How Good Are Our Youngsters In The Front Seven?

[mgteich]

Generally, I would be fine with the following list of youngsters being added to our front seven. We even have some young developing talent already there in Wise and Valentine.

ADD FOUR: Butler, Lee, Rivers, and Langi (we also have Roberts and Grisby)

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers
===============
IMHO, this is a very solid 14. It is NOT terrible to have a Langi as your #13/#14, and expected to always be inactive; ditto for Lee.

 

[Jimke]

Generally, I would be fine with the following list of youngsters being added to our front seven. We even have some young developing talent already there in Wise and Valentine.

ADD FOUR: Butler, Lee, Rivers, and Langi (we also have Roberts and Grisby)

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers
===============
IMHO, this is a very solid 14. It is NOT terrible to have a Langi as your #14, and expected to always inactive; ditto for Lee.

I haven't seen Keionta Davis mentioned. He was rated similar to Rivers and
Wise, and sat out the season due to a bulging disc in his neck. Rest supposedly
cures this kind of injury.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Players under 25 of significance:

Considering he missed a season, Flowers career production - sacks, hits & hurries under the age of 25 speak for themselves. He’s a tier II pro bowl caliber player that will probably never get there because he isn’t a sack guy.

Most people on the forum agree Malcom Brown is an above average DT but not much more.

Shelton TBD. We are hoping for a great 1 tech DT. I have hopes that he’ll deliver.

Valentine TBD. Just needs more reps. We don't really know what he is at this point.

Adam Butler found an NFL career IMO as a sub-rushing DT. He’s pretty much the only DT on our roster that can generate a pass rush & I think he’ll be a 30-40% snap player.

Wise & Rivers TBD. Wise flashed & dipped at points his rookie season. Rivers showed his ability in preseason week 1 before injury. Hopefully one pans out.

LB: N/A (I don't see much in Langi). One draftee needs to be added with athleticism that can bolster a group lacking in it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do I feel about the young talent? Better than last year but the group could really use someone with high end talent to play with Flowers & Hightower. Whether that's a LB or Landry/Davenport fall in the draft they would be ideal.

 

[RayClay]

Generally, I would be fine with the following list of youngsters being added to our front seven. We even have some young developing talent already there in Wise and Valentine.

ADD FOUR: Butler, Lee, Rivers, and Langi (we also have Roberts and Grisby)

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers
===============
IMHO, this is a very solid 14. It is NOT terrible to have a Langi as your #14, and expected to always inactive; ditto for Lee.

Good enough to not buy a house yet for the 2nd tier. I agree with your line of demarcation.

 

[Jimke]

Players under 25 of significance:

Considering he missed a season, Flowers career production - sacks, hits & hurries under the age of 25 speak for themselves. He’s a tier II pro bowl caliber player that will probably never get there because he isn’t a sack guy.

Most people on the forum agree Malcom Brown is an above average DT but not much more.

Shelton TBD. We are hoping for a great 1 tech DT. I have hopes that he’ll deliver.

Valentine TBD. Just needs more reps. We don't really know what he is at this point.

Adam Butler found an NFL career IMO as a sub-rushing DT. He’s pretty much the only DT on our roster that can generate a pass rush & I think he’ll be a 30-40% snap player.
Wise may show a lot of improvement in year two. Flowers was injured most of year one and ended up on IR.
Wise & Rivers TBD. Wise flashed & dipped at points his rookie season. Rivers showed his ability in preseason week 1 before injury. Hopefully one pans out.

LB: N/A (I don't see much in Langi). One draftee needs to be added with athleticism that can bolster a group lacking in it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do I feel about the young talent? Better than last year but the group could really use someone with high end talent to play with Flowers & Hightower. Whether that's a LB or Landry/Davenport fall in the draft they would be ideal.

 

[BTTA]

Good thread - one of the most poignant off season questions.
The roster looks fine. The only way to improve the DL would be with a great player on the end.
And, once again, LB is very vulnerable to Hightower's health. Take him out again, and it looks very different.

 

[cstjohn17]

By the end of the year Patricia had the defense playing well, something like 14 PPG after week 4 then the Superbowl happened...

Basically I see the same design, accumulate a bunch of JAGS and make them solid (top 10 for PPG) combine with a top 5 offense and better than average special teams = win the division, compete for AFC title and hope they play better than the opponent in the Superbowl.

