The Defensive Front 7 - Lots of Work, Lots Of Options

[mgteich]

My point is that missing much of a preseason and all of a rookie season makes it very difficult to compete with those with experience, or with those who have just played great senior college season.

The injured players have had a long, long time off from competitive football. From a personal side, many have been paid for the first time in their lives. It is extremely difficult to come back from injuries, and make up for the missing year of football, without any base for understanding the NFL and its regimens.

 

[PWRxWLF]

He has some speed and ST ability, and we’ve certainly used that LB4-5 spot on much worse prospects in the past.

I’d like to see what another year could do.

This right here. All day long. We’ve used those last 2 LB spots on a whole lot worse talent over the years. I liked Flowers a lot and hope we can re-sign him at a decent deal. He definitely has a future here. I also like Roberts. He’s a solid role player that was unfortunately forced into too large of a role. He’s young, and appeared to continue getting better. This is how I’m hoping it all shakes out next season.
Hightower-Starting
Van Noy-Starting
Rivers-Starting
M. Flowers-Backup/ST
Roberts-Backup
I’m really high on Rivers playing a hybrid role & becoming a good player for us over the next few seasons. Bring Harrison back to see what he has in the tank through camp. I’d also like to see a few younger FA’s that show upside but maybe didn’t excel on their first contract to push these other guys.
I don’t really feel like our LB’s are in bad shape. This last season we had many stretches where we were missing 3 starters from the entire previous year. That’s gonna make a unit look like ****. No way around it.

 

[maineman209]

3 free agent fixes for Patriots pass rush problem

Murphy is clearly the best of those three and also least likely to be available to the Pats. Three seasons of very solid performance at 3-4 OLB, plus a significant contributor on ST (35%-50% of ST snaps). Virtually no injury history prior to his 2017 knee thing.

The Skins should have around $26M in cap space left, even after the Alex Smith deal becomes official. Not a lot of significant/expensive other in-house UFAs to sign. Unless Murphy wants a Kerrigan-level deal ($13M APY), or really doesn't want to play for Manusky (new DC), at this point I don't see the Skins not re-signing him.

Lynch played each of his first four seasons in the NFL as an OLB under a different DC - Fangio (2014), Mangini (2015) and O'Neil (2016) all running a version of the 3-4. Last season, Robert Saleh switched to a 4-3 and tried to use Lynch as a part-time DE. His injury history seems neither great nor awful - a few games missed here an there to various ankle/calf issues (and one concussion), but he's probably missed more games over the past two seasons as a healthy scratch.

He also hasn't played much on special teams, but he should be dirt cheap.

In Attaochu's first three seasons as an OLB in Pagano's 3-4 with the Chargers, injuries kept him off the field in 2014 (5 games with a bad hammy), and 2016 (missed half the season - first with a mid-season ankle issue, then with a foot thing that sent him to IR in early December). In between (2015), he was a decent rotational player (67% of the D-snaps). Then, last season, the new DC (Gus Bradley) switched to a 4-3 and Attaochu spent most of the season as a healthy scratch.

Also likely to be dirt cheap, but also didn't play a lot of special teams.

I don't now that either Lynch or Attaochu will "fix" the pass-rush issue, but they might be worth on off-season look wrt helping with depth at OLB.

 

[captain stone]

...I also like Roberts. He’s a solid role player that was unfortunately forced into too large of a role. He’s young, and appeared to continue getting better...

It didn't appear to me that Roberts was getting better, at all. If anything, he was getting worse. If he's still on the Opening Day 53 (excluding multiple injuries to others), then Bill didn't do enough to improve the LB position, which IMO requires an influx of top-60 talent by using one of our first 3 picks on it.

 

[Love The Drake]

2019 NFL Free Agents Tracker
I'm starting to sift thru linebackers and teams that actually will do business with us.

 

[Love The Drake]

2019 NFL Free Agents Tracker
I'm starting to sift thru linebackers and teams that actually will do business with us.

Since Bill loves trading for players on the last year of their contracts.

