Brady Second Circuit Judges: Parker, Katzmann, Chin

[Fencer]

Berman's case is only the arbitration process, he never had anything to do with the guilt or innocence.

You're more right than wrong (grammar aside). However, Berman had the option of saying that the original judgment was flawed as a matter of process. He didn't take it, for reasons that have been much discussed here. But he could have gone down that path if he chose, and he could hypothetically still do so on remand.

 

[Fencer]

Brady could have worn a needle on his wrist and deflated the balls himself, and a video could come out tomorrow showing it, and it would have no impact on the appeal.

Just to be clear -- I agree with that.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I might actually go to court to watch the argument. I have argued before all three but my argument before Judge Chin was when he was a District Court Judge. Parker didn't say much during my argument before him. Katzmann will fire questions at you if he is interested and he is wicked smart. Chin is slightly less intellectual but is street savvy and can pretty much figure out what's really going on. Chin really rewards you for a clear and concise argument. No way the NFL makes that in this case.

This is a pretty easy case. It will be affirmed unanimously and that has nothing to do with the panel. The NFL is going to file a cert petition with the Supreme Court. That's why Clement was retained as counsel. I suspect they will attempt to get the Court to overrule the law of the shop doctrine, though now that Scalia has passed away, they may rethink that strategy. Of course, even if that happened, there is the remainder of the decision which is almost as difficult to overcome.

Great post. It's funny that this site gets ripped by talking heads like Felger, Mazzerotti, etc... When in fact the amount of specific knowledge is unlike any other sports messageboard out there, at least imo. The amount of legal knowledge and physics knowledge that had been brought to this site in the last year has been off the charts. It's also a good sign that those in the know believe Brady got the draw he needed in CA2.

 

[Fencer]

Meanwhile, I've had an unpleasant thought.

Sometime after this year's draft, the NFL can give back next year's pick, not because the Pats are innocent, but because they've been good boys and sinned no more. The quid pro quo would be that the Krafts never comment on the matter again.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Not really. If there was a split in the Circuit Courts that they wanted to resolve or a prior SC decision they wanted to overrule, they would take the case regardless of the panel vote. I agree that they probably won't take this one, assuming there is a cert petition.

The Supreme Court routinely passes on death penalty habeas applications and cert petitions but takes securities or civil rights or other cases instead. The issue here wouldn't be deflated footballs. It would be how to apply federal labor arbitration procedures. It probably doesn't get four votes to grant cert, but who knows what the docket is like next year, who is on the Court, etc.

Breyer is a pats fan so that helps. He was a 1st circuit judge.

 

[Jackson 2]

Great post. It's funny that this site gets ripped by talking heads like Felger, Mazzerotti, etc... When in fact the amount of specific knowledge is unlike any other sports messageboard out there, at least imo. The amount of legal knowledge and physics knowledge that had been brought to this site in the last year has been off the charts. It's also a good sign that those in the know believe Brady got the draw he needed in CA2.

Since I don't listen to Vulger and Spazz, I didn't know they rip us. I think it's flattering. If those 2 ***holes are critical, something good must be going on here.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Since I don't listen to Vulger and Spazz, I didn't know they rip us. I think it's flattering. If those 2 ***holes are critical, something good must be going on here.

I don't listen either, I'm going on reports from others. I don't get that station here but wouldn't listen anyways.

 

[ReverendMaynard]

Meanwhile, I've had an unpleasant thought.

Sometime after this year's draft, the NFL can give back next year's pick, not because the Pats are innocent, but because they've been good boys and sinned no more. The quid pro quo would be that the Krafts never comment on the matter again.

Why would the NFL trade something for nothing? Kraft couldn't possibly be more ineffectual than he already is.

 

[DaBruinz]

I anticipate both the content and presentation of the NFL's argument to be significantly improved from the debacle in front of Judge Berman.

Umm.. Did you see the written arguments they submitted? They were worse than what they submitted to Berman. I have no faith that the NFL's presentation will be better because they've already shown it won't be..

 

[DaBruinz]

Quick PS: if the Chief Judge joins a 3--0 ruling upholding Berman, it is highly unlikely that the Supreme Court would even take the Case were the NFL to appeal again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the NFL can go to SCOTUS, they'd have to ask for an en banc ruling by all 13 (?) of the 2nd Circuit judges..

