Does Bill have a plan, or is he in "whatever" mode?

[PatsFanInVa]

The highest level of sports, whether football or otherwise, is ALL about the proper allocation of financial resources.

I have come to believe that the 3 out of 4 super bowls was a combination of hitting the jackpot in terms of believing in Kid 199, superior coaching, and inspired play when it was most needed on the regular. A lot of luck in there.

But the reason the Pats have been to 2 more super bowls and however many more AFCCGs, and have been at the top of their division almost every year since then, has everything to do with "proper allocation of financial resources."

I fear the day Brady retires, and fear the day Belichick hangs 'em up just as much. But it might be the day the Krafts aren't the owners that we should all fear the most. With luck they'll have a long, long run. I'm not looking forward to a return to the Kiam era.

PFnV

 

[DW Toys]

I was more put off by the title of your thread than the content I think, because it's ludicrous to claim apathy on Bill's part. But that said, your response was fair, except for a few things:



I said no such thing. I simply proposed that perhaps Bill's plan is different from yours.



You choose to ignore the bottom of the roster, Bill does not. We made our big splashes in the secondary. There may be more coming, there may not be, but very few teams add more than 3 significant pieces through pricey free agents. The draft will, as it does almost every year, produce at least one contributing rookie. Not to mention the potential for draft day trades, camp cut signings, and the rest of FA which is still on-going.

Not being satisfied with the what has been done so far is fine. I'm sure Bill isn't done. But nothing you've said indicates the lack of a plan, only that the plan has not seen to completion a few weeks into free agency.

O.K. I am fine with your responses. Very fair.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Brian de la Puente

Argree.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Well, considering that you have, continuously, shown you have next to no concept of what team building is or means, have very little idea of what the defense does, what the offense does, and What the team does, I am not surprised with your comments.

The Pats movements have been ODD or lackadaisical. If anything, they have been very methodical. As always.



Your ignorance is astounding. They have this kid named Aaron Dobson that they added last year. He's 6'2 or so and 200 lbs. Pretty fast. Put up the best numbers of a rookie with Brady as the QB despite missing 4 games.

They also have another kid named Thompkins who showed fairly well last year. And a 3rd kid in Josh Boyce who seemed to be coming on before an injury knocked him out. You add them to Amendola and Edelman you you've got a corps of receivers that should get BETTER.

Lafell can play both the Y and Z receiver positions and play all the FLEX-TE routes as well. He also blocks extremely well for a receiver. Let's not forget that he's also 6'3 so he should be a good Red Zone threat as well. But, yeah, you can show that you know nothing about him and give the Pats an "F" because you have this love fest for a position that the Pats don't have on their team. That's right. Since BB has been here, they've never had a #1 WR. He's been asked numerous times and he's said so himself. Even when Moss was here, he wasn't Brady's primary target.



Why not Jared Allen? Gee. Maybe because they didn't want to give an aging DE that much money? You're such a hypocrite. You complain about Vince's age, but then you want Allen who is only 4 months younger than Vince. How would the team be BETTER with Allen and without Wilfork? Explain that in terms of how this team plays the 4-3 UNDER.



Angerer is worse than Spikes when it comes to both pass coverage and run coverage. Yet you want to add him??

Could you tell me how many Ferentz coached players the Patriots have had on their team? I'll even give you a hint. You can count them on one hand.




Another case of you talking before you think. Did you ever stop to think that the Ravens didn't let Daniels get a chance to talk to the Patriots? Nope. You didn't.

OH, and Daniels is coming off an injury, which is why they got him so cheap.



Considering your ignorance on players in the NFL, I am not surprised by your ignorance of college players. Connolly isn't over-priced and he's not nearly the sieve you claim him to be. Also, Wendell's contract is such that he can be CUT without much of a hit to the Pats.



Well, considering how you used to bash James Sanders and numerous others despite how the facts proved you wrong, I'm not surprised you consider Ridley over-rated. I liked Blount but have a strong feeling that once Talib was gone, Blount decided to not come back.



Actually, Chung is the better special teamer. Chung is back on a deal that makes him very easy to cut during training camp if he can't outplay someone like Ebner or Tavon Wilson. However, you make it sound like the Pats over-paid for him by millions upon millions.



If you are whining and complaining about the Pats not having done enough, then that is usually a good sign that they've done an excellent job.

Yes, Bill Belichick has a "clandestine" plan to improve this team. That's why you don't know or cannot fathom what it is. But then, you also fail to consider so many moving parts such as salary demands, the salary cap, player attitude towards coaches, player attitude towards the game, player background, etc, that it's easy to see why you are always confused and ignorant and making such silly threads as this one.

