How Good Are Our Youngsters In The Front Seven?

[TheRainMaker]

The Bears simply outbid the Pats for Hicks. Easley had very little to do with it.

You're right. Easly was released the same offseason as Hicks departed for the Bears. However, Hicks's contract from the Bears was only a 2 year $10M which isn't very much.

 

[maineman209]

You're right. Easly was released the same offseason as Hicks departed for the Bears. However, Hicks's contract from the Bears was only a 2 year $10M which isn't very much.

Apparently, it was more than the Pats thought Hicks was worth to them in their schemes. They drafted Malcolm Brown that year, and he's turned out pretty well.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Apparently, it was more than the Pats thought Hicks was worth to them in their schemes. They drafted Malcolm Brown that year, and he's turned out pretty well.

I think most, if not all people would agree they'd rather have Akiem Hicks than Malcolm Brown. I think the Saints are kicking themselves as well for trading him in the first place for peanuts.

 

[maineman209]

I think most, if not all people would agree they'd rather have Akiem Hicks than Malcolm Brown. I think the Saints are kicking themselves as well for trading him in the first place for peanuts.

I have no idea what "most, if not all people" would agree on. And I really don't give a flying f**k. I don't rely on survey results to form my opinions.

Hicks was a fairly exciting player to watch with the Pats in an otherwise depressing season. However, I think that Brown has been solid, reliable, and consistent playing a significantly different role in the Pats' hybrid schemes than Hicks seems suited for.

Brown hits the Pats' 2018 cap for $2.4M and about $7M in 2019, if the pick up his 5th-year option. Meanwhile, Hicks will hit the Bears' cap for $9.6M in 2018 and $10.1M in 2019. So, why would anyone prefer the far more expensive Hicks - who didn't fit the scheme well - to Brown, who has?

I also have no idea whether or not the Saints are "kicking themselves" about Hicks, but I seriously doubt it. Perhaps some of their less football-savvy fans are.

Hicks had been very good for them in 2013-2014 playing DE in Rob Ryan's 3-4, but clearly didn't fit as well in 2015 when they switched to Dennis Allen's 4-3. The Saints' offense desperately needed a blocking TE at the time and the Pats had an unusual - and temporary - surplus at the time. And then, the Saints defense was notably improved in 2017, after they'd acquired the players who fit the scheme and shed those who didn't. I just can't imagine the Saints being inconsolably remorseful under the circumstances.

Meanwhile, Hicks has returned to his previous productivity in Chicago the past two seasons playing DE in Fangio's 3-4. So, y'know, all's well that ends well.

 

[patsfaninpa]

We are really set up well at Dt if everybody is healthy. Shelton, brown, valentine, guy and maybe butler form the strongest position on our team.

De - seems average to me. Flowers, Clayborn, wise and maybe butler seem solid. But we really need an edge setter and/or pure pass rusher.

Linebacker - Hightower and van noy are solid. All 4 other linebacker positions could use upgrading.

I'm hoping for a vet in a draft day trade at lb, then a lb and edge fairly early in the draft. I haven't given up on Marquis Flowers. Athletically, he fits the bill. His first off-season with us.
He can run and get to the qb. Not strong at the point of attack. But, in a sub-package that's
not a deal-breaker.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I have no idea what "most, if not all people" would agree on. And I really don't give a flying f**k. I don't rely on survey results to form my opinions..

It's anybody with a brain.

Brown hits the Pats' 2018 cap for $2.4M and about $7M in 2019, if the pick up his 5th-year option. Meanwhile, Hicks will hit the Bears' cap for $9.6M in 2018 and $10.1M in 2019. So, why would anyone prefer the far more expensive Hicks - who didn't fit the scheme well - to Brown, who has?.

I was referring to his initial contract he received from the Bears. The Pats could've had him for an additional two years at a low price. $5M per year isn't very much. It's very hard to believe you could say with a straight face you'd rather have Brown over Hicks.

I also have no idea whether or not the Saints are "kicking themselves" about Hicks, but I seriously doubt it. Perhaps some of their less football-savvy fans are..

