NFL's Integrity* on display again: league hid $100M+ from players to keep salary cap down

[RobertWeathers]

Again you are doing the same thing goodell/wells did.
They were supremely confident that the patriots knew they were breaking the rules. They knew the patriots had a history of not caring about rules. The balks were taken into a bathroom. By cheaters. The colts caught them with the int ball. They measured and the balls were under psi. They proceeded to treat them as guilty criminals BECAUSE THEY ARE THE PATRIOTS.

You can justify doing the same thing all you want but it is the same thing. You think you are right because you know how dishonest the league is. Exactly kensils approach to the pats.

Doesn't mean you are wrong but means you are disinterested in facts. That makes out fan base look no better than the boobs behind the shield.

You are frustrated that our fan base is in lynch-mode with any entity (NFL, Indy Peyton, NYJ) that has wronged the Pats in the past. I get it.

To say that I am not interested in the facts is BS. Ive been pretty consistent in spelling out what the WSJ article has detailed and applying my own professional experience to the matter and coming up with my interpretation of what they did/didn't do. I can assure you there isn't a shred of vindictiveness in my analysis.

The facts are pretty straightforward and maybe unlike others I am not treating this like Deflategate.

1) NFLPA auditors discovered the accounting discrepancy

2) The NFL denied it hadn't done anything wrong. However...

3) The CBA tells us that...
A.Players get 40 percent of ticket sales
B. Players get 45 percent from sponsorship revenue
C. Players get 55 percent from media deals and cash from NFL.com, the NFL Network and other such entities.
D. The league has several exemptions from the revenue sharing like money from personal seat licenses, premium seating, etc. The NFL/owners is allowed to take those funds any allocate them to revenue expenditures or earmark them for capital expenses. At any rate there is a process and governance involved as it relates to how financials are documented and reported. I'm assuming that the league's accounting practice is pretty standard for a F500 corp.

4)The audit found the NFL created an exemption it called the “waived gate” exemption, one that isn’t delineated in the agreement when in actually the revenue was from ticket sales. Are you going to make the claim that the NFL/owners bean counters did not know that money was from ticket sales and mistakenly created a "brand new" journal entry? Creating a new journal entry is not something that is randomly done by a single individual. Keep in mind by mislabeling the revenue there are also tax benefits/ramifications that the teams realize by doing so. My point: this was calculated and well-thought out. Plus how they classify revenue in the CBA is pretty straightforward. They did it properly for everything else and screw up on just this? Meh...

5) The NFL, refusing to act in good faith challenged the NFLPA's interpretation of the journal entry and seeing that they weren't getting to a satisfactory resolution took them to arbitration.

6) The NFL lost in a manner consistent to Tyson/Spinks in 1988 because it was so obvious to what they were doing.

If you want to categorize this event as the NFL taking advantage of a gray area and an honest mistake go ahead. I categorize it as the NFL (the owners really) knew exactly what they were doing and they did it for tax benefits and because they have a fundamental belief that they are entitled to the money to fix their stadiums when need be and it shouldn't come out of their pocket but rather the players and not some simple accounting oversight.

 

[Clonamery]

I'm not sure how the arbitrator deciding quickly makes it any more than the NFL was wrong and creates a conspiracy.

Ok. Carry on with your stubbornness...

 

[OhExaulted1]

If you want to categorize this event as the NFL taking advantage of a gray area and an honest mistake go ahead. I categorize it as the NFL (the owners really) knew exactly what they were doing and they did it for tax benefits and because they have a fundamental belief that they are entitled to the money to fix their stadiums when need be and it shouldn't come out of their pocket but rather the players and not some simple accounting oversight.

It was only $50 million of employee money that got "miscategorized". I'm sure if any of us worked for a company where that happened we wouldn't care. No big whoop, right?

