Darrelle Revis just got destroyed

[Ring 6]

Did anyone say he was "the best CB in the NFL" Andy? I said he was a very good CB. I also said he isn't worth the money the Jets are paying him. In fact NO CB is worth that much. But to say, like some people implied, that Greene was beating him like a rug, is just disingenuous. .

Didn't you say that you didn't watch the game?
How can you call someone who says Green was torching Revis (on his way to 12 carches for 180 yards) disingenuous when your opinion is based on not watching the game?
To clarify, if he beats him 12 times for 180 yards, its torched, whether he was in the vicinity or beaten by 5 yards. The job of a defender isn't to not be too far away while the guy catches pass after pass, its to defend the pass.

 

[IllegalContact]

Didn't you say that you didn't watch the game?
How can you call someone who says Green was torching Revis (on his way to 12 carches for 180 yards) disingenuous when your opinion is based on not watching the game?
To clarify, if he beats him 12 times for 180 yards, its torched, whether he was in the vicinity or beaten by 5 yards. The job of a defender isn't to not be too far away while the guy catches pass after pass, its to defend the pass.

the bigger head scratcher is the notion of self-deprivation by not watching football has any real value

Revis looked like crap......I watched most of the game .... in fact, I watched probably 75% of possible football available this weekend

 

[RobertWeathers]

No problem just having a discussion. I'm surprised you have suddenly become Mr PFF.

A discussion is fine. An argument when it is hopeless in convincing the other side that they are wrong is not really worth it. You are trying to convince me that PFF is worthless trash and I don't agree. I like you as a poster but you need to ease up a bit on the convincing stuff.

For the record. I do not subscribe to PFF but I think their ability to collect raw stats has improved. The other stuff like ratings and other sabremetrics I take with a grain of salt. I've crossed checked it with the stuff Jeff Howe does and it seems pretty close to me. I understand the raw stats can certainly have some inaccuracies but overall I think they do a decent job and there is nothing else out there that is as good (which may not be saying much).

 

[goheels22002]

No it is not, not for a defender. Unless you know the coverage, how do you assign a target to a defender? Who was the defender on the Hogan TD? Who 'got that target"? The corner sat like he had a short zone, and the safety was nowhere to be seen. Who that target, catch, 37 yards and TD is assigned to is an analytic.


All of their assessments are based upon the analysis. You are taking the numbers that come out of those assessments and using them to judge Revis as a top 5 corner because PFF wrote an article comparing him to 15 other corners they selected and said he was top 5 in stats based upon their analysis.
You are doing nothing to determine whether the corner is good other than quoting PFF contrived and flawed stats, and an article that didn't even say what you thought it did.
You have made zero comment about your determining whether he is a good corner or not, just saying he is top 5 based on stats and analysis that are solely created by PFF.




Once again, judging what defender is considered the 'target' is analysis. Those stats are not raw, they are manipulated by the judgment of PFF.

100% wrong. PFF is the only place that does that. They are the only place that uses passing stats as defender stats by using THEIR ASSESSMENT of who to charge the coverage to. If you do not know the coverage, how do you assess a large chunk of the plays, such as Hogans?
Comp % against is an opinion, and the only people who use that opinion statistic are PFF.


I don't know if they copyright it, but they are the only ones who use it. That is why I knew if was PFF garbage stat when you were denying it.
Official NFL stats are raw. Things that only PFF does is analysis.




But you agree they suck, unless it suits your purpose and then you agree with their assessment.
If their ratings are terrible, why would you have any confidence in their ability to determine who was in coverage? Granted there are many plays where it is clear, but there are far too many that are not to give any credence to their numbers.


Elite shouldn't even be in the discussion. Pretty much every top WR he faced lit him up (Dez Bryant didn't because he was injured and Kellen Moore was the QB). You have to watch the games and not rely on PFF. Good is subjective. I know I wouldn't want him one on one with a top WR all day if he was on my team, because the results speak for themselves. Against a team without a real #1, he seems to do fine, but I don't how he would do if they used him differently. I think what is obvious is that he simply can no longer take away a WR.

Good discussion. Revis' closing speed is diminished and he doesn't have the quick hips he had a few years ago. His coverage instincts are good. The Jets' front seven did a good job against the Bengals but the coverage schemes were simplistic.

Single coverage on a guy like AJ Green is dangerous, and ultimately cost the Jets the game along with missed opportunities on special teams. Nick Folk missed inside the 30 on a FGA and an extra point. Those 4 points make this discussion academic.