You must not be familiar with how pathetic the Saints D has been for quite some time. He was actually one of the only promising young players on that side of the ball and they let him go for a "blocking TE". Hicks said when he was with the Saints that they felt he couldn't rush the passer at all and was only there to be a run stuffing tackle. They mismanaged him and many other players they had drafted before him.

Hicks had been very good for them in 2013-2014 playing DE in Rob Ryan's 3-4, but clearly didn't fit as well in 2015 when they switched to Dennis Allen's 4-3. The Saints' offense desperately needed a blocking TE at the time and the Pats had an unusual - and temporary - surplus at the time. And then, the Saints defense was notably improved in 2017, after they'd acquired the players who fit the scheme and shed those who didn't. I just can't imagine the Saints being inconsolably remorseful under the circumstances..

See above. He was one of the only players on that D that had potential but they held him back even under Ryan as they thought he wasn't an effective pass rusher. Won't shock me if this season is an aberration for their defensive "improvement".

Meanwhile, Hicks has returned to his previous productivity in Chicago the past two seasons playing DE in Fangio's 3-4. So, y'know, all's well that ends well.

Like NE, he just went to a team that saw his potential.

 

[maineman209]

It's anybody with a brain.

I was referring to his initial contract he received from the Bears. The Pats could've had him for an additional two years at a low price. $5M per year isn't very much. It's very hard to believe you could say with a straight face you'd rather have Brown over Hicks.

You must not be familiar with how pathetic the Saints D has been for quite some time. He was actually one of the only promising young players on that side of the ball and they let him go for a "blocking TE". Hicks said when he was with the Saints that they felt he couldn't rush the passer at all and was only there to be a run stuffing tackle. They mismanaged him and many other players they had drafted before him.

See above. He was one of the only players on that D that had potential but they held him back even under Ryan as they thought he wasn't an effective pass rusher. Won't shock me if this season is an aberration for their defensive "improvement".

Like NE, he just went to a team that saw his potential.

I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your arrogant and ignorant bullsh*t. The start of your above response gets a big GFY and buh-bye, a**h**e.

 

[captain stone]

Apparently, it was more than the Pats thought Hicks was worth to them in their schemes.

They drafted Malcolm Brown that year, and he's turned out pretty well.

Then the Pats thought wrong (what a shock).

They also traded for Hicks AFTER they had already drafted Malcolm Brown.

Too bad that they had to pay Uncle Alan Branch the previous off-season; otherwise, that money could've been used to keep Hicks the following off-season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Then the Pats thought wrong (what a shock).

They also traded for Hicks AFTER they had already drafted Malcolm Brown.

Too bad that they had to pay Uncle Alan Branch the previous off-season; otherwise, that money could've been used to keep Hicks the following off-season.

The problem was the Patriots system of spreading out the money on more low end signings as opposed to concentrating the money in fewer higher end signings. Sometimes the Patriots system is a plus, and sometimes it's a minus. This was a time where the Patriots system was a minus.

 

[mgteich]

The problem was the Patriots system of spreading out the money on more low end signings as opposed to concentrating the money in fewer higher end signings. Sometimes the Patriots system is a plus, and sometimes it's a minus. This was a time where the Patriots system was a minus.

As a aside, currently have over 50% of their cap in their top 10 players.

 

[Deus Irae]

As a aside, currently have over 50% of their cap in their top 10 players.

Yeah, we're really looking at a multi tiered system which is something like (Not saying exactly)

Tier 1: Legit "high end" players (Brady, Gronk, etc...)
Tier 2: Medium range players who are getting commensurate value at the next level (Cooks on rookie deal, Harmon, etc...)
Tier 3: Lower range players who are not taking up huge dollars but aren't scraping along (Gillislee, Jason McCourty)
Tier 4: Financial scrapers, getting bottom of the pile numbers (minimum salary guys, guys like Develin, etc...)