 

[RobertWeathers]

The "accounting error" occurred in the office located at 345 Park Ave.: Fact
Roger Goodell, as Commissioner, is the COO of the entity located at 345 Park Ave.:Fact
Roger Goodell is responsible for the actions of his employees at 345 Park Ave.:Fact
You are defending Goodell.:Fact

"Ignorance is not an excuse" -Roger Goodell on the year long suspension of New Orleans coach Sean Payton after the BountyGate scandal.

In fairness to Andy's argument we don't know how much visibility Goody had in this or Tod Liewke (COO) or Joe Siclare the CFO (I suspect he did but who knows). We do know that a handful of owners huddled in 2013 and made a unilateral decision (without NFLPA approval) to take a portion of ticket revenue and have the NFL classify it as revenue that was earmarked for stadium improvements.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It was only $50 million of employee money that got "miscategorized". I'm sure if any of us worked for a company where that happened we wouldn't care. No big whoop, right?

What it does demonstrate is the NFL/Goody having a lack of control over the owners. In defense of @AndyJohnson I speculate that there were a handful of owners who needed the cash, strong-armed the NFL bean counters and had them cook the books because they needed money for stadium reno work. It is possible that the NFL said, "wait a minute you can't do that" but the owners said "make it so" and they did it hoping the NFLPA didn't notice. While the NFL wasn't trying to stick it to the NFLPA maliciously, they were trying to pull a fast one and being unethical and not above board in the process.

 

[OhExaulted1]

In fairness to Andy's argument we don't know how much visibility Goody had in this or Tod Liewke (COO) or Joe Siclare the CFO (I suspect he did but who knows). We do know that a handful of owners huddled in 2013 and made a unilateral decision (without NFLPA approval) to take a portion of ticket revenue and have the NFL classify it as revenue that was earmarked for stadium improvements.

I did know Liewke was the COO. I misrepresented Roger's designation. He's top dog below the owners though and ultimately the league steward. With that clarification out of the way, Andy's ill-advised defense of Goodell will most assuredly not be well received on this board or any other. He's universally despised.

 

[XLIX]

You have proven my point. People like you belittle the strength of the argument that the patriots were wronged on the basis of the facts of the case. Let's just promote the viewpoint NFL bad Goodell bad they do worst thing imaginable who needs proof. That will really legitimize the argument that the patriots were treated unfairly because the facts dispute the preconceived findings because we preconceive everything the NFL does is wrong without any facts.
Let's hope opinions like yours don't get heard outside if a forum like this.

You're obviously obsessed with having the last word and I'll let you have it so your childlike mind can sleep peacefully, but fact is this:

You are saying Roger Goodell deserves as much benefit of the doubt as Tom Brady. Good luck finding a single soul to agree with that logic 'round these parts.

 

[Ring 6]

The "accounting error" occurred in the office located at 345 Park Ave.: Fact
Roger Goodell, as Commissioner, is the COO of the entity located at 345 Park Ave.:Fact
Roger Goodell is responsible for the actions of his employees at 345 Park Ave.:Fact
You are defending Goodell.:Fact

"Ignorance is not an excuse" -Roger Goodell on the year long suspension of New Orleans coach Sean Payton after the BountyGate scandal.

Ok. Yeah that's what I'm doing.
I'm not at all saying it's hypocritical to rush to judgment without facts after we have dealt for a year with that being done to us.


You got me. I'm a great big goodell fan and I never think he could do anything wrong. It has nothing do with pats fans clowning themselves.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

What it does demonstrate is the NFL/Goody having a lack of control over the owners. In defense of @AndyJohnson I speculate that there were a handful of owners who needed the cash, strong-armed the NFL bean counters and had them cook the books because they needed money for stadium reno work. It is possible that the NFL said, "wait a minute you can't do that" but the owners said "make it so" and they did it hoping the NFLPA didn't notice. While the NFL wasn't trying to stick it to the NFLPA maliciously, they were trying to pull a fast one and being unethical and not above board in the process.

