Lawrence Guy signed - DL/DE checked!

[jah]

the formation. You can see Chung playing in a LB position. Brown is the right 3-tech although he's playing more as a 2-tech and Flowers is at the left 3-tech. Hightower and Ninkovich are the OLBs.



File was too large to upload so I had to include it as a tweet.

How is that a 5-1? It looks like a 3-4 to me. As pretty much all Pats fans know by now, the X-Y alignment notation is pointless, and it's the personnel that matters. I see 3 linemen, 3 linebackers, and a safety playing linebacker.

 

[jah]

The same formation, this time with McCourty in the box, Van Noy at the Mike and McClellin replacing Hightower at ROLB

This looks even more (compared to the first tweet) like a regular old 3-3 nickel being misidentified as as 5-1.

 

[manxman2601]

How is that a 5-1? It looks like a 3-4 to me. As pretty much all Pats fans know by now, the X-Y alignment notation is pointless, and it's the personnel that matters. I see 3 linemen, 3 linebackers, and a safety playing linebacker.

5-1 or 3-4, the names are irrelevant, the roles are what matter. You have 5 men on the LOS and one linebacker. I said earlier that it was a 3-4 with some adjustments.

 

[Ring 6]

Frankly, names are irrelevant, it's roles that matter. And Flowers is definitely playing the 3-tech in that picture. In a traditional 4-3, he'd be outside the OT.

3 tech is not head up on the t. It is outside shoulder of the g.
In a traditional 43 the strongside de with an OLB outside him lined up on his side.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I would add interior O-Line to roster spots available for rookies. We don't know how Tre Jackson is doing. He was a DeGuglielmo pick, meaning he isn't typically the type of player Scar prefers physically. He is heavier than the other interior linemen. I can see us moving on from him. And I wouldn't count Karras' roster spot completely safe either.

Also, Andrews has been very solid, but I think there is room for improvement there as well. It won't push Andrews off the roster, but it would push one of Karras or Jackson off.

Jackson wasn't a "Deguglielmo" choice, Belichick was using Scarrnechia as his OL scout and Scar was the one who scouted Mason and Jackson, as well as Thuney. Even while "retired" Scar was working with Belichick on rebuilding the OL, and while not the best OL in football they are good and pretty young, and their interior OL should really start hitting their stride over the next couple of seasons.

 

[Ring 6]

This looks even more (compared to the first tweet) like a regular old 3-3 nickel being misidentified as as 5-1.

Well it's not a 51 because Hightower isn't a de.
That's like saying a 43 is a 52 because the ssolb is up on the line on the te.

 

[Ring 6]

What can I tell you. On the first three plays that Nink lined up in that formation when Pittsburgh passed, he dropped into coverage.

Through three quarters, Nink has dropped into coverage eight times from that formation and rushed the passer twice. long played two snaps in that formation and dropped both times whilst Sheard was about 50-50 from that position in that formation.

That is because our game plan in that game was often to drop 8.
Over the course of the season this guys are not as likely to cover as rush.
As I said it's a game plan twist.

 

[JMC00]

We don't know how Tre Jackson is doing. He was a DeGuglielmo pick, meaning he isn't typically the type of player Scar prefers physically

Scar was present at Florida State's Pro Day. He got the Scar stamp of approval.

You could certainly argue that Scarnecchia input had something to do with the selection of Florida State offensive lineman Tre Jackson in the fourth round — Scarnecchia was present at FSU’s pro day, and he maintains a deep and abiding friendship with Seminoles offensive line coach Rick Trickett.

Bill Belichick: Former OL coach Dante Scarnecchia did ‘great job’ assisting in pre-draft evaluation process

 

[Ring 6]

The same formation, this time with McCourty in the box, Van Noy at the Mike and McClellin replacing Hightower at ROLB

Silly to argue semantics but I see a 425 with the solb up on the line to jam the receiver.
Mccourty isn't in the box.
This looks like a 3rd down play.

 

[manxman2601]

3 tech is not head up on the t. It is outside shoulder of the g.
In a traditional 43 the strongside de with an OLB outside him lined up on his side.

Okay then call it a 4-tech. I don't need to die on the field fighting over the definition of a 3 or 4 technique. Elijah is right, it's closer to a 3-4 than it is a 4-3.

 

[JMC00]

Jackson wasn't a "Deguglielmo" choice, Belichick was using Scarrnechia as his OL scout and Scar was the one who scouted Mason and Jackson, as well as Thuney. Even while "retired" Scar was working with Belichick on rebuilding the OL, and while not the best OL in football they are good and pretty young, and their interior OL should really start hitting their stride over the next couple of seasons.

Also scouted Andrews. In fact Andrews and Mason did PW's for Scar.

 

[manxman2601]

That is because our game plan in that game was often to drop 8.
Over the course of the season this guys are not as likely to cover as rush.
As I said it's a game plan twist.

Just randolely went through plays from other games. They must have been using the same game plan in those games too because Ninkovich was dropping more than he was rushing out of that formation.