Thank you for your comments. Personal as usual. That is typical and should be expected. Whereas you are the best and expert at figuring out what the fan should want, and whereas you have a degree in internet Football GM school, I asked for a comment on the feelings of the offseason. Hence the word "or". To say that no one should be allowed to comment on whether the Pats did or did not make the right moves is astounding, but typical. I made suggestions about who might be available and as I hopefully eloquently explained, "in my humble opinion".

If I have offended you and the rest of your admirers and "Stepford" flock, I am heartfully sorry. I feel (notice the word usage "I") that some boxes have not been checked. I also left enough latitude to offer us perhaps this is a Draft issue to resolve a position....Did I not say that? The other G.M.s and Coaches get paid too, so they "sometimes" beat Mr. Bill when he does not pull the trigger in time or has a half hearted offer (see Goldson or Bryant as example). I know that doesn't seem right, but it happens. The term one might use is "snookered".

I also allowed that there was talent on the table that could be reached now or later and offered my personnel choices. If they do not match up with yours, so be it. What is your extension at Gillette so we can discuss?

I always know I can get a rise out of some of you.

Just to add some fuel. I said Dobson was injured and we did not know his immediate recovery time. Thompkins might be a flash in the pan because instead of getting better he got worse....Is that a fair statement? I also said Boyce was a wild card. Did you read this or just throwing stuff against the wall? If you want to tell me that there has never been a WR that is #1 sir, then Da Salute Mr. Randy Moss. La Fell=Jabar Gafney. Now there is nothing wrong with that but if all you haters want to say, DW he solves our WR issues and makes us better? I respect your opinion but beg to differ.

A few other retorts-Daniels has been on the market for a month so the Ravens signing was not a sneak attack. Chung versus Daniels is what I suggested as far as need and money. I said Daniels was needed more. You must disagree. Daniels could have played the last few games in 2103 from his broken leg. They kept him out of the 2013 disaster. This guy has made the Pro Bowl. He is a fifty catch guy. You prefer Chung..O.K. it is your opinion.

Connelly is one of the highest paid Guards in the NFL (please feel free to check)and has limited production. Anyone with knowledge will offer us that he is a good back up. Do you challenge that?

Angerer had 148 tackles in 2011 before his foot (now healed) and he is only 27. How does that compare to Spikes? No contest. I will give you both are mediocre on PD. Who's is better...Hightower at MLB? Nyet! Again, I am not writing the check for the player. Just a suggestion.

And finally....If there is anyone of the Stepford/Eloi Club that say the Jared Allen would have not made the 2014 Patriots a better ball club over Vince Wilfork coming back from a severe injury and knowing we need more pass rush, I disagree.

Can we vote on who makes (or would have) the Patriots (on paper) a better team in 2014 Wilfork or Allen? Point is we could have had them both after Wilfork signed and we had the CAP.

I tip my hat to you if your fan base says Wilfork sir.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Dear God DW - please keep in mind this is a team that was one game away from advancing to a Super Bowl, and it's hard not to believe they'll be better this year.

Answering your questions rather than just wringing my hands, here's what you need to consider:

Acquisitions they have that they won't need to make due to guys who were lost to injuries:

Defense:

Vince Wilfork - He may no longer be a super star, but he's certainly not a stiff, and if he's healthy he's more than adequate inside.

Tommy Kelly - A solid guy who paired with Wilfork again will certainly give them a good inside presence. For the first few games last season teams couldn't run on them. I forget the exact numbers, but I remember writing about it and will now have to dig them out thanks to your post.

Jerod Mayo - He's been their leading tackler and that's because he's got great instincts and is always around the football. Often overlooked because he's such a solid player.

Offense:

Rob Gronkowski - Obviously he'll be back and will likely be a few steps slower until late in the season as most guys are coming back off of a knee injury. But his blocking and his mere presence still makes him better than what many other teams have.

Danny Amendola - Anyone who has had to play through a bad groin knows that you're not as fast or as quick, regardless of how much rest you try and get during the season. A full offseason is going to do him wonders, and if we see the same guy we saw in preseason and the first regular season game through this season, it could be huge.

Aaron Dobson - It's already been talked about how Deion Branch had a quiet first year before coming into his own the following season and there's no reason to believe the same can't happen for Dobson. He was slowed by injuries down the stretch and hopefully by camp his foot will be healed and he'll be ready to go. He's going to be better this year, I can promise you that.