I am no defender of Goodell or the gang at 345 Park, but I agree that we have to remember that Goodell and the cronies that have been with him in recent years are essentially errand boys for the Owners. They are not paid to think. They are not paid to be creative. They are paid to do what they are told.

Goodell, himself, is paid what he is paid because the Owners rely on him to do their bidding and to keep the gravy train running revenue wise.

In the last two years, it's been clear that Goodell is in way over his head when it comes to managing the more complex issues that are associated with a multi-billion dollar entertainment enterprise. His skill set no longer fits the requirements of the job.

The skills the Owners thought they needed in a Commissioner were basically those of a guy who would manage lucrative media contracts and do what he was told in blind loyalty to them and "The Shield."

The skills they actually needed have turned out to be more nuanced. The fact that they hired Joe Lockhart to run communications indicates that they have figured that out. Lockhart is very good at what he does and has a power base outside of 345 Park. He's the kind of guy who could blow the whistle on the owners in a nano second, so their hiring him is a sign of their desperation.

And, if you analyze the Forbes data, which represents the only source of reasonably reliable numbers that we have on NFL franchises, there's little doubt that some of the Franchises are better off cash-flow wise than others, while all have seen significant increases in their paper value over the last few years. So your suggestion that some owners might have pushed Goodell to squeeze these dollars out of the players' budget is credible.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I'm sorry you must have missed it. Here it is....

Didn't miss anything, Kraft promised to fight and then rolled over and put his paws up. He apologized to patriot fans for it yet a number of people here want to keep claiming he did nothing wrong when in fact he admitted he did.

 

[Ring 6]

You're obviously obsessed with having the last word and I'll let you have it so your childlike mind can sleep peacefully, but fact is this:

You are saying Roger Goodell deserves as much benefit of the doubt as Tom Brady. Good luck finding a single soul to agree with that logic 'round these parts.

No I'm saying EVERYONE deserves the benefit of the doubt of basing their guilt in facts not your opinion of what they must have done when you have no clue what the facts are.

More likely than not what you guys assume probably happened but it's moronic to say you know it did because of a reputation. Again that's what happened to the patriots and doing it to a more deserving victim doesn't make it right.

You are arguing goodell is scum and dishonest so you are right. Does that mean Goodell, wells etc could rightfully say they believe by and Brady are scum and dishonest so that makes them right?

 

[Huckleberry1]

It was ticket sales, Andy. Not PSLs, branding or corp ad deals which is protected revenue.

I am supremely confident that the CBA contains no language whatsoever which allows for any form of gate revenue to be exempt from being considered "revenue". The owners tried to get away with it by believing the player's auditors would notice. That's it.

Please stop with the Patriots fans witch hunt stuff. The league and owners have a long track record of greed and shady behavior as it relates to the CBA and player behavior.

We are a jaded and persecuted fan base but in this instance it is so blatantly obvious it's not even a question as to their motivation and intent.

If there was a question why not operate in good faith and consult with the players or an arbitor before the fact and stay above board and foster trust?

You know why the chose not to take that path.

The owners negotiated a tv deal behind the players backs that paid them more to not play than to play in the lockout year. The judge hammered them for it. The players have to realize by now that the owners and Goodell cannot, be trusted.

 

[1960Pats]

I'd call it a gray area more than a malicious vile deception.
I know its popular to see the NFL as scum these days, but I don't think overreacting to everything they do helps. It belittles the argument about what is really wrong to turn every little thing into dishonest scumbaggerry.
This was a typical business move. If you don't think any corp in a similar situation would be liberal in how they define the accounting categories, I think you would be wrong. Its interpretation on books that are open to the NFLPA.
The fact that they call it an accounting issue, is normal PR, of someone who lost in arbitration. What would you like them to have said?

