NFL's Integrity* on display again: league hid $100M+ from players to keep salary cap down

[XLIX]

Frankly, we both have nowhere near the full set of facts.
My point was trashing the NFL over every little thing and making every assumption against them is like us being Ted Wells, and we look like whiners who refuse to see there are 2 sides.
I think it takes away from the focus on whats really wrong, but go ahead bash away.

That's a bankrupt analogy. Tom Brady has never done a damn thing wrong. The NFL is as corrupt of a sports league as you will find. So refusing to get the NFL the benefit of the doubt here is not behaving like Ted Wells did to Brady.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Frankly, we both have nowhere near the full set of facts.
My point was trashing the NFL over every little thing and making every assumption against them is like us being Ted Wells, and we look like whiners who refuse to see there are 2 sides.
I think it takes away from the focus on whats really wrong, but go ahead bash away.

Thats fine.

What do you think is really wrong?

My Take: Its not Goodell and in the arbitrator's ruling he provided his view.

 

[Ring 6]

It is the deliberately misappropriation of funds that someone is responsible for. If you don't see how this is embezzlement if it was done deliberately, then I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't know what embezzlement is.

You're right none of us know the details, but I know the NFL has a history of lying and deceiving. So they get no benefit of the doubt in my book. If you want to foolishly believe this was just an accident, then enjoy living in imaginary land.

Embezzlement is an individual stealing money from an organization.
Having a disagreement about the proper way to categorize expense on your books, which are then used to calculate and agreement with another party, under an agreement where the other party has access to those books, is not in the same universe as embezzlement.

Look, the NFL does a lot of crap that there is proof of, why look like you can't think critically by jumping to the conclusion that their accountants are baby killers because they were found to be wrong about an item?

 

[Ring 6]

That's a bankrupt analogy. Tom Brady has never done a damn thing wrong. The NFL is as corrupt of a sports league as you will find. So refusing to get the NFL the benefit of the doubt here is not behaving like Ted Wells did to Brady.

Of course it is. You find guilt then try to fit the facts in. You just said it yourself.

I get it, you hate the NFL. That does not mean that everything they do is an atrocity, and claiming so takes away credibility from the real issues.

 

[XLIX]

Embezzlement is an individual stealing money from an organization.

And if one accepts that the NFL deliberately misappropriated the funds, as most of the rest of us do, then that's exactly what the NFL did (keeping in mind that the embezzling party does not necessarily have to be one single person, legally it may also include groups of individuals).

You're obviously hell-bent on giving the league the benefit of the doubt. Good luck influencing people on this board with that. Given what I know about their incredibly corrupt management style and activities historically, I choose to give them ZERO benefit of the doubt.

 

[Ring 6]

Thats fine.

What do you think is really wrong?

My Take: Its not Goodell and in the arbitrator's ruling he provided his view.

Whats really wrong is conducting a witch hunt, fitting 'evidence' to the assumed crime, paying millions to an attorney to conduct a bs investigation to get the answer you wish was true, screwing the franchise and the GOAT, and continuing to stubbornly stick to the penalties when it is obvious nothing untoward happened. Plus having a league office full of agenda driven miscreants who failed in other jobs an are now on a mission to exact revenge. Having a lead counsel who deceives the team that is being investigated, and in fact lies directly to them. Being a league that knows that players are at risk, and lying their way around it.
That's a good start.

Perhaps we have enough real scumbaggerry that we don't need to look like agenda driven fans on every issue that comes up, including one about how the accounts run the books.

 

[Ring 6]

And if one accepts that the NFL deliberately misappropriated the funds, as most of the rest of us do, then that's exactly what the NFL did (keeping in mind that the embezzling party does not necessarily have to be one single person, legally it may also include groups of individuals).

They didn't misappropriate funds.
There are numerous types of revenue that are withheld from the cap calculation because they are used for stadium improvement. The NFL felt a certain type belonged in that group, so they used that in their calculation. The NFLPA disagreed, and they arbitrated.

This isn't money laundering. Its a disagreement on a financial calculation of what constitutes revenue for purposes of setting the cap. Its no more embezzlement than claiming an expense as deductible when it technically isn't.