Dalton got sacked 7 times, but still had a 114 QBR and completed 12 of 13 to Green (10 targets when Green was covered by Revis.) Belichick/Patricia would have made sure somebody popped Green on every play to wear him down.

I look forward to seeing Brady pick on Revis who will get a steady diet of different receivers against the Patriots. Maybe it's time for Gronk to throw Revis out of the club.

 

[Ring 6]

A discussion is fine. An argument when it is hopeless in convincing the other side that they are wrong is not really worth it.

That's not about me it's about the argument you chose.

You are trying to convince me that PFF is worthless trash and I don't agree. I like you as a poster but you need to ease up a bit on the convincing stuff.

I don't know what you mean by convincing stuff.
Honestly I felt like you were basing a conclusion on data that you misunderstood the value of.

For the record. I do not subscribe to PFF but I think their ability to collect raw stats has improved. The other stuff like ratings and other sabremetrics I take with a grain of salt. I've crossed checked it with the stuff Jeff Howe does and it seems pretty close to me. I understand the raw stats can certainly have some inaccuracies but overall I think they do a decent job and there is nothing else out there that is as good (which may not be saying much).

I've never believed in the idea that being the only one who produces a stat gives credence to the stat.
I've disagreed with PFFs methods in assigning defender passing statistic going back at least 5 years.
You simply can't assign responsibilities to players when you don't know what their responsibility is. That is what creates the major flaws in all of their analysis. Just because they convert that analysis to a stat doesn't make it not analysis.
The hogan play is a perfect example. PFF will "credit" that catch td and 37 yards to someone but it will be based in a guess by analysts who have proven to not understand the game (proven by their ratings which all of the informed world find dubious).

All that aside I would expect an elite top 5 corner to be able to limit a top WR.
Revis faced 4 of them last year. 3 wrecked him with huge games and the 4th was an injured Bryant with Kellen Moore at QB.
I don't see the good game he played against a top guy who was healthy.
I'd think we would see some of those.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's not about me it's about the argument you chose.

I don't know what you mean by convincing stuff.
Honestly I felt like you were basing a conclusion on data that you misunderstood the value of.

I don't recall choosing an argument but thats ok. I recall making a statement and stating why I believe it. I don't recall trying to shoot holes in your beliefs because I really don't care to. Thats the difference.

I've never believed in the idea that being the only one who produces a stat gives credence to the stat.
I've disagreed with PFFs methods in assigning defender passing statistic going back at least 5 years.
You simply can't assign responsibilities to players when you don't know what their responsibility is. That is what creates the major flaws in all of their analysis. Just because they convert that analysis to a stat doesn't make it not analysis.
The hogan play is a perfect example. PFF will "credit" that catch td and 37 yards to someone but it will be based in a guess by analysts who have proven to not understand the game (proven by their ratings which all of the informed world find dubious).

Thats ok if you disagree with their methods but some don't. On the Hogan play I don't know WTF Williams was thinking but lining up in MtM and letting him get by when the FS is on the other side of the hashes was a major lapse by someone. We don't know where the f-up was but its reasonable to say he was in man coverage, got a crappy jam and let Hogan fly by. Based on the FS's alignment, we can assume he wasn't expecting to help over the top. Based on that play alone, it is very reasonable to conclude that Williams f-ed up.

All that aside I would expect an elite top 5 corner to be able to limit a top WR.
Revis faced 4 of them last year. 3 wrecked him with huge games and the 4th was an injured Bryant with Kellen Moore at QB.
I don't see the good game he played against a top guy who was healthy.
I'd think we would see some of those.

Thats fair.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't recall choosing an argument but thats ok. I recall making a statement and stating why I believe it. I don't recall trying to shoot holes in your beliefs because I really don't care to. Thats the difference.




Thats ok if you disagree with their methods but some don't. On the Hogan play I don't know WTF Williams was thinking but lining up in MtM and letting him get by when the FS is on the other side of the hashes was a major lapse by someone. We don't know where the f-up was but its reasonable to say he was in man coverage, got a crappy jam and let Hogan fly by. Based on the FS's alignment, we can assume he wasn't expecting to help over the top. Based on that play alone, it is very reasonable to conclude that Williams f-ed up.



Thats fair.

Williams dropped into a short zone so we don't know if the safety wasn't where he was supposed to be or Williams played the wrong coverage. Clearly he didn't know he was in man.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Williams dropped into a short zone so we don't know if the safety wasn't where he was supposed to be or Williams played the wrong coverage. Clearly he didn't know he was in man.

