Malcolm Butler Mega Thread

[aluminum seats]

You apparently only see what you want to see. I have criticized Belichick for the performance of his defense Sunday night, that’s fair and valid, calling him every name in the book and calling for his firing is what’s “ hysterical,” yet you are dead silent on that. Hypocrite.

What was your criticism again? I must have missed that.

 

[Ivan]

Belichick should not have benched Butler for this entire game. It is inexcusable for him to make a decision like that in the Super Bowl.

Belichick’s arrogance and stupidity cost us this game. Brady was unable to cover up Belichick’s mistake today as he has so many times in the past 20 years.

I’m whole heartedly disappointed in Belichick and him putting his need to send a message to a player who has helped him win 2 previous Super Bowls over the success of the team. There is nobody that can say we were better off with Rowe, Richards, etc. on the field.

Aluminum seats

 

[GorBelSer]

I agree, I didn’t like Chung in the slot receiver to begin with, but once again I don’t know why they benched Butler, and until I do I’m not going to judge that decision. My guess is that they were really unhappy with his preparation and attitude, told him he wasn’t starting a few days before the game, and then his behavior after that led them to decide they had seen enough and weren’t going to play him.

Could be, that is something we dont know. Butler could have very well sprained his ankle during the warmups, it happens, you have to move on without him. My beef with the plan is, we have 3 more CBs, two of them covered outside routes, other played in slot all season long (when he was available). So, you move your slot CB outside, against their top threat, and it costs us 10 points. Then you make an adjustment but you still play with only 2 CBs and slot CB is still on the outside, and safety in slot is exposed throughout the entire game. Bademosi instead of Rowe on Smith is not much of a difference, Smith is fourth or fifth option in their passing game and if you add a safety over the top Foles wont target him (his TD against the Vikings came after they decided to play with no help and Waynes was caught off guard on LOS). Place your slot corner in slot, move FS away from TE and let SS take care of him. Why we played the way we played... is beyond me.

 

[mosi]

2nd half, he was on fire. Absolutely. Do we have to wait until second halves to see how look good, though? That's my point.

Why does no one care we looks like a confused deer in the headlights in the red zone with all of these weapons available and a supposed great OC?

Where was Burkhead?

Wait, are you putting that loss on Brady? I don't agree with that.

 

[Ivan]

Fire that moron and his ego.

Aluminum seats

 

[Ivan]

I'm pretty sure we should make sure he's fired tomorrow. What a loser.

Aluminum seats

 

[Ivan]

Time for Krafty Bob to jettison coach coconuts...raally? What a joke of a game plan on D...

Aluminum seats

 

[Ivan]

I am glad you have the temperament to call it questionable. To me it is a monumental **** up that would and should see any other coach run out of town. It’s inexcusable, he sabotaged his own team. If it was another sport we would be asking who got paid to fix the game.

Aluminum seats


That’s a fraction of just one of the threads tarring and feathering Belichick , And from what I can tell you had no problem with any of it, your only problem is with giving their crap right back to them. It’s not about “ tone ” because their “ tone’s” are as rude, disrespectful, and batsh.t crazy as it gets. You agree with them and disagree with me, so spare me the “ tone” crap.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

So after playing 97% of snaps for the last two years, and clearly having no problem grasping what was required of him at any point in that stretch, the Pats suddenly implemented a defense in the Super Bowl that he was unable to comprehend, to the point that he could not get on the field for a single snap?

Or he had his head up his a** for some reason and wasn't putting in the effort to learn and absorb the gameplan and was woefully unprepared by gametime. See, two can play at your assert-facts-to-make-my-own-argument-look-great game. At least I'll consider the possibility that BB screwed up as opposed to the Butlerites who can't imagine that he could have done anything wrong.

