Foxboro 'Flu Watch

[DarrylS]

It's actually a health and safety issue. Right now there is sometimes tremendous pressure (not necessarily from the coaches) for a player injured during the game to suck it up and keep playing.

For example?? Or conjecture??

 

[jmt57]

Regarding the idea that there should be more players (or an unlimited number) able to go on short term IR, or a disabled list like other sports have:

In essence the NFL already has seven short term IR/DL spots available to every team, every week. That is the purpose of a 53-man roster, as opposed to a 46-man game day roster. Add in the two players that are on IR that can return within the season, and there should in theory be plenty of space for players with injuries that are not of the season ending variety.



If I recall correctly the Raiders back in the seventies used to regularly stash a lot of rookies on IR with a mystery ailment, as a way of creatively circumventing roster limits. The problem with doing that now is that a player on IR is not allowed to practice with the team, so it is very questionable how beneficial that strategy would be.

 

[Tuck]

I think the whole idea of "designated to return" is stupid, imo everyone should be able to return.. for example a player has a severe high ankle sprain in the first gam, put him on the DL until he is ready to play again and move a practice player in his absence.. why tie up a roster space for however long it takes for the high ankle sprain to heal??

Some teams get "injury bugs" early in the season, why penalize them by leaving them shorthanded for the season..

But then again I believe that all 53 players should dress for every game and be ready to play if needed.. they are getting paid good money to sit on the bench, it would add another layer of strategy to NFL game planning.

I think it would be healthy to expand the designated to return exemption to some number more than one or two and I think the league is experimenting with this idea now but making it unlimited would essentially make the rosters unlimited because their is no good way to police who is injured and who is faking. Furthermore, an unlimited supply of DTR roster exemptions would allow teams to start stashing players away for the playoffs making even more of the regular season games non-compelling. In an era where the league is turning almost everything it touches to **** this is not one of those things IMHO.

 

[Miguel]

The 2 Negatives of being red-shirted

 

[patchick]

That is not correct. Or, rather, it's not a complete explanation. Players can be given injury settlements and cut.

Yeah, I sloppily lumped together the two injury designations. If a player doesn't agree to the injury settlement, he goes to IR.

It's also true that roster depth considerations are a factor in a great many IR decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean "stashing" or "red-shirting," it's just the way the IR system works. For each injury, the team has to decide if it's worth devoting the roster spot to waiting for the player to return. It can be a tough decision, and sometimes you regret the choices later.

Anyway, my basic "stashing" challenge remains: Name a young player on the bubble who, at cutdown day, was sent to IR with a dubious injury, then came back to contribute the next season. Personally, I can't think of one.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, I sloppily lumped together the two injury designations. If a player doesn't agree to the injury settlement, he goes to IR.

It's also true that roster depth considerations are a factor in a great many IR decisions. That doesn't necessarily mean "stashing" or "red-shirting," it's just the way the IR system works. For each injury, the team has to decide if it's worth devoting the roster spot to waiting for the player to return. It can be a tough decision, and sometimes you regret the choices later.

Anyway, my basic "stashing" challenge remains: Name a young player on the bubble who, at cutdown day, was sent to IR with a dubious injury, then came back to contribute the next season. Personally, I can't think of one.

I would expect that actually stashing players via IR would be a rarity around the entire league, and not just in N.E.. However, having said that:

If it's a bubble player, he's inherently a bubble player, so your question is kind of loaded. The pluses of getting the IR designation are the ability to use the team facilities, access to teammates, still getting paid, and the like. The negative is that he was already a bubble player and he's missing a year of full practice (minus however much he'd have missed due to injury, of course).

 

[SlowGettingUp]

For example?? Or conjecture??

Based on the amount of Toradol they pump into the players, there is clear pressure to play when injured.

http://deadspin.com/the-amount-of-toradol-nfl-players-use-is-scary-as-****-1793173870

You think that pressure lessens when you are injured during the game and you are the last player standing at your position?

 

[patchick]

If it's a bubble player, he's inherently a bubble player, so your question is kind of loaded.

Umm...what would it even mean to talk about "stashing" anybody who wasn't a bubble player? The whole idea is to circumvent the waiver wire when there's a player who you like but have no room for. That situation is hardly going to come up with your starting lineup.

 

[Deus Irae]

Umm...what would it even mean to talk about "stashing" anybody who wasn't a bubble player? The whole idea is to circumvent the waiver wire when there's a player who you like but have no room for. That situation is hardly going to come up with your starting lineup.

And my point is that a "bubble" player was already a cut possibility before the "injury", so it's not a surprise if they get cut, eventually, once they are no longer "injured".

And, because the sample size is pretty small, and because people will have different takes on "bubble", there's not really any way to be definitive on whether or not it would help to be "red-shirted".

Was Dane Fletcher a bubble guy in 2012, for example?