Back to the original question, I mostly see JAGs some who may have potential but no real play makers.

 

[Ring 6]

Generally, I would be fine with the following list of youngsters being added to our front seven. We even have some young developing talent already there in Wise and Valentine.

ADD FOUR: Butler, Lee, Rivers, and Langi (we also have Roberts and Grisby)

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers
===============
IMHO, this is a very solid 14. It is NOT terrible to have a Langi as your #14, and expected to always inactive; ditto for Lee.

Butler could go either way, that’s what happens. Lee is a longshot. Rivers has done nothing. Langi could get in the field before difference what could be a career altering injury.
At this point these are just names no better or worse than the bottom of every teams roster. Certainly no reason to get excited at this stage.
I would prefer to see a DE added that would be better than our currently 2nd best 3rd down edge rusher whoever you feel that may be and a LB who can play (effectively) if ht or vn go down. I don’t see one on the roster but it’s a tiugg spot to fill because you need a guy who mostly sits when they are healthy and plays well if he has to step in. A Harris that turns out to not be over the hill seems like the answer.

 

[Wozzy]

I haven't seen Keionta Davis mentioned. He was rated similar to Rivers and
Wise, and sat out the season due to a bulging disc in his neck. Rest supposedly
cures this kind of injury.

This ^

Davis has the athleticism and strength to impress if healthy. Though I would compare him more toward a Trey Flowers type end.

Butler and wise don't impress me, seem more like role players who regressed as the regular season wore on, were so so against the run and in contain. We should draft some speed at LB's and End.

 

[maineman209]

This ^

Davis has the athleticism and strength to impress if healthy. Though I would compare him more toward a Trey Flowers type end.

Butler and wise don't impress me, seem more like role players who regressed as the regular season wore on, were so so against the run and in contain. We should draft some speed at LB's and End.

Agree about Davis being a reasonable comp for Trey Flowers.

However, both Wise (543) and Butler (473) played way more snaps in 2017 than might otherwise be expected from rookies who were likely intended to be eased into the mix in reserve roles (with Nink not retired and Valentine/Branch healthy and active). It's not really a shock that their play tailed off a bit at the end of the season. It often happens with rookies who get no real break between the end of their college careers and their first seasons in the NFL.

Also, Butler and Wise have more length and a bit more heft than the Davis/Flowers type of DE. Wise and Butler are maybe closer to the 3-4 DE template than to the 4-3 DE template and, thus, probably shouldn't be expected to perform the same role as Flowers/Davis types.

In 2018, with Valentine back and Shelton replacing the ineffectual 2017 version of Branch, and with Clayborn in the mix and Lee potentially developing with a full off-season and Camp, Butler and Wise may well have completely different roles from what they were trying to play in 2017.

 

[mgteich]

This ^

Davis has the athleticism and strength to impress if healthy. Though I would compare him more toward a Trey Flowers type end.

Butler and wise don't impress me, seem more like role players who regressed as the regular season wore on, were so so against the run and in contain. We should draft some speed at LB's and End.

I find it strange to expect more from Davis than from Wise or Butler (or Lee for that matter). But maybe that's just me.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree about Davis being a reasonable comp for Trey Flowers.

However, both Wise (543) and Butler (473) played way more snaps in 2017 than might otherwise be expected from rookies who were likely intended to be eased into the mix in reserve roles (with Nink not retired and Valentine/Branch healthy and active). It's not really a shock that their play tailed off a bit at the end of the season. It often happens with rookies who get no real break between the end of their college careers and their first seasons in the NFL.

Also, Butler and Wise have more length and a bit more heft than the Davis/Flowers type of DE. Wise and Butler are maybe closer to the 3-4 DE template than to the 4-3 DE template and, thus, probably shouldn't be expected to perform the same role as Flowers/Davis types.

In 2018, with Valentine back and Shelton replacing the ineffectual 2017 version of Branch, and with Clayborn in the mix and Lee potentially developing with a full off-season and Camp, Butler and Wise may well have completely different roles from what they were trying to play in 2017.

Wise is (built and athletic wise) Willie mcginest 20 years later.
If mcginest cane along today he would tear up teams in the chandler jones Pats role, especially as an inside rusher on passing downs.
Remains to be seen if Wise has the talent level ie can out it together but that’s the blueprint imo.