 

[DaBruinz]

You never answered my question about the Hinckley trial.

Who was/is his dad?

John Warnock Hinckley, Sr was/is John Warnock Hinckley, Jr.'s father..

 

[Ring 6]

You're more right than wrong (grammar aside). However, Berman had the option of saying that the original judgment was flawed as a matter of process. He didn't take it, for reasons that have been much discussed here. But he could have gone down that path if he chose, and he could hypothetically still do so on remand.

But this appeal is about his decision, so something he had the option to say is not part of the appeal.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the NFL can go to SCOTUS, they'd have to ask for an en banc ruling by all 13 (?) of the 2nd Circuit judges..

No, they don't. en banc proceedings are very rarely granted. I mean the NFL could try to petition the whole 2d circuit

 

[Todd Bradley]

They're not returning the picks.

They're not returning the picks if they win in court.

They're not returning the picks if they lose in court.

They're not going to even get a ruling prior to the draft, let alone exhaust the appeals process.

That crystal ball you got there seems to work wonders.


What's the powerball numbers for this weekend?

 

[Fencer]

But this appeal is about his decision, so something he had the option to say is not part of the appeal.

Shame, shame. You didn't perfectly memorize every post in every thread on this message board.

This branch of the discussion wasn't about the appeal itself, but rather about what might happen on remand.

 

[Todd Bradley]

I don't agree with you here.
This case isn't about the incident. It isn't about deflating footballs, or even Tom Brady's guilt.
For the purposes of this case he is assumed guilty, and the case is about the discipline, and the appeal process.
If Berman is confirmed, it only means that Brady should not have been suspended for deflating footballs because the notice he was given is held in the published penalties for equipment violations and non-cooperation and the precedent in how the league penalized others.

Brady could have worn a needle on his wrist and deflated the balls himself, and a video could come out tomorrow showing it, and it would have no impact on the appeal.

And I don't agree with you here.

Yes, the case is about due process, but that does not mean the other sanctions against the team aren't linked with this appeal, that's foolish to say.

No, if the appeal is thrown out, the Pats won't be getting their picks back as a result, that's obvious, but it highlights that the NFL has nothing to show for anything besides stolen picks and money for...absolutely nothing. They would have now lost twice and look absurd. The critics are coming around, I.E.: Peter King, and more will come out blasting them when the appeal is over.

The noise then grows louder and it would give Kraft the opening to grow some balls and stand up for himself. Whether he choose to act or not is the question. I doubt he will, but the opportunity would be there.

Sorry, the ruling has no impact on the loss of picks at all. While I don't believe the owners will let Goodell take it to the Supremes I do believe that Goodell will claim the courts got it wrong and there will be no change in the sanctions at all.

As I said above

 

[DaBruinz]

Sorry, the ruling has no impact on the loss of picks at all. While I don't believe the owners will let Goodell take it to the Supremes I do believe that Goodell will claim the courts got it wrong and there will be no change in the sanctions at all.

This would be the only reason that the judges ruling that it go back to Berman for a COMPLETE retrial would be a good thing. Because then it would open up the league to discovery and many things would be learned.. And I KNOW the NFL doesn't want that.. Because then there we would definitely see RICO charges being brought up afterwards..

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

It takes time to write up a decision. The judges' will go back and forth on the particular language to be used. Also they have previous cases to write up as well.

True. I'm just trying to keep a happy thought.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

We should be getting some nice breakdowns of the oral arguments:

Word out of the NYJFL HQ is that Clement gives great oral.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Not really. If there was a split in the Circuit Courts that they wanted to resolve or a prior SC decision they wanted to overrule, they would take the case regardless of the panel vote. I agree that they probably won't take this one, assuming there is a cert petition.

The Supreme Court routinely passes on death penalty habeas applications and cert petitions but takes securities or civil rights or other cases instead. The issue here wouldn't be deflated footballs. It would be how to apply federal labor arbitration procedures. It probably doesn't get four votes to grant cert, but who knows what the docket is like next year, who is on the Court, etc.

Maybe the Adrian Peterson case might cause such a split but I kind of doubt it.

I was being somewhat facetious with the death row example.