You're obviously hell-bent on giving the league the benefit of the doubt. Good luck influencing people on this board with that. Given what I know about their incredibly corrupt management style and activities historically, I choose to give them ZERO benefit of the doubt.

My point is that you look like Peter calling wolf when every time an NFL story comes up its treated like they are serial killers.
And, your comment is what Goodell and Wells did approaching Sciencegate. The Patriots were proven cheaters so they must be guilty, so lets frame the evidence to show what we know but can't prove.

I would think that as a Pats fan you would come down on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, because, you know, it is the intelligent approach.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Whats really wrong is conducting a witch hunt, fitting 'evidence' to the assumed crime, paying millions to an attorney to conduct a bs investigation to get the answer you wish was true, screwing the franchise and the GOAT, and continuing to stubbornly stick to the penalties when it is obvious nothing untoward happened. Plus having a league office full of agenda driven miscreants who failed in other jobs an are now on a mission to exact revenge. Having a lead counsel who deceives the team that is being investigated, and in fact lies directly to them. Being a league that knows that players are at risk, and lying their way around it.
That's a good start.

Perhaps we have enough real scumbaggerry that we don't need to look like agenda driven fans on every issue that comes up, including one about how the accounts run the books.

Yes but the core problem is the owners that enable the behavior and empower the buffoons, lackeys and empty suits. How Gardi, Kensil and Blandio have 6 to 7 figure jobs is beyond me.

The accounting issue was the owner's charge and you are kidding yourself if you think it was an innocent mistake. I know you are trying to be balanced on the issue but there isn't any balance to be found. The owners unilaterally wanted to shave some cash off the revenue pie for their own stadium improvements and the NFL let it go because they kinda have to and they have Goody to fight the battle for them. I'm willing to bet you can add Bob to that list of purps as Gillette underwent some renovations (end-zone areas, new offices) in the timeframe in question.

 

[BTTA]

The part in bold is what I disagree with...

Thanks for the explanation and the civility.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes but the core problem is the owners that enable the behavior and empower the buffoons, lackeys and empty suits. How Gardi, Kensil and Blandio have 6 to 7 figure jobs is beyond me.

Well, I put that on Goodell. That is his team, his boys, his management team.
We can all agree that Goodell is just not capable of having this job. He cannot staff properly, virtually ever senior employee in his organization is inept. He looks like a buffoon in court. 2 judges have said they don't think he understands the CBA. He needed Kraft to jump in to avert work stoppage. He cannot put together a discipline system that looks anything but foolish. He consistently doesn't understand that public relations impact of his decisions until after they are done, and done wrong. He lies about concussions, CTE, and tries to subvert research.
I think the owners know this, but I think they are afraid to make a change. Why? Who is their opponent? Their enemy? It isn't the fans or the general public, they have them locked up with the product on Sunday. Its not each other. It is the PLAYERS. The owners biggest enemy, biggest risk to profits is the players and the NFLPA. The one thing Goodell has done is ruled that relationship, and won on every turn (other than the court cases on discipline because he's a moron and as soon as a judge is involved he is certain to lose) The owners keep Goodell because he has the NFLPA by the balls. Unfortunately the owners don't realize that is because of the NFLPA and has little or nothing to do with Goodell and a competent commissioner would have that, without all the feckups.

The accounting issue was the owner's charge and you are kidding yourself if you think it was an innocent mistake. I know you are trying to be balanced on the issue but there isn't any balance to be found. The owners unilaterally wanted to shave some cash off the revenue pie for their own stadium improvements and the NFL let it go because they kinda have to and they have Goody to fight the battle for them. I'm willing to bet you can add Bob to that list of purps as Gillette underwent some renovations (end-zone areas, new offices) in the timeframe in question.

I just don't see this as slimy. There are numerous items that are excluded. They took an aggressive approach toward that definition. I would expect a business to do that.
You are acting like they stuffed the revenue in the mattress, and entered in the books as 'miscellaneous money the NFLPA doesn't need to know about'. They didn't hide it. It was out in the open, under a system where the NFLPA has a right to review and question.