 

[patchick]

And my point is that a "bubble" player was already a cut possibility before the "injury", so it's not a surprise if they get cut, eventually, once they are no longer "injured".

And, because the sample size is pretty small, and because people will have different takes on "bubble", there's not really any way to be definitive on whether or not it would help to be "red-shirted".

Was Dane Fletcher a bubble guy in 2012, for example?

Yeah, there's some gray area. But let's try something like "a late-round rookie or UDFA" as a proxy for the amorphous bubble.

As for Fletcher, wasn't he waived/injured?

 

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, there's some gray area. But let's try something like "a late-round rookie or UDFA" as a proxy for the amorphous bubble.

As for Fletcher, wasn't he waived/injured?

Dane Fletcher clears waivers, returns to the New England Patriots

 

[DarrylS]

Based on the amount of Toradol they pump into the players, there is clear pressure to play when injured.

http://deadspin.com/the-amount-of-toradol-nfl-players-use-is-scary-as-****-1793173870

You think that pressure lessens when you are injured during the game and you are the last player standing at your position?

Can you connect a generalized statement regarding the NFL to the Patriots?? The deadspin article references the Jets, Falcons and Steelers...

This is a classic "straw man" argument.. inow there is no evidence of any of this based upon what you presented..

 

[primetime]

That is not correct. Or, rather, it's not a complete explanation. Players can be given injury settlements and cut.

And to add to this, players themselves generally initiate the injury settlement process. It's a tradeoff as most players get paid in full on IR, but also miss a season and guys without much of a track record may find themselves out of the league without playing time.

People talk gleefully about the Foxboro flu, a fake thing people imagine must be done because Belichick is s genius, but such a practice would not only be cheating but actually illegal. Then The same people get mad about the league's reaction to mostly imagined offenses. It's weird.

 

[Family]

Anyway, my basic "stashing" challenge remains: Name a young player on the bubble who, at cutdown day, was sent to IR with a dubious injury, then came back to contribute the next season. Personally, I can't think of one.

Darryl Roberts was stashed. The injury was real, but nowhere near season ending. If it happened to a core player they would have waited for it to heal. While he didn't contribute here, because of the unexpected development of Butler and J. Jones, he is looking like an NFL player and contributed last year for the Jets.

Tony Garcia is looking like they might parley a minor injury into a redshirt season. The reports I've read is he needs to bulk up to get ready for the NFL. Maybe they keep Fleming and Waddle this season and IR him.

Does anyone know what his injury actually is?

 

[Ring 6]

Darryl Roberts was stashed. The injury was real, but nowhere near season ending. If it happened to a core player they would have waited for it to heal. While he didn't contribute here, because of the unexpected development of Butler and J. Jones, he is looking like an NFL player and contributed last year for the Jets.

Tony Garcia is looking like they might parley a minor injury into a redshirt season. The reports I've read is he needs to bulk up to get ready for the NFL. Maybe they keep Fleming and Waddle this season and IR him.

Does anyone know what his injury actually is?

There is no requirement that an injury be season ending to go on IR.
As you say Roberts injury was real.

 

[Ring 6]

And my point is that a "bubble" player was already a cut possibility before the "injury", so it's not a surprise if they get cut, eventually, once they are no longer "injured".

And, because the sample size is pretty small, and because people will have different takes on "bubble", there's not really any way to be definitive on whether or not it would help to be "red-shirted".

Was Dane Fletcher a bubble guy in 2012, for example?

No fletcher wasn't on the bubble, he had a torn acl.

 

[primetime]

There is no requirement that an injury be season ending to go on IR.
As you say Roberts injury was real.

Right, the requirement is "not immediately available for participation with a club." However, if a player is healthy, the team is obligated under the CBA to release a player from the injured list. An injury settlement speeds that process; the team pays a negotiated portion of the salary based upon the fraction of the season the player will miss and the player waives the team of liability. You can't legally stash a player on injured reserve.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Here is some data on current IR List across teams - the Saints and the Jets each have 7 players on IR each ($8m and $4m cap hits respectively), the Dolphins have a greater than $25m cap hit (mostly from their QB), while the Pats are right near the bottom with a single minimum-salary player (Corey Vereen).

NFL 2017 Injured Reserve Tracker

 

[slam]

If Foxboro Flu was a real and viable strategy, maybe some of LeBlanc, Kamu Guglier-Hill, and Darryl Roberts would still be Patriots.

 

[Family]

There is no requirement that an injury be season ending to go on IR.
As you say Roberts injury was real.

I guess this is a fine line then. To use an example from this season, if Roberts were Gilmore or even J. Jones, they would wait out the injury.

I don't think they make up injuries, but a five week one to Austin Carr or Lucien would be handled differently than any of the big 5 WRS.

That's the extent of the Foxboro flu.