These are the type of things that I dislike the most about how corporations operate.
It's like a company that I read about a few years ago that was laying off employees while holding lavish parties worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for the executives, with the excuse that they were separate budgets.
I would imagine the same things are in place that allow the leaders of a company to play golf or donate to golf tournaments and call it a business expense.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I am no defender of Goodell or the gang at 345 Park, but I agree that we have to remember that Goodell and the cronies that have been with him in recent years are essentially errand boys for the Owners. They are not paid to think. They are not paid to be creative. They are paid to do what they are told.

Goodell, himself, is paid what he is paid because the Owners rely on him to do their bidding and to keep the gravy train running revenue wise.

In the last two years, it's been clear that Goodell is in way over his head when it comes to managing the more complex issues that are associated with a multi-billion dollar entertainment enterprise. His skill set no longer fits the requirements of the job.

The skills the Owners thought they needed in a Commissioner were basically those of a guy who would manage lucrative media contracts and do what he was told in blind loyalty to them and "The Shield."

The skills they actually needed have turned out to be more nuanced. The fact that they hired Joe Lockhart to run communications indicates that they have figured that out. Lockhart is very good at what he does and has a power base outside of 345 Park. He's the kind of guy who could blow the whistle on the owners in a nano second, so their hiring him is a sign of their desperation.

And, if you analyze the Forbes data, which represents the only source of reasonably reliable numbers that we have on NFL franchises, there's little doubt that some of the Franchises are better off cash-flow wise than others, while all have seen significant increases in their paper value over the last few years. So your suggestion that some owners might have pushed Goodell to squeeze these dollars out of the players' budget is credible.

Well said. I agree completely.

I also felt that the Lockhart hiring was out of desperation.

I also felt that Leiweke was a "we strongly suggest you hire this guy" move.

As you say there are a number of teams that aren't doing ok financially on their own and it kills them to share ticket revenue with rich teams and the players. Quite frankly, that is the bigger issue. Its not these individual teams asking the NFL to mislabel revenue from the players, its being unwilling to honestly state their revenue to the other teams. What I wonder is if the other teams knew that this practice was going on?

 

[OhExaulted1]

Didn't miss anything, Kraft promised to fight and then rolled over and put his paws up. He apologized to patriot fans for it yet a number of people here want to keep claiming he did nothing wrong when in fact he admitted he did.

An even bigger number here can't seem to recognize he was wronged and mislead. Selective memory, I suppose. As far as I'm concerned if your choosing sides you're choosing Roger and his henchmen at 345 Park Ave. over Bob and his Patriots at 1 Patriot Place.

Goodell is responsible for stealing our picks and no amount of typing from anyone will convince me this is not FACT. Kraft should never have been put in that position in the first place.

Any argument you throw out to the contrary, just as in this thread, I view as defending that s**tbag Goodell.

 

[Huckleberry1]

An even bigger number here can't seem to recognize he was wronged and mislead. Selective memory, I suppose. As far as I'm concerned if your choosing sides you're choosing Roger and his henchmen at 345 Park Ave. over Bob and his Patriots at 1 Patriot Place.

Goodell is responsible for stealing our picks and no amount of typing from anyone will convince me this is not FACT. Kraft should never have been put in that position in the first place.

Any argument you throw out to the contrary, just as in this thread, I view as defending that s**tbag Goodell.

Yes, and you support rape and child abuse.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Yes, and you support rape and child abuse.

The Patriots got raped and abused by Roger.

You support blaming the victim.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The Patriots got raped and abused by Roger.

You support blaming the victim.

You have to talk sh.t because you can't win the argument on the facts. Kraft is the one who stood by and supported Goodell while he f.cked the franchise, and he apologized for it. Every Patriot fan alive knew Goodell could not be trusted but Kraft was somehow "duped" by him, yet when he assigned blame for it he excused Goodell and instead blamed lawyers in the league office and has continued to pal around with him. You have no answer for this so instead you pretend that criticizing Kraft means support for Goodell, when in fact you know full well that those criticizing Kraft were the ones who said Goodell could never be trusted.