The CBA states that money from certain sources set aside for stadiums repairs is to be handled this way. (I would imagine it includes language like 'such as' but don't care enough about this to look)
The issue isn't deducting the money for stadium improvements, that was agreed upon by the NFLPA. Its the CATEGORY of the money. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they screwed themselves and could have taken it from different revenue and it would be fine.

Making comments like they stole the money for stadium improvements is like saying taping signals is illegal without stating that it only is if it is done from the wrong place.

 

[Zeus]

The owners tried to cook the books in their favor and nearly got away with it. Seems like business as usual to me.

Illegal? Hard to say without more information.

Unethical? What do you think?

You'd have to be extremely gullible to think that this was an innocent mistake. From the players' point of view, this will do nothing to lessen the massive level of distrust and animosity they feel toward ownership.

I would expect the relationship between the players and owners to continue to deteriorate. A lot of this is directly attributable to the actions of the commissioner with respect to disciplinary matters, his callous disregard for player safety and the outrageous amount of money he pulls out of the league. If your actions consistently show that all you care about is money, you can't very well expect the benefit of a doubt in situations like this. People are going to believe the worst. Roger has no one to blame but himself.

The NFL's attempt to characterize this as a bookkeeping oversight is laughable, especially after they went to arbitration to try to justify their actions. This is another arrow in the quiver for De Smith to rile up the rank and file whenever the time comes.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

 

[Ring 6]

The owners tried to cook the books in their favor and nearly got away with it. Seems like business as usual to me.

Illegal? Hard to say without more information.

Unethical? What do you think?

You'd have to be extremely gullible to think that this was an innocent mistake. From the players' point of view, this will do nothing to lessen the massive level of distrust and animosity they feel toward ownership.

I would expect the relationship between the players and owners to continue to deteriorate. A lot of this is directly attributable to the actions of the commissioner with respect to disciplinary matters, his callous disregard for player safety and the outrageous amount of money he pulls out of the league. If your actions consistently show that all you care about is money, you can't very well expect the benefit of a doubt in situations like this. People are going to believe the worst. Roger has no one to blame but himself.

The NFL's attempt to characterize this as a bookkeeping oversight is laughable, especially after they went to arbitration to try to justify their actions. This is another arrow in the quiver for De Smith to rile up the rank and file whenever the time comes.

Not busting your balls, but given that you don't know the real facts, reread your post from the perspective of the league is the Patriots, and the issue is Sciencegate.
Many people, including the league, felt the Patriots didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt regardless of the facts.

Here, I copied your post and changed the perspective. (changes in caps)

The owners PATRIOTS tried to cook the books ALTER THE FOOTBALLS in their favor and nearly got away with it. Seems like business as usual to me.

Illegal? Hard to say without more information.

Unethical? What do you think?

You'd have to be extremely gullible to think that this was an innocent mistake. From the players' LEAGUES point of view, this will do nothing to lessen the massive level of distrust and animosity they feel toward ownership. BELICHICK AND THE PATRIOTS

I would expect the relationship between the players NFL and owners PATRIOTS to continue to deteriorate. A lot of this is directly attributable to the actions of the commissioner BILL BELICHICK AND THE PATRIOTS with respect to disciplinary matters, his callous disregard for player safety FOLLOWING THE RULES and the outrageous amount of money he pulls out of the league. CHEATING THAT GOES ON IN NEW ENGLAND If your actions consistently show that all you care about is money, WINNING you can't very well expect the benefit of a doubt in situations like this. People are going to believe the worst. Roger BELICHICK has no one to blame but himself.

The NFL's BELICHICKS attempt to characterize this as a bookkeeping oversight SCIENCE is laughable, especially after they went to arbitration to try to justify their actions. CONDUCTRED AND INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION THAT FOUND THEM GUILTY. This is another arrow in the quiver for De Smith GODDELL to rile up the rank and file OWNERS whenever the time comes.

See, in essence you are playing the part of Gregg Doyel in assuming everything is what you wish it would be because it makes the people you don't like look bad.

