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How Good Are Our Youngsters In The Front Seven?

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We are really set up well at Dt if everybody is healthy. Shelton, brown, valentine, guy and maybe butler form the strongest position on our team.

De - seems average to me. Flowers, Clayborn, wise and maybe butler seem solid. But we really need an edge setter and/or pure pass rusher.

Linebacker - Hightower and van noy are solid. All 4 other linebacker positions could use upgrading.

As far as I'm concerned DEs cannot meaningfully be distinguished from DTs. I think calling all of them "defensive linemen" is a more pragmatic way of describing those players, but I digress.

You seem to have forgotten Rivers, Lee, and possibly Davis (although his talent and potential role on the team is less clear to me). I'd like to think Rivers in a pass-rush specific role, and Lee with an offseason with the team could result in meaningful contributions from those guys.
 
Oh we are doing that draft pick thing in place of analysis?
As I said we will see where the talent level goes but that is the mold.

Well, I think looking at draft position is relevant as it is a product of productivity and/or talent. Generally speaking, a 3rd overall pick is considerably more talented and/or productive than a player drafted where Wise was. It goes without saying that high picks are not guaranteed to be successful, nor are later picks doomed to failure, but it's a relevant variable to a certain extent when evaluating a particular player's future prospects, and when comparing said player to former players.

I think it goes without saying that McGinest was considerably more productive than Wise, and although Wise may have similar athleticism on paper, McGinest appeared considerably more powerful and explosive on the field. Wise flashed but he looked a bit out of control at times and he didn't seem to be able to consistently harness his athleticism. At times he seemed a bit sloppy, for lack of a better term, in his body control and use of leverage; I noticed him flailing his body a lot, and didn't seem to consistently anchor himself, his 'base' seemed a bit weak. That's not to say he won't improve but as of now my expectations are tempered and I see him as a role player (which will likely be perfectly fine, assuming others produce). If he develops over the offseason and his on-field performance improves, allowing him to take on a bigger role, all the better.
 
I don’t know, but I sure hope so. There is a lot of youth in that front 7. I think they are pretty good but I won’t be shocked if Belichick drafts a big DL in the first. I’m not talking about Vea or Settle, but more like Hurst or Harrison. Edge is also a strong possibility.
 
Well, I think looking at draft position is relevant as it is a product of productivity and/or talent. Generally speaking, a 3rd overall pick is considerably more talented and/or productive than a player drafted where Wise was. It goes without saying that high picks are not guaranteed to be successful, nor are later picks doomed to failure, but it's a relevant variable to a certain extent when evaluating a particular player's future prospects, and when comparing said player to former players.

I think it goes without saying that McGinest was considerably more productive than Wise, and although Wise may have similar athleticism on paper, McGinest appeared considerably more powerful and explosive on the field. Wise flashed but he looked a bit out of control at times and he didn't seem to be able to consistently harness his athleticism. At times he seemed a bit sloppy, for lack of a better term, in his body control and use of leverage; I noticed him flailing his body a lot, and didn't seem to consistently anchor himself, his 'base' seemed a bit weak. That's not to say he won't improve but as of now my expectations are tempered and I see him as a role player (which will likely be perfectly fine, assuming others produce). If he develops over the offseason and his on-field performance improves, allowing him to take on a bigger role, all the better.

Pre-draft measurables:

McGinest (6044/255):
4.72/40 .. 1.60/10yd .. 22 reps .. 34.5 vert .. 126 long .. 4.19 ss

Wise (6052/274):
4.92/40 .. 1.70/10yd .. 22 reps .. 33.0 vert .. 124 long .. 4.84 ss

McGinest played much of his career as an OLB/DE.

Wise's role in his rookie season was more DE/DT.

Not entirely sure why anyone is attempting to compare the two.
 
I don’t know, but I sure hope so. There is a lot of youth in that front 7. I think they are pretty good but I won’t be shocked if Belichick drafts a big DL in the first. I’m not talking about Vea or Settle, but more like Hurst or Harrison. Edge is also a strong possibility.

On the Pats roster:

Shelton - 6021/343
Valentine - 6034/329
Brown - 6023/320
Guy - 6041/305
Butler - 6037/280
....
Hurst - 6012/292
"Harrison"?
 
On the Pats roster:

Shelton - 6021/343
Valentine - 6034/329
Brown - 6023/320
Guy - 6041/305
Butler - 6037/280
....
Hurst - 6012/292
"Harrison"?


I knew it right after I posted it but I’m busy. “Harrison” is Harrison Philips.