To be clear yet again I don't hate Kraft and in fact think he is the best owner the Patriots have ever had and Have said so many times and been criticized for it. However I do believe that Kraft's need to be part of the billionaires boys club has led him to make some bad decisions, including his defense of Goodell on Ray Rice, telling Jones and Snyder to suck it up and take their sanctions, and captitualting on Deflategate. After what Goodell did to them on Spygate there is no excuse whatsoever for being "duped" by Goodell again. You can continue to pretend that Kraft is above reproach all you want but even he knows it isn't true.

 

[OhExaulted1]

You have to talk sh.t because you can't win the argument on the facts. Kraft is the one who stood by and supported Goodell while he f.cked the franchise, and he apologized for it. Every Patriot fan alive knew Goodell could not be trusted but Kraft was somehow "duped" by him, yet when he assigned blame for it he excused Goodell and instead blamed lawyers in the league office and has continued to pal around with him. You have no answer for this so instead you pretend that criticizing Kraft means support for Goodell, when in fact you know full well that those criticizing Kraft were the ones who said Goodell could never be trusted.

To be clear yet again I don't hate Kraft and in fact think he is the best owner the Patriots have ever had and Have said so many times and been criticized for it. However I do believe that Kraft's need to be part of the billionaires boys club has led him to make some bad decisions, including his defense of Goodell on Ray Rice, telling Jones and Snyder to suck it up and take their sanctions, and captitualting on Deflategate. After what Goodell did to them on Spygate there is no excuse whatsoever for being "duped" by Goodell again. You can continue to pretend that Kraft is above reproach all you want but even he knows it isn't true.

Let me preface this by saying I respect you as a poster in general. We may not see eye to eye on this one, but that's OK. Differing opinions are part of the boards function. With that being said you did strike a nerve saying I support rapists and child abusers. I'm the loving father of an awesome 9-year old boy. Too much guy. I've got a thick skin, but that's wayyyy over the top and uncalled for.

As far as Kraft goes I was disappointed he capitulated and I don't think he's beyond reproach but at the same time the entire episode should never have reached this point. He didn't call him out by name but he might as well have in the fan apology. The hug at the Giants game was Jonathan, not Bob, although it was still vomit worthy. Purportedly Bob and Roger "hugged it out" in May at a birthday party. Report: Goodell, Kraft have spoken, hugged recently

Although only the 2 of them really know what was discussed after the long chat on the couch it can lead to alot of speculation as to what Roger said in terms of Brady's excessive penalty. I believe he gave intimations that he would soften on Brady. Once he waited long enough for Kraft's appeal to pass the statute of limitations, he was all set to deny Tom's appeal. I believe Kraft got played. Rogers lucky Myra isn't still around.

My line of thinking is Roger is responsible for us losing the picks. Public recognition of his unfairness grows daily this offseason and especially as the draft approaches. The sports medias voice outlining this injustice will only continue to grow louder as the draft approaches. We were never going to get those picks back anyway. More probable than not an appeal would still be tied up in a court long after this draft comes and goes had Kraft filed suit. And I believe the growing groundswell of support now happening would just be considered sour grapes by cheaters instead of the victim of injustice as we are now beginning to be viewed.

Everyone is beginning to recognize this is BS and with another slimy scandal of attemting to rip off players now swarming around 345 Park Ave. public opinion of Roger and his henchmen is taking center stage. Why would a entity worth a collective $63 billion dollars want to look like such sleazeballs over $120 million dollars? They have their Chris Carter fall guy. Lets hope the owners use it.

 

[Huckleberry1]

OE, I respect you as a poster as well and the remark was hyperbole and not intended as personal. If you took it that way my apology, however I made it because you have called those critical of Kraft "Goodell supporters" literally dozens of times when you know its an outright lie and that they are in fact more vitriolic in their hate for Goodell than they ever have been Kraft. I have been completely reasonable on Kraft but I think its ridiculous to pretend he didn't f.ck up when he in fact apologized for it.