So, @RapSheet tells us Julian Edelman could be worth $7M/year on the open market

[50-yard-line]

I do not know the lack of offseason surgery, the fact that his numbers align with every other season of his career, and the fact that on 9/24/2013 Amendola said he was close to 100%. Oh, I should disregard all of that and just say well that Andy dude in the forum said he was injured and that is why he did poorly.

If Amendola needed rest and time to heal in theory, he would have been his healthiest in the game against the Broncos, correct.

I do not really feel like debating Amendola. However, since you seem to feel the system is what benefited Edelman as well maybe you can answer the question I asked Jacky Boy - what is the system exactly, how does it work and how does it benefit Edelman?

The system was Brady getting the ball out quickly. The guy he knew best was Edelman - they were on the same page - and so 1/4 of all his throws went that way over the course of the year, 1/3 in the playoffs.

The "system" could well mean well over 150 targets on one receiver, which is WAY TOO MANY.

By the way, as I've pointed out several times now, if you extrapolate Amendola's snaps out to match Edelman's the numbers of targets/catches/yards are almost identical. You're a numbers guy - don't take my word for it.

Edelman benefited greatly in his contract year from being the guy Brady trusted. For several years now, the idea that Brady's favorite receiver is "whoever is open" seems like an urban legend to me. He locks down to get rid of the ball as fast as he can - and given the number of sacks he took this year, who can blame him?

 

[JackBauer]

Let’s see Jack because Vereen, Amendola, and Gronkowski were not on the field for the entire season together so the entire season would not make a lot of sense to look at.

I know Amendola was really hurting luckily they were able to get him into surgery the day after the season ended, oh wait he doesn’t even need surgery…

Anyway, on a side note I noticed that you did not answer my questions. Interesting that you can make the assertion that a player benefits from a system but you cannot even explain what that system is. Actually I lied it is not interesting it is foolish.

If you'll go back and look at the original post, you'll notice I edited it since I bolded more than I had intended. But really, your continued idiocy re: Amendola pretty much makes this conversation pointless to have, at least with you.

 

[Brady6]

Thanks for reminding me why I have you on ignore.
Please carry on with being a d-bag, I'll put you back on ignore.

Because I ask, you question that you do not know the answer to. There is nothing d-bag about that. I am straightforward, do not take it personal, I actually like reading your posts, and consider you one of the more intelligent posters. If you do not know, what the system is than just say so, but if you think a system benefits someone you should really know how to explain it and what benefits them specifically.

 

[Brady6]

The system was Brady getting the ball out quickly. The guy he knew best was Edelman - they were on the same page - and so 1/4 of all his throws went that way over the course of the year, 1/3 in the playoffs.

The "system" could well mean well over 150 targets on one receiver, which is WAY TOO MANY.

So these players are systems WRs to?

• Pierre Garcon, WR-184
• Andre Johnson, WR-181
• A.J. Green, WR-180
• Antonio Brown, WR-165
• Brandon Marshall, WR-163
• Dez Bryant, WR-160
• Vincent Jackson, WR-159
• Josh Gordon, WR-159
• Calvin Johnson, WR-156
• Julian Edelman, WR-151
• Alshon Jeffery, WR-150

By the way, as I've pointed out several times now, if you extrapolate Amendola's snaps out to match Edelman's the numbers of targets/catches/yards are almost identical. You're a numbers guy - don't take my word for it.

In 14 games, Amendola - targeted 89 times resulting in 57 catches that is a 64% catch ratio, Edelman in 18 games - targeted 175 times resulting in 121 catches that is a catch ratio of 69%. That is actually a wide gap to be honest. Not anything world ending but clearly if a player catches 5 more balls for every 100 targets it makes a difference.

Amendola is secondary in this conversation; maybe he would succeed in the system if healthy in which case I would still like to know what the system is, how it works, and what benefits Edelman or Amendola?

Edelman benefited greatly in his contract year from being the guy Brady trusted. For several years now, the idea that Brady's favorite receiver is "whoever is open" seems like an urban legend to me. He locks down to get rid of the ball as fast as he can - and given the number of sacks he took this year, who can blame him?