 

[Soliel]

As many wins as the pats get, I’m willing to rise or fall with belichick even when I don’t understand. He has earned that right in my mind to make whatever decision. Even ones I dislike

And I can rest knowing it will most likely be a 12 win or more year again next year

 

[Ivan]

Could be, that is something we dont know. Butler could have very well sprained his ankle during the warmups, it happens, you have to move on without him. My beef with the plan is, we have 3 more CBs, two of them covered outside routes, other played in slot all season long (when he was available). So, you move your slot CB outside, against their top threat, and it costs us 10 points. Then you make an adjustment but you still play with only 2 CBs and slot CB is still on the outside, and safety in slot is exposed throughout the entire game. Bademosi instead of Rowe on Smith is not much of a difference, Smith is fourth or fifth option in their passing game and if you add a safety over the top Foles wont target him (his TD against the Vikings came after they decided to play with no help and Waynes was caught off guard on LOS). Place your slot corner in slot, move FS away from TE and let SS take care of him. Why we played the way we played... is beyond me.

I don’t really disagree with any if that, and, As I have said numerous times I have absolutely no problem with anyone criticizing the coaches and Belichick for that defensive performance, Belichick said it “ was on me,” and he’s right. What I take serious exception to is the Lynch party this forum has been since the loss. Belichick deserves much better from Patriot fans than the sh.t that’s been spewed in these threads.

 

[Ivan]

What was your criticism again? I must have missed that.

My criticism is that the defense wasn’t ready, played like crap, and was the primary reason for that loss, and Belichick as the GM and coach has to take responsibility. Unlike you, and many others, however I would place the blame more in Belichick the GM than I would Belichick the coach for that loss. The Patriots have been struggling with mobile QB’s and RPO offense for a number of years now, and when they faced a similar offense in the opener they got torched in the exact same way for the same points, and Butler played in that game and it made no difference at all, they still allowed the same points. Lombardi pointed it out immediately and he was right, the match ups in Personnel and scheme favored the Eagles, he pointed to the KC game and said they were going to have similar problems, and he was 100% right. Belichick has to know this as he watched every second of every play over and over, and it’s his responsibility to get the personnel in defense to handle these offenses and mobile QB’s, to date he has failed to do so. He gets the credit when he assembles great teams and he gets the blame when he falls short of that. The Patriots were outcoached and outplayed Sunday Night and they deserved to lose. Imo it goes well beyond Malcolm Butler, and those failing to realize that don’t really understand why their defense got scorched the way it did.

As for Malcolm Butler I still don’t know why he was benched, and until I do I’ll hold off in judging that decision. Until then I’ll give Belichick the benefit of the doubt because he’s earned it, and imo it’s up to a player to earn their way into the field, it’s not an entitlement.


Chirp chirp chirp aluminum seats, hypocritical douchebag

 

[IllegalContact]

I pointed to the most egregious example as the most egregious example, that people didn’t condemn it shows just how far gone they are.

yes!!!

condemn all the lynchings!!!

 

[QuantumMechanic]

My beef with the plan is, we have 3 more CBs, two of them covered outside routes, other played in slot all season long (when he was available). So, you move your slot CB outside, against their top threat, and it costs us 10 points. Then you make an adjustment but you still play with only 2 CBs and slot CB is still on the outside, and safety in slot is exposed throughout the entire game. Bademosi instead of Rowe on Smith is not much of a difference, Smith is fourth or fifth option in their passing game and if you add a safety over the top Foles wont target him (his TD against the Vikings came after they decided to play with no help and Waynes was caught off guard on LOS). Place your slot corner in slot, move FS away from TE and let SS take care of him. Why we played the way we played... is beyond me.

Exactly. To me that's the bigger deal than Butler. Butler is no Deion Sanders -- he's not good enough to save a bad scheme.

Let's take the does-BB-hate-him-or-not thing out of the equation and pretend all was fairies and unicorns and that Butler started and was then knocked out of the game on the first play and we saw them playing the scheme we actually saw in SB52.

I think we'd all be going "what the hell?!?" I just really can't understand what they were doing with the alignments they chose.

And remember that they would have been playing the same very flawed scheme even if Butler had played! That was the game plan for the secondary that they drew up and practiced.

 

[GorBelSer]

I don’t really disagree with any if that, and, As I have said numerous times I have absolutely no problem with anyone criticizing the coaches and Belichick for that defensive performance, Belichick said it “ was in me,” and he’s right. What I take serious exception to is the Lynch party this forum has been since the loss. Belichick deserves much better from Patriot fans than the sh.t that’s been spewed in these threads.