 

[Wozzy]

Wise is (built and athletic wise) Willie mcginest 20 years later.
If mcginest cane along today he would tear up teams in the chandler jones Pats role, especially as an inside rusher on passing downs.
Remains to be seen if Wise has the talent level ie can out it together but that’s the blueprint imo.

Dude Willie was the third overall pick, to say he was substantially more athletic then Wise is a vast understatement. They're both tall, thats about it.

 

[Wozzy]

Agree about Davis being a reasonable comp for Trey Flowers.

However, both Wise (543) and Butler (473) played way more snaps in 2017 than might otherwise be expected from rookies who were likely intended to be eased into the mix in reserve roles (with Nink not retired and Valentine/Branch healthy and active). It's not really a shock that their play tailed off a bit at the end of the season. It often happens with rookies who get no real break between the end of their college careers and their first seasons in the NFL.

Also, Butler and Wise have more length and a bit more heft than the Davis/Flowers type of DE. Wise and Butler are maybe closer to the 3-4 DE template than to the 4-3 DE template and, thus, probably shouldn't be expected to perform the same role as Flowers/Davis types.

In 2018, with Valentine back and Shelton replacing the ineffectual 2017 version of Branch, and with Clayborn in the mix and Lee potentially developing with a full off-season and Camp, Butler and Wise may well have completely different roles from what they were trying to play in 2017.

I like the players, maybe become good back of the roster types but IMO they are ho hum, they are Jarvis Green. Good role players but I can't see them excelling as starters, I could be wrong.

 

[maineman209]

I like the players, maybe become good back of the roster types but IMO they are ho hum, they are Jarvis Green. Good role players but I can't see them excelling as starters, I could be wrong.

I'm not sure that they were intended to be "starters", though that's a fairly meaningless designation for DL guys these days, especially DE. Pretty much everyone is a "role player" to some degree.

In 2016, Sheard, Long, Flowers and Nink played roughly equal snaps/game available. Long was the highest at 42 snaps/game and Flowers was the lowest at 35 snaps/game. Nink had the most "starts" with 11, and Long had the fewest at 7.

In any case, due to Valentine's injury, Branch's ability falling off a cliff, Ealy's faceplant and Nink's sudden & late retirement (not to mention injuries to HT, Rivers and Langi), Butler and Wise ended up playing way more snaps as rookies than were likely originally intended - and in roles for which they were not likely originally intended.

I think it's way premature to judge either of them as "back of the roster" types before seeing
A) how much they've developed going into their second seasons
B) what may be emphasized differently, scheme-wise, for 2018
C) what their roles may focus on in the 2018 schemes.

The both could end up being integral rotational types.

BTW - Jarvis Green isn't a particularly good comp with anyone in today's defensive scheme. He played his entire career as a backup/relief-man/designated pass-rusher during the Warren-Wilfork-Seymour 3-4 era, when those three players were "starters" in a much truer sense of the term.

 

[mgteich]

I like the players, maybe become good back of the roster types but IMO they are ho hum, they are Jarvis Green. Good role players but I can't see them excelling as starters, I could be wrong.

We are in fine shape if all (or even 2 or 3) are Jarvis green types of contributor.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

We are really set up well at Dt if everybody is healthy. Shelton, brown, valentine, guy and maybe butler form the strongest position on our team.

De - seems average to me. Flowers, Clayborn, wise and maybe butler seem solid. But we really need an edge setter and/or pure pass rusher.

Linebacker - Hightower and van noy are solid. All 4 other linebacker positions could use upgrading.

 

[Ring 6]

Dude Willie was the third overall pick, to say he was substantially more athletic then Wise is a vast understatement. They're both tall, thats about it.

Oh we are doing that draft pick thing in place of analysis?
As I said we will see where the talent level goes but that is the mold.

 

[Deus Irae]

DL: Flowers, Clayborne, Wise, Brown, Shelton, Guy, Valentine
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Flowers

So...

T. Flowers, Guy and Van Noy, accompanied by a bunch of "What if" players.

 

[mihap]

So...

T. Flowers, Guy and Van Noy, accompanied by a bunch of "What if" players.

Funny and so true. If they are going to be healthy with some good draft at LB....