There are certainly others but I'm at work and don't have time to get too much deeper into it. But this is not a team with a bunch of stiffs and no talent. A lot of the moves they made were made with the idea that they'll have some of their own guys back next year, who are obviously pretty darn good. These short-sighted posts that lack big-picture perspective are a little puzzling, especially considering they'll likely be in the mix next January with a shot to win it all since I can't imagine they'll endure what they went through last year injury-wise. I'm sure they're also eyeing some guys in the draft who they feel will help also.

And yes, I believe you're grossly underestimating the effect of Revis and Browner in the secondary and the trickle-down effect that was mentioned - which hits it on the head in terms of making guys like Ninkovich and Jones more effective. When you force a QB to go through more than one read and make him hold onto the ball, it creates far more opportunities including turnovers, something they did well early on before losing Vince, Kelly, Mayo, etc. and before Talib got banged up.

But honestly, try and keep a little perspective. After all, it's April and there are still more cuts to come. Who knows? You might even actually enjoy the season.

These comments are accurate and fair. The Lord part was not so nice. I asked for a response if it was thought we did well so far for 2014 or was BB not playing close attention as he might have done in the past. We all slip at some point.

You are of the school that DBs are the key to sacks. I am of the school that Pass rush leads to better and easier pass defense. I love the DB additions. I wait for pas rush............My opinion was that Allen was a misstep. Again that is my opinion.

All those players above healthy make sense. I will be willing to bet BB still Drafts a WR. I am not sold on Dobson.....I hope I am dead wrong. I am under the impression that Amendola was a disappointment and not just of injury.

So the question to you Ian, right now at this second, are the 2014 Patriots a better Team than 2013?
Check off DB
No to:
O Line, D Line, LB as in MLB and that coverage guy Bill wants. We lost two LBs. WR (we replaced Collie with La Fell. I d rather have a healthy Collie) I think Boyce is a wild card and is Dobson going to even be ready, TE (???????), RB.

To sit here and hope that Draft picks can come in day one and help is not realistic (17%). They need years to develop. To say that pre season Cuts can fill holes is a gamble at best. I see Trades as viable but none of us know if there are deals in the making or knowledge of such. It's speculation.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Hicks uh do you mean Nicks?

Jackson got more guaranteed money than Decker and Wallace's contract isn't even worth mentioning or comparing.

Fitzgerald would be nice but Arizona would likely want too much in return I think.

Blackmon makes perfect sense I mean let's trade for a guy that might not even play next season but he's a name continually mentioned on this board for some reason.

The guy you completely failed to mention was Steve Smith if you think the F.O. "whiffed" but unfortunately signed with Baltimore his first visit.


Well I certainly think they will be better and don't see any reason why that shouldn't hold true.

Good post. DW Toys

 

[Ian]

These comments are accurate and fair. The Lord part was not so nice. I asked for a response if it was thought we did well so far for 2014 or was BB not playing close attention as he might have done in the past. We all slip at some point.

You are of the school that DBs are the key to sacks. I am of the school that Pass rush leads to better and easier pass defense. I love the DB additions. I wait for pas rush............My opinion was that Allen was a misstep. Again that is my opinion.

All those players above healthy make sense. I will be willing to bet BB still Drafts a WR. I am not sold on Dobson.....I hope I am dead wrong. I am under the impression that Amendola was a disappointment and not just of injury.

So the question to you Ian, right now at this second, are the 2014 Patriots a better Team than 2013?
Check off DB
No to:
O Line, D Line, LB as in MLB and that coverage guy Bill wants. We lost two LBs. WR (we replaced Collie with La Fell. I d rather have a healthy Collie) I think Boyce is a wild card and is Dobson going to even be ready, TE (???????), RB.

To sit here and hope that Draft picks can come in day one and help is not realistic (17%). They need years to develop. To say that pre season Cuts can fill holes is a gamble at best. I see Trades as viable but none of us know if there are deals in the making or knowledge of such. It's speculation.
DW Toys

All fair points, but my initial comment was more in shock that you would even think BB is in "whatever" mode. That's kind of a surprising assumption, so you'll have to forgive my reaction to your overall premise.

I get you're not happy with the moves they made and it's ok for a difference of opinion, but in hindsight I'd have to believe even you feel making that assumption was a little over the top?

 

[DW Toys]

All fair points, but my initial comment was more in shock that you would even think BB is in "whatever" mode. That's kind of a surprising assumption, so you'll have to forgive my reaction to your overall premise.

I get you're not happy with the moves they made and it's ok for a difference of opinion, but in hindsight I'd have to believe even you feel making that assumption was a little over the top?