Folks were venting after the loss, now everyone is gradually moving toward accepting that loss. Belichick is our coach in 2018, it would be ludicrous to ask for his head after 3 SB runs in 4 years. But he certainly does not help the team by retaining bottom of the barrel players like Richards or Roberts. And he needs to realize that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think that's where most of us are, specifically the last sentence. If Butler had officially become a locker room problem, then so be it: I've got no qualms with Belichick's well-established approach of jettisoning potential cancers before they have a problem to take root and cause real problems. On the list of premium talents Belichick's shipped out, he might not crack the top 5. I would question the timing, though: just get one more game out of him then go your separate ways and be done with him.

Yea. No one said Collins was a locker room problem and I believe that. Clearly Bill felt Malcolm would be fine as well thus the decision not to trade him.

If it really was a matchup/scheme issue, OTOH, then that's something that I would've hoped they could have implemented before the day of the game, and more importantly I'd especially hope that Belichick would consider switching things up when it became clear that the defense he and Patricia's plan was getting absolutely shredded. Something had to change, and putting in your best-tackling corner, the CB2 that played 97% of defensive snaps throughout the year, is such an obvious solution to the specific problems that were plaguing them that it makes it almost impossible to believe that this was purely a matchup/scheme benching. There simply had to be more to it.

Agree. If it was purely a football decision then BB is complete idiot.

But I don't think it was.

I've been called out on this forum a few times in the last year for having an apparently negative opinion of Butler, so I don't think I have an unreasonably high perspective of the guy here. But how many times are we supposed to watch end-of-the-roster talent whiff on their guys and allow a bunch of YAC on third down before we can all just acknowledge that Butler would have obviously contributed better (partly because it's hard to imagine him being worse).

I'm a huge Malcolm fan (or was?) and in 2015 and 2016 he was very good. This year he was still good but he play absolutely dropped off. Malcolm even admitted that. The question is why did his play drop? Contract? Injury they were hiding? Another off the field issue?

 

[Ivan]

Folks were venting after the loss, now everyone is gradually moving toward accepting that loss. Belichick is our coach in 2018, it would be ludicrous to ask for his head after 3 SB runs in 4 years. But he certainly does not help the team by retaining bottom of the barrel players like Richards or Roberts. And he needs to realize that.

I agree in Richards, I think Belichick has been using him as Chung’s back up and trying to make him a hybrid safety/LB and he simply doesn’t have the athletic ability to do the job. I disagree on Roberts, he should be a role playing run stuffing LB but Hightower’s injury and Harris busting thrust him into a role that’s too big for him and exposing his limitations.

 

[Ivan]

Yea. No one said Collins was a locker room problem and I believe that. Clearly Bill felt Malcolm would be fine as well thus the decision not to trade him.



Agree. If it was purely a football decision then BB is complete idiot.

But I don't think it was.



I'm a huge Malcolm fan (or was?) and in 2015 and 2016 he was very good. This year he was still good but he play absolutely dropped off. Malcolm even admitted that. The question is why did his play drop? Contract? Injury they were hiding? Another off the field issue?

Ultimately I think Butler got into the same mind set as Collins. “ They won’t pay me what I’m worth, I’m
Underpaid now, I’m not going to make my money sacrificing stats for the team so I’m going to play the way I want to and not as part of the unit.” Both are good players who thought they were better than they are. Belichick lost trust and faith in both because they tuned out the coaches in hopes of upping their value in an open market. Belichick has zero tolerance for those who want to do whatever they want on the field. More than anything I think Butler tuning out the coaches was at the core of his benching, but I’m guessing that there was more to it leading up to the game.

 

[cardiak]

QB rating when targeting Butlers reciever was 103.3 this year with 8 TDS. He is also the shortest corner we have and all of the eagles receivers are over 6’.

We have some of the lousiest fans ever. You can’t win every game, eagles were the better team. Can’t win the Superbowl every year, we’ve made it to the Superbowl 8 times since 2001 and you rotten spoiled man child’s can only complain.

You’re lucky to have a combo of Bill and Brady. If you think otherwise you’re a fool because most teams are lucky to see one Superbowl in 15-20 years.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Also, let's drop the "nobody knew anything until just before kickoff" crap:



They may not have known until just before kickoff that he wouldn't be playing at all, but they knew days ahead that his role was at a minimum being cut way back.