Historically, BB will look to spend the money by spreading it out on the lower tiers (2-3 Tier 4 players instead of 1-2 Tier 3 players, and so on), going for the idea of multiple opportunities to hit, as he has frequently done with his draft day trade downs and trade outs. It works nicely, when it works. When it misses, and it's an area of weakness (Hicks), it stands out, which you'd expect in any system with the limitations/parameters of modern U.S. team sport salary systems.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I'm not even going to bother to address the rest of your arrogant and ignorant bullsh*t. The start of your above response gets a big GFY and buh-bye, a**h**e.

You got a response like that because of the way you started out your response to me.

No need to respond. Most of it was facts that came right out of Akiem Ayers mouth and the Saints D has been bad for years. Historically bad to be exact. Thanks for playing though.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Then the Pats thought wrong (what a shock).

They also traded for Hicks AFTER they had already drafted Malcolm Brown.

Too bad that they had to pay Uncle Alan Branch the previous off-season; otherwise, that money could've been used to keep Hicks the following off-season.

I wouldn't say they traded for him because they were worried about Brown's development but rather to boost the inside pass rush as they didn't rely on Easly who of course ended up on IR for the second straight season. Easily joined Laurance Maroney as the only two Pats that had a hit TV show "MASH" (Easily) and "Dancing With The Stars" (Maroney). Hicks was solid against the run as well.

The problem was the Patriots system of spreading out the money on more low end signings as opposed to concentrating the money in fewer higher end signings. Sometimes the Patriots system is a plus, and sometimes it's a minus. This was a time where the Patriots system was a minus.

Given that they had both Chandler Jones and Akien Hicks, do you think they should have kept one or the other or are you okay that they let one walk and traded the other?

 

[maineman209]

Then the Pats thought wrong (what a shock).

Not necessarily.

Hicks has been great as a DE in both Ryan's and Fangio's versions of a straight 3-4. He wasn't a fit in Allen's 4-3 in NOL, and he wouldn't necessarily be a good long term fit in the Pats' hybrid scheme (and maybe not a fit at all), where he'd likely be required to play more of an interior DL role as a DT.

It's possible that the Pats offered him what they thought he'd be worth in that role and that the Bears offered him more to play a different role in a different scheme. It's equally possible that Hicks himself preferred the 3-4 DE role over the role that the Pats would have him in and would've signed with a 3-4 team regardless. Chris Long pre-emptively turned down the Pats last spring because he preferred to play a different role in a different scheme (which is too bad, since he was excellent in the role that Pats had him playing). RJF did basically the same thing this spring, perhaps for similar reasons.

In any case, Brown has primarily played an "undertackle" DT role in the Pats scheme. It's not a particularly dynamic role and the assignments don't typically generate a lot of splash plays (which perhaps leads fans to believe that Brown is just not very good). And the undertackle role is most effective when working in tandem with a solid NT type (which the Pats didn't have last season). Brown has been a good fit for that role (a better fit than Hicks, perhaps) and has been very reliable and consistent in it.

But it's a completely different role from the far more dynamic role as a DE in the Ryan/Fangio version of the 3-4 - a role in which Hicks very apparently excels. For that reason, Hicks is worth more money in that role than he would be if playing the undertackle-DT role.

I understand that a lot of people feel that Hicks is simply a "better player"compared to Brown, but it's a little like comparing Gronk to Shaq Mason. While Gronk may be "better" at playing TE than Mason is at RG, the roles aren't directly interchangeable (though they do overlap occasionally on pulls and traps).

The bottom line for me is that it doesn't matter if Brown is the "best" player compared to Hicks in a general sense. He's been the right player (at the right cap cost) for the role he's been playing.

 

[Triumph]

Actually, Brown and Shelton are both under contract through 2019, and both have fifth-year options pending. Miguel estimates those options will be right around $7M each (because both were drafted outside the top ten).

Picking up those options would guarantee the Pats to have three consecutive seasons of that tandem, the most expensive of which would be 2020 at a cost of around $14M for the pair. That may look like a steal for the Pats with the cap likely to be close to $200M at that point.