Edelman started the preseason as the #4 WR on the depth chart, I don’t really get were this Brady trusted him and that’s why belief stems from. If Brady trusted him so much he would have been the #1 slot WR from the get go and Amendola would have had to outperform him to be the starter.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I know; it did not influence Amendola’s value in UFA so why would it influence Edelman’s this season.

I'd argue the opposite: it absolutely did influence Amendola's value in FA. If he had played his healthiest year in his contract season (like Edelman did), he would have a significantly larger contract than he does, because his peak (healthy) performance is significantly better than Edelman's.

 

[Ring 6]

Because I ask, you question that you do not know the answer to. There is nothing d-bag about that. I am straightforward, do not take it personal, I actually like reading your posts, and consider you one of the more intelligent posters. If you do not know, what the system is than just say so, but if you think a system benefits someone you should really know how to explain it and what benefits them specifically.

No because you post like a punk teenage smart azz dbag.

Read your comment to me on the first post I have made to you in months, and tell me you wouldn't bltch slap anyone who talked to you with that kind a dbag attitude in person.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So these players are systems WRs to?

• Pierre Garcon, WR-184
• Andre Johnson, WR-181
• A.J. Green, WR-180
• Antonio Brown, WR-165
• Brandon Marshall, WR-163
• Dez Bryant, WR-160
• Vincent Jackson, WR-159
• Josh Gordon, WR-159
• Calvin Johnson, WR-156
• Julian Edelman, WR-151
• Alshon Jeffery, WR-150

In 14 games, Amendola - targeted 89 times resulting in 57 catches that is a 64% catch ratio, Edelman in 18 games - targeted 175 times resulting in 121 catches that is a catch ratio of 69%. That is actually a wide gap to be honest. Not anything world ending but clearly if a player catches 5 more balls for every 100 targets it makes a difference.

Amendola is secondary in this conversation; maybe he would succeed in the system if healthy in which case I would still like to know what the system is, how it works, and what benefits Edelman or Amendola?



Edelman started the preseason as the #4 WR on the depth chart, I don’t really get were this Brady trusted him and that’s why belief stems from. If Brady trusted him so much he would have been the #1 slot WR from the get go and Amendola would have had to outperform him to be the starter.

You could make a pretty good case that Garcon's numbers are similarly inflated, because he too plays in a passing game where there are basically no other good options. Otherwise, that list basically proves the point that a lot of us are trying to make. That list is comprised of a bunch of elite talents at WR... and then Garcon and Edelman. They were targeted as much as elite guys because they both played in offenses with virtually no other passing options. As a result, they both put up good--but nowhere near elite--stats.

 

[Brady6]

If you'll go back and look at the original post, you'll notice I edited it since I bolded more than I had intended. But really, your continued idiocy re: Amendola pretty much makes this conversation pointless to have, at least with you.

Wes Welker’s targets and percent of Brady’s passes during his tenure with the Patriots:

2007 - 145 targets, 25.08% of Brady’s passes
2009 - 162 targets, 28.67% of Brady’s passes
2010 - 122 targets, 24.79% of Brady’s passes
2011 - 172 targets, 28.15% of Brady’s passes
2012 - 174 targets, 27.31% of Brady’s passes

Edelman was targeted 151 times, which was 24.04% of Brady’s passes. I do not remember anyone saying Welker was our only weapon during his tenure, I remember us having players like Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Deion Branch, Danny Woodhead, Jabar Gaffney and others during that time but yet Welker still was targeted on a higher percent of Brady’s passes in every single season he played here than Edelman was this season.