Brown is UFA after this season, Shelton the season after that. Belichick usually uses 1st round picks on the athletes you can’t get later. DL, TE, Edge, LT. Looking at this draft in the first round there’s a good chance there will be a high quality DL available when they pick, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go that way.
 
Since we almost always play only 2 LB's, I guess that means that you think that Hightower and Van Noy are pretty bad, and certainly that the signing of Flowers was an error.


We play 2 LBs because the unit is bad
 
Since we almost always play only 2 LB's, I guess that means that you think that Hightower and Van Noy are pretty bad, and certainly that the signing of Flowers was an error.

I think Elandon Roberts played about 50% of the snaps. "Almost always" would mean 80%+, or even 90%+, to me which can't be true if Elandon Roberts is playing 50% of the snaps.

I agree with IllegalContact - the LB group is pretty bad. BIG dropoff after Hightower and KVN, and you have to expect 1 or both will get injured.

I love how BB uses lower level 1 dimensional guys situationally and gets the most out of them but I love multi-dimensional guys even more.

Willie McGinest (lb) and Vince Wilfork (dl) are not walking through that door but if they did we would be all set.
 

Right....let’s just keep playing the nickel while the entire league racks up 5ypc

Do you think a team should play nickel on 1st down most of the time?

Feel free to skulk off and put me on ignore, but you’re the one with the hair brained idea
 
I knew it right after I posted it but I’m busy. “Harrison” is Harrison Philips.

Brown is UFA after this season, Shelton the season after that. Belichick usually uses 1st round picks on the athletes you can’t get later. DL, TE, Edge, LT. Looking at this draft in the first round there’s a good chance there will be a high quality DL available when they pick, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him go that way.

Actually, Brown and Shelton are both under contract through 2019, and both have fifth-year options pending. Miguel estimates those options will be right around $7M each (because both were drafted outside the top ten).

Picking up those options would guarantee the Pats to have three consecutive seasons of that tandem, the most expensive of which would be 2020 at a cost of around $14M for the pair. That may look like a steal for the Pats with the cap likely to be close to $200M at that point.
 
Pre-draft measurables:

McGinest (6044/255):
4.72/40 .. 1.60/10yd .. 22 reps .. 34.5 vert .. 126 long .. 4.19 ss

Wise (6052/274):
4.92/40 .. 1.70/10yd .. 22 reps .. 33.0 vert .. 124 long .. 4.84 ss

McGinest played much of his career as an OLB/DE.

Wise's role in his rookie season was more DE/DT.

Not entirely sure why anyone is attempting to compare the two.
Mcginest played in the 270 range most of his career. If he entered the league in 2017 as a patriot he would be a de who moves inside on passing downs just like wise.
 
Right....let’s just keep playing the nickel while the entire league racks up 5ypc

Do you think a team should play nickel on 1st down most of the time?

Feel free to skulk off and put me on ignore, but you’re the one with the hair brained idea
We have played nickel base for years and defended the run very well aside from last year.
It’s not Mgteich’s idea it’s bill belichicks.
 
I think Elandon Roberts played about 50% of the snaps. "Almost always" would mean 80%+, or even 90%+, to me which can't be true if Elandon Roberts is playing 50% of the snaps.

I agree with IllegalContact - the LB group is pretty bad. BIG dropoff after Hightower and KVN, and you have to expect 1 or both will get injured.

I love how BB uses lower level 1 dimensional guys situationally and gets the most out of them but I love multi-dimensional guys even more.

Willie McGinest (lb) and Vince Wilfork (dl) are not walking through that door but if they did we would be all set.
Roberts was one of the 2 a d we did play 2 LBs 80-90% of the time.
 
Generally, I would be fine with the following list of youngsters being added to our front seven. We even have some young developing talent already there in Wise and Valentine.

ADD FOUR: Butler, Lee, Rivers, and Langi (we also have Roberts and Grisby)

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers
===============
IMHO, this is a very solid 14. It is NOT terrible to have a Langi as your #13/#14, and expected to always be inactive; ditto for Lee.

I agree MG, looking good from the abstract POV (how injuries affect it is always the wildcard). However, and I know you know this, a collection of good puzzle pieces doesn't necessarily fit together into a good picture. How these guys compliment each other (cue the joke "hey, your hair looks great today") and how that translates to the field is always the big mystery (how their coached-schemed-utilized obviously is a critical part).

Looking at this group -- and knowing the coaching staff -- I'd be shocked if by midseason they are not forcing lots of third downs. Now can they finish the job and get off the field on third down at a successful rate? Can they make the RZ a brick wall? The review of that movie won't be printed until December .
 
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