My thread was a question. It asked if people thought that Bill had a plan (Draft? Trades, UDFA etc.) or if the Pats F.O. was being lackadaisical in some aspects. It was a fair question and reasonable thread. The posters agree he had a plan, or did not think we are firing on all cylinders. So that constitutes doom and gloom, so let's banish this thought provoking thread to practice status? Wow Ian.

Have you not read the Threads and retorts on some of your stud posters? They start with doom and gloom and go down. I asked a question, I gave some of my reasons, I left the discussion open for other venues that make up for what in my opinion, were miss steps such as the Draft route or Trades. And I stand by my opinion that they did not get aggressive on some they should have.

I treat all replies with respect except for the two that you and I know do not deserve any. I do love to get them going I have to admit.

I wish you would reconsider this. It is appearing unless you don't tow the line you are an idiot. Not cool.

Being in NE we all know too well about sheep.
DW Toys

 

[james87654]

he may be right, he may be wrong, but BB always has a plan

 

[DarrylS]

Find it amazing that BB and his crew are termed "lackadaisical" or in "whatever mode", find it difficult to believe that this HOF coach and his inner circle are just awaiting to see what happens, i.e. roll the dice.

Take a "long view" of how this team has been built and how we have maximized the talent available, there have been mistakes, but every team has done that. This team building stuff is an imperfect science, as as much as there are those who criticize BB, spend some time talking to an Oakland Raider Fan or a Minnesota fan.. then you come to realize the value of how this franchise is run.

Down the road there is a team in NY who still rests on the laurels of a Superbowl that happened in 1969.... they get to sing "memories", while Rex makes promises.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

How can this thread still exist after the off-season signings thus far? Or was I sleeping on when the post first started? I think Revis and Browner were a considerable splash and are so considered league-wide. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think those signings happened without a fair amount of planning, jumping when value presented itself, etc. I would love to have kept Blount but hey, good luck except when he faces the Pats. But hey, it was the pre-draft offseason. This thread will be replaced by 20 threads on how bad our draft was next week.

 

[jmt57]

How can this thread still exist after the off-season signings thus far? Or was I sleeping on when the post first started?

Well, it is here in the Practice Squad

I think Revis and Browner were a considerable splash and are so considered league-wide. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think those signings happened without a fair amount of planning, jumping when value presented itself, etc. I would love to have kept Blount but hey, good luck except when he faces the Pats. But hey, it was the pre-draft offseason. This thread will be replaced by 20 threads on how bad our draft was next week.

For the heck of it I started to go through some of the suggestions, and for the most part they seem to ignore the reality of the Salary Cap. Per Miguel, as of April 28 the Patriots were $7,782,369 under the cap.

DW opined that the Pats should not have signed LaFell, Chung, or perhaps should not have extended Wilfork. That would add $6,140,000 of cap dollars: $2,000,000 for LaFell, $1,040,000 for Chung (that's assuming he makes the team; it will cost the Pats only $60k if he doesn't), and $3,100,000 for Wilfork (the difference between releasing him, which would have saved $8 million, and the extension, which saved $4.9 million).

That would hypothetically have given the Patriots $13,922,369 of cap space without those three, or $10,822,369 with Wilfork but without LaFell and Chung.

Now for some of the suggestions, in terms of cap dollars


Wide Receiver

- Austin Collie would likely sign for $730k but would qualify for the vet minimum rule for salary cap purposes, which would be $570k. The suggestion was to sign Collie rather than LaFeell, plus one of the following wide receivers:

- Andre Johnson: $11,200,000
- Larry Fitzgerald: would cost Arizona $8,600,000 against their cap, as opposed to paying him $4,250,000 this year. That's unrealistic for the Cardinals to trade him this year.
- Mike Williams: $1,800,000 in 2014, but next year's $5,200,000 salary is fully guaranteed; his 2015 cap figure is $6,800,000.
- DeSean Jackson: $4,250,000 in 2014, but $9,250,000 for each of the following three seasons.


Defensive Line

- Jared Allen in addition to Vince Wilfork. Allen's 2014 cap number is only $3,000,000, but next year it is $12,500,00 and fully guaranteed.
- Kamerion Wimbley: $4,500,000 in 2014 - for a player that may get a lot of snaps, but would not be penciled in as a starter.
- If Wilfork was to be released, another player at a comparable price would have needed to have been signed to replace him.



Linebacker

- Pat Angerer is still available. Just speculating here, but if he was healthy wouldn't somebody have signed him? Angerer still may be a very good value/high upside guy to sign, but the downside is that you usually want your backup linebackers to play special teams - and that's probably not a good idea with his knees.