This is my point. Aren't WE supposed to be better than that?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, I put that on Goodell. That is his team, his boys, his management team.
We can all agree that Goodell is just not capable of having this job. He cannot staff properly, virtually ever senior employee in his organization is inept. He looks like a buffoon in court. 2 judges have said they don't think he understands the CBA. He needed Kraft to jump in to avert work stoppage. He cannot put together a discipline system that looks anything but foolish. He consistently doesn't understand that public relations impact of his decisions until after they are done, and done wrong. He lies about concussions, CTE, and tries to subvert research.
I think the owners know this, but I think they are afraid to make a change. Why? Who is their opponent? Their enemy? It isn't the fans or the general public, they have them locked up with the product on Sunday. Its not each other. It is the PLAYERS. The owners biggest enemy, biggest risk to profits is the players and the NFLPA. The one thing Goodell has done is ruled that relationship, and won on every turn (other than the court cases on discipline because he's a moron and as soon as a judge is involved he is certain to lose) The owners keep Goodell because he has the NFLPA by the balls. Unfortunately the owners don't realize that is because of the NFLPA and has little or nothing to do with Goodell and a competent commissioner would have that, without all the feckups.

Emphatically agree. He is by far the worst of the 4 commissioners of US-based major sports.

Personally I think Leiweke is waiting in the wings. Allen and other owners forced him on Goody.

I just don't see this as slimy. There are numerous items that are excluded. They took an aggressive approach toward that definition. I would expect a business to do that.

You are acting like they stuffed the revenue in the mattress, and entered in the books as 'miscellaneous money the NFLPA doesn't need to know about'. They didn't hide it. It was out in the open, under a system where the NFLPA has a right to review and question.

The CBA states that money from certain sources set aside for stadiums repairs is to be handled this way. (I would imagine it includes language like 'such as' but don't care enough about this to look)
The issue isn't deducting the money for stadium improvements, that was agreed upon by the NFLPA. Its the CATEGORY of the money. I wouldn't be surprised to find out they screwed themselves and could have taken it from different revenue and it would be fine.

Making comments like they stole the money for stadium improvements is like saying taping signals is illegal without stating that it only is if it is done from the wrong place.

Moving revenue from one BU to another to show financial heath, deferring income, not accruing depreciation, etc are all gray-area financial/accounting practices. That is understood and acceptable to the less-than-choir boy CPA or CFO.

My contention is that the owners influenced the NFL book keepers to "reclassify" revenue and create a new entry so they didn't have to dip into their coffers for stadium reno work. With the NFL having a troop of CBA compliance officers on staff, they knew what they were doing- which was violating the CBA. What is also says is that the NFLPA's audit team are idiots as they were doing this since 2013.

My point: Just because you can get away with something that is in bad faith doesn't mean you should do it. Thats how these owners think. You said it yourself. The players are the enemy and it makes them sick to fork over a dollar to the players if they don't have to.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The basic financial model of the NFL is that two parties, the owners and the players, work together to create revenue. That total revenue is split between them. The more revenue there is, the more money they both make. Every few years, they sit down to negotiate about who gets how much, but that's just an argument about pennies on the dollar. The basic structure of the NFL is this partnership between the two. The fans are the people they are both getting the money from; we are their target.

The most basic imbalance in this relationship is that the owners also profit when the value of their franchise increases, thus providing them (in recent years) a greater benefit than the players from NFL success. That's always struck me as the achilles heel in the relationship, as resentment over that is going to eat at the players.

Well said!
Fuel to the fire: The combined value of the 32 NFL franchises by Forbes most recent estimate? $70 billion.
That wealth is not being created by the management skills of the owners and it's certainly not being created by the corrupt dunces at 345 Park, led by the Dunce In Chief. It's being created by the Coaches and Players who make it happen 256 times a season.
Something has gone very wrong in the last few years. Like every market that has gone off course, this market will have to be corrected. I have no idea what form this correction will take, but do know that an old Wall Street adage will apply in this case: "What cannot continue must end."

 

[XLIX]

They didn't misappropriate funds.

Those of us familiar with the inner workings of the NFL office realize that they tried to misappropriate funds, hoped no one would notice, but got caught.