Technically he is not under contract in 2019 unless the Pats act.

Why pick up Browns option for mediocre play? At this point I would let him leave and come back with a deal to match if it was cheap enough.

 

[BTTA]

Yeah, we're really looking at a multi tiered system which is something like (Not saying exactly)

Tier 1: Legit "high end" players (Brady, Gronk, etc...)
Tier 2: Medium range players who are getting commensurate value at the next level (Cooks on rookie deal, Harmon, etc...)
Tier 3: Lower range players who are not taking up huge dollars but aren't scraping along (Gillislee, Jason McCourty)
Tier 4: Financial scrapers, getting bottom of the pile numbers (minimum salary guys, guys like Develin, etc...)

That's a nice first draft of a simple taxonomy that, if adopted around here, could go long way toward higher quality conversation.

 

[captain stone]

Not necessarily.

Hicks has been great as a DE in both Ryan's and Fangio's versions of a straight 3-4. He wasn't a fit in Allen's 4-3 in NOL, and he wouldn't necessarily be a good long term fit in the Pats' hybrid scheme (and maybe not a fit at all), where he'd likely be required to play more of an interior DL role as a DT.

It's possible that the Pats offered him what they thought he'd be worth in that role and that the Bears offered him more to play a different role in a different scheme. It's equally possible that Hicks himself preferred the 3-4 DE role over the role that the Pats would have him in and would've signed with a 3-4 team regardless. Chris Long pre-emptively turned down the Pats last spring because he preferred to play a different role in a different scheme (which is too bad, since he was excellent in the role that Pats had him playing). RJF did basically the same thing this spring, perhaps for similar reasons.

In any case, Brown has primarily played an "undertackle" DT role in the Pats scheme. It's not a particularly dynamic role and the assignments don't typically generate a lot of splash plays (which perhaps leads fans to believe that Brown is just not very good). And the undertackle role is most effective when working in tandem with a solid NT type (which the Pats didn't have last season). Brown has been a good fit for that role (a better fit than Hicks, perhaps) and has been very reliable and consistent in it.

But it's a completely different role from the far more dynamic role as a DE in the Ryan/Fangio version of the 3-4 - a role in which Hicks very apparently excels. For that reason, Hicks is worth more money in that role than he would be if playing the undertackle-DT role.

I understand that a lot of people feel that Hicks is simply a "better player"compared to Brown, but it's a little like comparing Gronk to Shaq Mason. While Gronk may be "better" at playing TE than Mason is at RG, the roles aren't directly interchangeable (though they do overlap occasionally on pulls and traps).

The bottom line for me is that it doesn't matter if Brown is the "best" player compared to Hicks in a general sense. He's been the right player (at the right cap cost) for the role he's been playing.

For me, this isn't an Either Malcolm Brown Or Akeem Hicks situation. I wanted Brown AND Hicks, and I think they could've kicked ass together, certainly better than Brown and whoever was next to him did this past season. I can at least take consolation knowing that there was no way that Hicks was getting paid here what da Bears will be paying him there, so I will not be lamenting what Hicks could accomplish here this coming season...though I will miss another 2019 comp pick coming our way.

 

[maineman209]

certainly better than Brown and whoever was next to him did this past season.

Was supposed to be Brown + Branch, or Brown + Valentine.

It ended up being Brown + Guy, or Brown + Butler, or Brown alone, even. Neither Guy nor Butler are suited for the role they were forced to play due to Valentine's injury and Branch's faceplant.

Brown + Shelton, or Brown + Valentine should be worlds better.

Pray for their health.

 

[mgteich]

Having 3 biggies available instead of 1 is a very big deal; and we still have Guy and Butler.

Was supposed to be Brown + Branch, or Brown + Valentine.

It ended up being Brown + Guy, or Brown + Butler, or Brown alone, even. Neither Guy nor Butler are suited for the role they were forced to play due to Valentine's injury and Branch's faceplant.

Brown + Shelton, or Brown + Valentine should be worlds better.

Pray for their health.