Tight End

- Owen Daniels: $1,000,000 - probably would have been worth it to sign him for this price, as it is not guaranteed. Maybe Daniels simply liked his chances of making the roster in Baltimore better than in Foxborough, with Ed ****son departing and Dennis Pitta coming off surgery. Like Angerer, Daniels' injury history is a red flag.


Offensive Line

- No suggestions for additions, but whoever it is would presumably have cost more than Wendell ($850,000 cap number) or Connolly ($1,083,334 cap savings if released).


Running Back

- LaGarrette Blount - $1,375,000 in 2014, and $2,475,000 in 2015. Perhaps Blount should have been re-signed; the jury is still out on this decision.
- Dump Ridley or Vereen - no suggestions as to who their replacements should be, but considering that Ridley's cap number is $939,750 and Vereen's is $1,101,275, I'm not sure who in free agency should have been signed to replace them. Most of the starting running backs were getting $3-4 million per year, and with the theoretical signings above (Allen, Wimbley, Jackson, etc.) I don't see how the Patriots could have fit that under the cap.


Safety

- Again Chung's name is brought up, but I'm not convinced that he even makes the roster. Gregory is suggested as an alternative, but his 2014 cap number was $3,683,334 - again, how does the club keep him, sign those other free agents, and remain under the salary cap?




Bottom line to me is that while some of those suggestions would have been nice additions, I just don't see how they would have been feasible. Perhaps in some cases it could have worked for 2014, but then in 2015 there would be an unreasonably large guaranteed salary.

There are still some second tier players I wouldn't mind seeing added - e.g., DE Will Smith, DT Kevin Williams or Ryan Pickett, , OLB O'Brien Schofield, ILB Pat Angerer, S Steve Gregory or Mike Adams, RB Michael Bush, T Will Svitek or Eric Winston, G Travelle Wharton, C David Baas, TE Dustin Keller, etc. - but there just are not enough salary cap dollars to sign a top tier free agent at every position that could use an upgrade or additional depth.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

As I said, we'll be well into "how badly the Pats drafted" next week, and I hope all finished with "why didn't we get Larry Fitzgerald? Didn't you know? Everybody wants to come to Mass, take half the money, and 'prove themselves' even if they're all-pro."

That said, Wilfork's re-do was a good reminder of how cap room can be created, to an extent. What people here don't get is we can't get ALL the good players. That may look like "whatever mode" from outside, but the reality is the diametric opposite. Making choices is tougher than just writing checks, like you could do before the cap (and after, for Carmen Policy, but we won't go there.)

JMT57, thanks for the extensive breakdown. I followed the link from the main football forum, and only just now realized that it has stayed in its former position there as a shortcut.

On Blount: I think given his 2013, keeping for 2014 would have been a good move. Put together a season composed of what the late 2013 campaign showed us, and he's worth the nearly 3 mil in '15. If not, we can absorb the '14 hit. I think it's a matter of age combined to dedication to RBBC - getting 2000 yards out of 3 guys is way cheaper than getting it out of 1 stud. We don't look like we're switching to the "bell cow" philosophy anytime soon.

Now watch the Pats draft a bell cow.

On Angerer: I just want to have a guy with that name on the Pats. I have not yet decided whether it means "Anger, but more so" or "one who Angers." Either is good. But if naming were destiny, Richie Incognito would have a lower profile.

I've become pretty casual about the off-season, as you can see, but can't resist dipping in to see what people are thinking. Keller and Daniels are both intriguing at TE - who'd have thought a year ago it would be a position of need? <sigh>

The greatest loss on the OL can't be replaced. Of course, I mean Scar. It used to be that we wouldn't worry who we "plugged in." Now I am worried however we stock that pond. On the bright side, we've done well on OL through the draft, and I expect to again, in terms of spotting the talent. In terms of getting the most out of it... I'd love to find out that Scar's been over-emphasized as a factor in our success there, but I think I'd be fooling myself if I predicted that outcome.

In terms of the draft, it will be, again, and as always, guided by value (as dictated by the Pats' brain trust, not a pre-draft magazine or Mel Kiper or whoever). That's just longstanding Pats methodology. You can leave a screaming "need" and get by when you have areas of strength shored up. We've got one sewn up that gives some teams fits, the QB position. We've turned CB from bottom quarter of the league to arguably elite. It depends on how it comes together - but it's a big leap if it works out as it looks on paper.

Here's my prediction: We will have areas of weakness on opening day like every other team in the NFL. We will have fewer than most. And to Bruinz' point - cooking the dinner (teambuilding) will continue to be easily as important as buying the groceries.

(That's today's random contribution.)