition as is Bentley and Sam.

 

[RayClay]

How are guys who weren’t playing last year not considered additions?
Also hightiwer is an addition as is Bentley and Sam.

They were both here last year, but one has never played a snap in the NFL. Is he equally an addition to two guys with consistent NFL experience? I consider them ifs. We won't know what we're adding until we see if rivers can play and fit our system.

Did we add another Trey Flowers, or a Geno Grissom?

I like Valentine, but he has been injured almost every year since mid-college.He's an "if he's healthy and if he continues to improve.

They are competing for jobs. We need net additions, to compete also. We lost Branch and Nink last year and our additions then were lacking, though guy was a good one.

 

[RayClay]

Having guys we counted on last year come back as question marks is not an addition. we had the rights to them already. sounds like a grade school math problem. Adding new players to the team.

 

[mgteich]

Having guys we counted on last year come back as question marks is not an addition. we had the rights to them already. sounds like a grade school math problem. Adding new players to the team.

This is simply a matter of semantics.

We had a team that competed last year, with 53 men each week plus a Practice Squad. That is our definition of last year's TEAM, the one that we are trying to improve upon. You, instead, wish to consider that last year's team included Hightower And Valentine. I certainly wish that this was the case; we would have won the Super Bowl.

A different group will compete this year. In ADDITION to those who competed in 2017, we will have Hightower, Valentine, Rivers, Shelton, Clayborne [and perhaps Bentley or Sam].

 

[RayClay]

This is simply a matter of semantics.

We had a team that competed last year, with 53 men each week plus a Practice Squad. That is our definition of last year's TEAM, the one that we are trying to improve upon. You, instead, wish to consider that last year's team included Hightower And Valentine. I certainly wish that this was the case; we would have won the Super Bowl.

A different group will compete this year. In ADDITION to those who competed in 2017, we will have Hightower, Valentine, Rivers, Shelton, Clayborne [and perhaps Bentley or Sam].

We had a team last year that collapsed on D in the Super Bowl. We lost Ninko. We lost Branch [I'm, sure] Some players got injured. Van Noy was injured a lot but i don't count the same Va Noy as an addition.

I like our two additions. I've got my fingers crossed everyone is healthy. I would like more additions. If everyone is healthy, our LB draft picks can contribute, Rivers [unknown, same as a draft pick] contributes. I would like to see more additions, or competition from players not already on the roster, to see if they can push or add to wise, Lee etc.

Lots of ifs. Either spend or trade [not recommended] or add some solid additions to the competition IMO

By the way, it's not just semantics. When you pray that everyone you were missing comes back healthy and has a great year, you are bound to be disappointed, which is why you always need to hit on some additions.

 

[patsfaninpa]

We had a team last year that collapsed on D in the Super Bowl.

By the way, it's not just semantics. When you pray that everyone you were missing comes back healthy and has a great year, you are bound to be disappointed, which is why you always need to hit on some additions.

Our OL collapsed at the end of 2015. A couple of additions, a return to health and improvement from within(Mason) and voila. A championship and another return to Super Bowl. It happens
to every team every year. Injuries hurt you. Quite often players return from injury and
succeed too. You're being way too negative IMO. You can have yours. But, you can't
throw out the blanket "We're doomed". We're not.

 

[RayClay]

Our OL collapsed at the end of 2015. A couple of additions, a return to health and improvement from within(Mason) and voila. A championship and another return to Super Bowl. It happens
to every team every year. Injuries hurt you. Quite often players return from injury and
succeed too. You're being way too negative IMO. You can have yours. But, you can't
throw out the blanket "We're doomed". We're not.

I'm being realistic, not negative. I'm happy how we got a 1st, a big pro and signed Waddle to replace Solder. Turns out Garcia wasn't ready. Now, if Cannon is hurt again, we still have some depth.

Besides Clayborn and Flowers, who often doesn't line up at end, who are the sure things?

I didn't see a pass rush in the Super bowl, did you see a pass rush in the super bowl?