 

[maineman209]

My point is that missing much of a preseason and all of a rookie season makes it very difficult to compete with those with experience, or with those who have just played great senior college season.

The injured players have had a long, long time off from competitive football. From a personal side, many have been paid for the first time in their lives. It is extremely difficult to come back from injuries, and make up for the missing year of football, without any base for understanding the NFL and its regimens.

It's an added burden, certainly. But, I think the result may also depend on how the individual injured player responds during his "time off", and not just physically. Is he rehabbing at the Patriots facility? Is he consistently attending film sessions, breaking down the all-22, studying the scheme and playbook? If so, by the time he's medically cleared to practice, he might actually be a bit ahead of a rookie on the mental part.

 

[maineman209]

Flowers had a full camp and preseason (with the #1's) and was injured in Game One. On defense, he is the closest example.

Watson was a similar case on offense.

Cannon was a very special case. Cannon was NOT injured. His illness was known. Scar was willing to wait to develop him. BTW, Cannon did NOT miss his rookie year. He was activated in Game 11.

Vereen played five games.
======
We've been through this before. We have a long time. I guess we can re-live the stories of all that failed.

There were so many others that Belichick tried to bring back again and again (Crable comes to mind).

Even Crable (a 3rd-rounder) was on the 53-man for 8 games (though a gameday inactive) before being sent to IR (with a shin injury?). Then, he was IR'd for his entire second season (2009).

Brandon Tate was on PUP (knee) through Camp, and then through the first six games of the 2009 season. He was active for 2 games after practicing for three weeks, returned 4 kickoffs at a 25.6-yd average, then missed the rest of his rookie season on IR after re-injuring the knee.

Then, in 2010, he played 16 games for the Pats with 10 starts. He caught 24/46 for 432 yards (18.0 YPC) and 3 TDs. He also returned 41 kickoffs at a 25.8-yd clip, two for TDs.

He was waived by the Pats at the end of 2011 Camp and claimed by Cinci. He spent five seasons there, and then the past two in Buffalo as a KR-PR/#4WR, and only missed three more games over those seven seasons.

 

[Joey007]

My only concern with Rivers is the damnation of rookie IR and how infrequently they ever go on to amount to much......

Trey Flowers was certainly a rare exception to this.

 

[Joey007]

To make this simple: while this front seven undoubtedly has some good players, it lacks true impact players.

Once Hightower went down last year, with the occasional exception of Trey Flowers, we had no significant players up front who were capable of disrupting an offense consistently.

The front seven would often hold its own last year because it had a plethora of good role players who are capable starters, including Brown, Flowers, and Van Noy. It also included solid rotational pieces in M Flowers, Guy, A. Butler, Wise Jr., etc.

The problem is that the players with somewhat limited talent can be coached to play well in a great system, but a lack of talent always will show up at the biggest stage. That’s what we saw in the SB. We even saw it in the 2017 SB as well, but that D had a big difference maker in Hightower, who made a huge play when it mattered most to change the momentum of the game.

While HT should be back next year, we will need more. Hopefully some of the young guys like Rivers and Wise will step up, but we will absolutely need significant some reinforcements up front.

It’s not impossible to achieve that in the draft, but it’s unlikely to get a strong immediate impact from rookies alone. I really think we need to be aggressive and go after some significant veteran players to come in and make an immediate impact.

The SB window is likely closing pretty soon in the next year or two... I just don’t think we have the time to solely rely on developing a bunch of young players anymore.

 

[captain stone]

To make this simple: while this front seven undoubtedly has some good players, it lacks true impact players.

Once Hightower went down last year, with the occasional exception of Trey Flowers, we had no significant players up front who were capable of disrupting an offense consistently.

The front seven would often hold its own last year because it had a plethora of good role players who are capable starters, including Brown, Flowers, and Van Noy. It also included solid rotational pieces in M Flowers, Guy, A. Butler, Wise Jr., etc.

The problem is that the players with somewhat limited talent can be coached to play well in a great system, but a lack of talent always will show up at the biggest stage. That’s what we saw in the SB. We even saw it in the 2017 SB as well, but that D had a big difference maker in Hightower, who made a huge play when it mattered most to change the momentum of the game.