Yea it does seem that he flashed man and fell into zone.

I'd be curious to know what PFF who pins the blown coverage on.

 

[Ring 6]

Yea it does seem that he flashed man and fell into zone.

I'd be curious to know what PFF who pins the blown coverage on.

That's the issue. They certainly think they can but how do you assess that? I would imagine an experienced coach could make an educated guess but the guys at PFF are just not football guys.
What about vs a zone? Especially in the seam? A screen? A pick play? There are also many throw aways these days (escaping pressure) how are thise charted?
I'm not so much curious how PFF decides those because the fact they exist makes trying to create defensive passing against stats flawed no matter what.

Like I said I don't believe in using a stat because it's the only one available when it's a contrived stat based upon assumptions and judgments.
It's the same with sack stats. Some are obvious who missed the block that led to the sack but many more are less clear. Do you charge a sack to a guy who blocked his man perfectly but the QB was flushed out of the pocket right to him?

Football really isn't a stat game because stats can't really be used effectively to rate a player like in baseball. Not to mention things like judging a QB on stats especially one who built thise stats in a loss and calling him better than a QB who had lesser stats while contributing to winning.

Ok end of my rant on stats and PFF.

 

[zoostation]

I thought the Bills won the offseason in 2015.

I already crowned their ass. You can't just go and give it to the Jests.

yeah i think you're right. The Jills actually ended up beating the Rats in that exciting 2015 OSCG

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Tangent...

I was looking at the Spotrac page that showed career cash earnings and was curious and went over at looked at Brady's (Tom Brady). Anyone (@Miguel ?) happen to know what the $10,663 of "incentives" in 2015 were?

 

[Miguel]

Tangent...

I was looking at the Spotrac page that showed career cash earnings and was curious and went over at looked at Brady's (Tom Brady). Anyone (@Miguel ?) happen to know what the $10,663 of "incentives" in 2015 were?

That was performance-based pay not incentives.

Patriots CB Malcolm Butler earns additional $319k for 2015 season

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's the issue. They certainly think they can but how do you assess that? I would imagine an experienced coach could make an educated guess but the guys at PFF are just not football guys.
What about vs a zone? Especially in the seam? A screen? A pick play? There are also many throw aways these days (escaping pressure) how are thise charted?
I'm not so much curious how PFF decides those because the fact they exist makes trying to create defensive passing against stats flawed no matter what.

Like I said I don't believe in using a stat because it's the only one available when it's a contrived stat based upon assumptions and judgments.
It's the same with sack stats. Some are obvious who missed the block that led to the sack but many more are less clear. Do you charge a sack to a guy who blocked his man perfectly but the QB was flushed out of the pocket right to him?

Football really isn't a stat game because stats can't really be used effectively to rate a player like in baseball. Not to mention things like judging a QB on stats especially one who built thise stats in a loss and calling him better than a QB who had lesser stats while contributing to winning.

Ok end of my rant on stats and PFF.

Coming back to this because its a great discussion.

In the Zolak/BB film study, BB pointed out how the FS stayed CF but Jimmy slid him over to the right side before he fired the strike to Hogan.

In that example, I have no earthly idea how PFF, you or me can pin the blame on the DB or CB on that play. Maybe the FS for biting hard but I dunna know...

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Two weeks in a row. Ouch.

 

[Ring 6]

Coming back to this because its a great discussion.

In the Zolak/BB film study, BB pointed out how the FS stayed CF but Jimmy slid him over to the right side before he fired the strike to Hogan.

In that example, I have no earthly idea how PFF, you or me can pin the blame on the DB or CB on that play. Maybe the FS for biting hard but I dunna know...

I don't think regular stats are a good way to judge football players (it's not baseball) so contrived ones like that, for reasons like mentioned, are hard to put much stock in.


On another note Toastvis beaten for 84 yard td by marquise Goodwin

 

[libra957]

Revis island is turning into a continent right in front of our eyes.

 

[AtomicDawg]

 

[meatface]

Two weeks in a row. Ouch.

It's one thing to get burned by AJ green and it's something else for some guy to do it

 

[AtomicDawg]

It's one thing to get burned by AJ green and it's something else for some guy to do it

Especially some guy who wouldn't be on the Bills roster if he went to the Rio Olympics....

 

[MrNathanDrake]

WOW Revis got burned again last night against the Bills.