This isn't money laundering. Its a disagreement on a financial calculation of what constitutes revenue for purposes of setting the cap. Its no more embezzlement than claiming an expense as deductible when it technically isn't.

What the NFL did is embezzlement. What you describe is Income Tax Evasion, which is a federal crime.

My point is that you look like Peter calling wolf when every time an NFL story comes up its treated like they are serial killers.

Sure thing, buddy. It was aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall just an honest mistake. Could've happened to anyone. Because #integrity.

I would think that as a Pats fan you would come down on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, because, you know, it is the intelligent approach.

Yes, folks, this person honestly truly just said that giving the NFL League office the benefit of the doubt is the "intelligent approach."

ROFLFLFLFLFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Ring 6]

Emphatically agree. He is by far the worst of the 4 commissioners of US-based major sports.

Personally I think Leiweke is waiting in the wings. Allen and other owners forced him on Goody.



Moving revenue from one BU to another to show financial heath, deferring income, not accruing depreciation, etc are all gray-area financial/accounting practices. That is understood and acceptable to the less-than-choir boy CPA or CFO.

My contention is that the owners influenced the NFL book keepers to "reclassify" revenue and create a new entry so they didn't have to dip into their coffers for stadium reno work. With the NFL having a troop of CBA compliance officers on staff, they knew what they were doing- which was violating the CBA. What is also says is that the NFLPA's audit team are idiots as they were doing this since 2013.

My point: Just because you can get away with something that is in bad faith doesn't mean you should do it. Thats how these owners think. You said it yourself. The players are the enemy and it makes them sick to fork over a dollar to the players if they don't have to.

But your entire argument is based upon that it was done in bad faith.
Do you not see how a patriot fan "convicting" the NFL on a gut feeling is hypocritical?

 

[Ring 6]

Those of us familiar with the inner workings of the NFL office realize that they tried to misappropriate funds, hoped no one would notice, but got caught.[\quote]
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were familiar with the inner workings of the NFL offices. Sorry. How long have you worked there? Or have you been investigating them or auditing the books?

You sound like deflatehaters who knew the patriots were guilty because everyone knows how they operate.

What the NFL did is embezzlement. What you describe is Income Tax Evasion, which is a federal crime.[\quote]
Omg. No it is not embezzlement. They didn't take any money. Not much point in having a discussion of you don't know the meaning of the words you do.
And no taking an incorrect deduction is not income tax evasion.

Sure thing, buddy. It was aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall just an honest mistake. Could've happened to anyone. Because #integrity.[\quote]
You don't know the facts. You have decided the NFL is guilty of the worst possible scenario because you don't like them. You are being Ted Wells.

Yes, folks, this person honestly truly just said that giving the NFL League office the benefit of the doubt is the "intelligent approach."

ROFLFLFLFLFLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Giving ANYONE the benefit of the doubt is the intelligent thing to do but feel free to think that convicting without facts is the right approach. I guess you were a kraitz mort believer, or do facts only matter when you are in the side of the accused?

 

[RobertWeathers]

But your entire argument is based upon that it was done in bad faith.
Do you not see how a patriot fan "convicting" the NFL on a gut feeling is hypocritical?

Andy the arbitrator took about as long to rule on the issue as it does to brew a pot of coffee. It was that cut n dry.

Being a hypocrite on this issue is saying that this is a straightforward issue when its actually a witch hunt. Clearly that is not the case here.

It was a blatent disregard for the CBA and the agreement and relationship with the NFLPA.

 

[XLIX]

Giving ANYONE the benefit of the doubt is the intelligent thing to do but feel free to think that convicting without facts is the right approach. I guess you were a kraitz mort believer, or do facts only matter when you are in the side of the accused?

Now now, don't try to spin this. You're making a complete fool of yourself by saying we should all give the NFL Office the benefit of the doubt, and I'm actually rather enjoying it. All I did was give you enough rope to hang yourself. It's not my fault you eagerly obliged.

Did I give Tom Brady the benefit of the doubt? Absolutely. He has an impeccable reputation.
Do I give the NFL Office the benefit of the doubt? No f-ing way. They are confirmed slimebags.