While HT should be back next year, we will need more. Hopefully some of the young guys like Rivers and Wise will step up, but we will absolutely need significant some reinforcements up front.

It’s not impossible to achieve that in the draft, but it’s unlikely to get a strong immediate impact from rookies alone. I really think we need to be aggressive and go after some significant veteran players to come in and make an immediate impact.

The SB window is likely closing pretty soon in the next year or two... I just don’t think we have the time to solely rely on developing a bunch of young players anymore.

We absolutely do need more impact players in the front 7. Hightower's return should help, but how much longer will it be before before another part of his body breaks down? Derek Rivers should also help, we hope; but he is still a complete unknown at this point.
Unfortunately, however, we don't have nearly enough cap space to acquire an impact defender from the outside, so we're going to have to rely on developing young players.

 

[Joey007]

We absolutely do need more impact players in the front 7. Hightower's return should help, but how much longer will it be before before another part of his body breaks down? Derek Rivers should also help, we hope; but he is still a complete unknown at this point.
Unfortunately, however, we don't have nearly enough cap space to acquire an impact defender from the outside, so we're going to have to rely on developing young players.

I wouldn’t rule it out yet. We have a lot of cap space maneuvering that can be done.

 

[mgteich]

I wouldn’t rule it out yet. We have a lot of cap space maneuvering that can be done.

Personally, I will consider free agent LB's after Solder, a RB and a CB are signed.

 

[mgteich]

I wouldn’t rule it out yet. We have a lot of cap space maneuvering that can be done.

Just BTW, IMHO, we don't have a lot of cap room, even after all the potential maneuvering.

 

[Joey007]

Just BTW, IMHO, we don't have a lot of cap room, even after all the potential maneuvering.

We don’t know how high next years cap room will inflate, though.

 

[mgteich]

The patriots make estimates. They are relatively conservative in their estimates. They are rarely in a position where cap room is a huge issue. They rarely are at the top or bottom of cap room available.

We don’t know how high next years cap room will inflate, though.

 

[supafly]

Personally, I will consider free agent LB's after Solder, a RB and a CB are signed.

While we’re all focused on potential LBs, it’s at least possible that Belichick could be more focused on a more athletic safety that he can line up in the situations where he was using Richards as the 4th S in a dime package.

I’m sure that a more athletic LB is addressed somewhere at some point, but I wouldn’t be shocked if Belichick’s priorities were a bit different than what we’re expecting.

 

[supafly]

We don’t know how high next years cap room will inflate, though.

For 2018, you mean? I’ve been reading that 178m is the current estimate, although there are many who would know much more than myself about it.

Even with the expected cuts, I don’t think we’d be looking at more than 30m or so, and we have a fair amount of key players who need to be retained, as well as the potential for a guy like Flowers, Mason, or Cooks to be extended, too.

 

[Flash]

Biggest piece missing is a NT IMO. Malcom Brown is fine as a 3-tech DT but we need someone else to clog the space and stop the run. Once Branch went down we have no one else capable of playing that role.

LB really isn't that big of an issue IMO. We lost our top two guys in Hightower and McClellin, and two rookies in Rivers and Langi (even if Langi wasn't going to contribute much), that's a big amount of depth lost in one season, I doubt this will happen again next season. We get those players back with KVN, Marquis Flowers and Roberts rotating in and out, I think we are set.

 

[maineman209]

It also included solid rotational pieces in M Flowers, Guy, A. Butler, Wise Jr., etc.

The problem is that the players with somewhat limited talent can be coached to play well in a great system, but a lack of talent always will show up at the biggest stage.

The question remains, is it lack of "talent"? Or is it lack of experience?

Butler, Wise and Lee had zero snaps on an NFL defense before this season.

M. Flowers had a total of 72.

This was Guy's first season in the Pats system and schemes. Van Noy has had only this season plus 7 games in 2016 learning on the fly (with no 2016 OTAs or Camp with the Pats). It seems to me that it's a bit early to be concluding that the problem is purely a "lack of talent."