 

[jah]

5-1 or 3-4, the names are irrelevant, the roles are what matter. You have 5 men on the LOS and one linebacker. I said earlier that it was a 3-4 with some adjustments.

To be clear, I was disagreeing with the tweet, not you.

 

[Husse]

Jackson wasn't a "Deguglielmo" choice, Belichick was using Scarrnechia as his OL scout and Scar was the one who scouted Mason and Jackson, as well as Thuney. Even while "retired" Scar was working with Belichick on rebuilding the OL, and while not the best OL in football they are good and pretty young, and their interior OL should really start hitting their stride over the next couple of seasons.

I know Scar was a consultant during DeGuglielmo's time here. But it's been stated before that DeGuglielmo liked heavier interior offensive linemen. And I would think that he had some say on who to draft as well, since he was ultimately the one who had to coach them.

I don't think it was a coincidence that we drafted interior guys weighing in at 315-330 lbs. (Stork - 315, Halapio - 323, Jackson - 330) with Mason as the exception (304) when he was here. Scar is usually around 305 for his guards, and even lighter for centers. I only checked until 2005, but Scar didn't draft an interior player above 307 lbs. (Mankins - 307, Stevenson - 300, Elgin - 291, Ohrnberger -297, Bussey - 306, Larsen - 307, Thuney - 304, Karras - 307). Maybe a case can be made that Cannon was picked as a guard (358!), and I may have missed some converts from tackle. But the trend seems to be ~305.

Obviously Scar had a significant say in who we drafted, I know that. But as I said, I don't think it was a coincidence we went heavier when DeGuglielmo was here.

 

[Husse]

Scar was present at Florida State's Pro Day. He got the Scar stamp of approval.

You could certainly argue that Scarnecchia input had something to do with the selection of Florida State offensive lineman Tre Jackson in the fourth round — Scarnecchia was present at FSU’s pro day, and he maintains a deep and abiding friendship with Seminoles offensive line coach Rick Trickett.

Bill Belichick: Former OL coach Dante Scarnecchia did ‘great job’ assisting in pre-draft evaluation process

I'm not disputing Scar didn't have a significant say. But DeGuglielmo liked heavier interior linemen. We drafted heavier under him. It may have been something like this:
DeGuglielmo scouts the linemen and makes a list of candidates he thinks fits what he wants to do with the line. Then Scar scouts those linemen and gives his evaluation of them. Then there could be some discussion between DeGuglielmo and Scar but ultimately a Scar approved list of prospects is generated. Finally, Bill uses/considers that list during the draft.

 

[manxman2601]

To be clear, I was disagreeing with the tweet, not you.

It was my tweet because the picture was too large to upload. I agree with you, it is effectively a 3-4 with the SS playing as a hybrid linebacker/safety and the DTs pinched inside and the linebackers on the line of scrimmage. I merely called it a 5-1 because there are five men on the LOS and one inside linebacker. But I'm not married to the name. The point of my post was to highlight the hybrid nature of the formation and it's effectiveness at utilising players that might not marry up to the conventional prototypes of the formation (note: this whole idea started off as a post in the draft forum about how my ideas about who to scout have changed).

 

[jah]

It was my tweet because the picture was too large to upload. I agree with you, it is effectively a 3-4 with the SS playing as a hybrid linebacker/safety and the DTs pinched inside and the linebackers on the line of scrimmage. I merely called it a 5-1 because there are five men on the LOS and one inside linebacker. But I'm not married to the name. The point of my post was to highlight the hybrid nature of the formation and it's effectiveness at utilising players that might not marry up to the conventional prototypes of the formation (note: this whole idea started off as a post in the draft forum about how my ideas about who to scout have changed).

I think the biggest takeaway from all this is that it's pretty much pointless to focus on the antiquated 3-4/4-3 binary.

 

[maineman209]

I think the biggest takeaway from all this is that it's pretty much pointless to focus on the antiquated 3-4/4-3 binary.

That's pretty much how I feel about the #1, #2, #3 cornerback nomenclature - antiquated.

 

[maineman209]

I'm not disputing Scar didn't have a significant say. But DeGuglielmo liked heavier interior linemen. We drafted heavier under him. It may have been something like this:
DeGuglielmo scouts the linemen and makes a list of candidates he thinks fits what he wants to do with the line. Then Scar scouts those linemen and gives his evaluation of them. Then there could be some discussion between DeGuglielmo and Scar but ultimately a Scar approved list of prospects is generated. Finally, Bill uses/considers that list during the draft.

IIRC, there was also discussion at the time of the Pats incorporating a higher percentage of man/power blocking for the ground game, which seems to benefit from heftier interior OL. James White was drafted that year out of a man/power scheme at Wisconsin and had a lot of trouble at the practices I attended anticipating where the holes would open in the zone blocking.

 

[50-yard-line]

So a prove-it deal, but if he proves it, he's here for three more years at the money the Pats already negotiated.

Come on, big Guy, break out!