So I still don’t get it?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wes Welker’s targets and percent of Brady’s passes during his tenure with the Patriots:

2007 - 145 targets, 25.08% of Brady’s passes
2009 - 162 targets, 28.67% of Brady’s passes
2010 - 122 targets, 24.79% of Brady’s passes
2011 - 172 targets, 28.15% of Brady’s passes
2012 - 174 targets, 27.31% of Brady’s passes

Edelman was targeted 151 times, which was 24.04% of Brady’s passes. I do not remember anyone saying Welker was our only weapon during his tenure, I remember us having players like Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth, Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez, Deion Branch, Danny Woodhead, Jabar Gaffney and others during that time but yet Welker still was targeted on a higher percent of Brady’s passes in every single season he played here than Edelman was this season.

So I still don’t get it?

I remember a ton of people pointing out that the Pats were overly reliant on Welker from 2009-2012. You can make a pretty strong case that it was the #1 culprit for why the offense fizzled out in the playoffs the way that it consistently did. Welker also consistently put up stronger numbers than what Edelman had this year.

 

[Ring 6]

I remember a ton of people pointing out that the Pats were overly reliant on Welker from 2009-2012. You can make a pretty strong case that it was the #1 culprit for why the offense fizzled out in the playoffs the way that it consistently did. Welker also consistently put up stronger numbers than what Edelman had this year.

But I think the point here is that Welker put up those numbers with a lot of talented players around him while Edelman put up a lot of his with a ragtag crew surrounding him.

I'm not knocking Edelman, but we have to accept that in many cases when he was being thrown to the offense wasn't exactly rolling and they were not the kind of passes Brady is throwing if he has a better group out there getting open.

 

[Brady6]

No because you post like a punk teenage smart azz dbag.

Read your comment to me on the first post I have made to you in months, and tell me you wouldn't bltch slap anyone who talked to you with that kind a dbag attitude in person.

It depends on the tone, unfortunately emails, posts, text, etc. are open to interpretation. I was being smug but it was in a sarcastic messing with you “ball busting” type way it was not intended to be malleolus. I guess I should consider that it is open to interpretation before posting things like that and leaving it up to others to determine. My apologies.

 

[Brady6]

I'd argue the opposite: it absolutely did influence Amendola's value in FA. If he had played his healthiest year in his contract season (like Edelman did), he would have a significantly larger contract than he does, because his peak (healthy) performance is significantly better than Edelman's.

What are you basing that on? Amendola signed here having played 42 games in which he was targeted 293 times for 196 catches, 66% catch ration, 1726 yards, 8.80 average, and 7 touchdowns; in those 42 career games, he had 3 games with 10+ catches, and 2 games with 100+ yards.

Can you tell me where it is significantly better?

 

[50-yard-line]

So these players are systems WRs to?

• Pierre Garcon, WR-184
• Andre Johnson, WR-181
• A.J. Green, WR-180
• Antonio Brown, WR-165
• Brandon Marshall, WR-163
• Dez Bryant, WR-160
• Vincent Jackson, WR-159
• Josh Gordon, WR-159
• Calvin Johnson, WR-156
• Julian Edelman, WR-151
• Alshon Jeffery, WR-150

I really love Edelman, but the only guy on that list remotely comparable to him in talent is Garcon, as someone else pointed out.

In 14 games, Amendola - targeted 89 times resulting in 57 catches that is a 64% catch ratio, Edelman in 18 games - targeted 175 times resulting in 121 catches that is a catch ratio of 69%. That is actually a wide gap to be honest. Not anything world ending but clearly if a player catches 5 more balls for every 100 targets it makes a difference.

The numbers I saw were a bit more in Amendola's favor (it's not an exact science, obviously - was that pass from Brady to the empty goal line aimed at Amendola or Dobson, for example?).

Yeah, if your numbers are correct and they hold out when Amendola's not injured, it makes a SLIGHT difference. Enough to knock over 5 million into dead money? No way.

Amendola is secondary in this conversation; maybe he would succeed in the system if healthy in which case I would still like to know what the system is, how it works, and what benefits Edelman or Amendola?

Edelman started the preseason as the #4 WR on the depth chart, I don’t really get were this Brady trusted him and that’s why belief stems from. If Brady trusted him so much he would have been the #1 slot WR from the get go and Amendola would have had to outperform him to be the starter.

The only guys on the team who had seen passes from Brady before were Vereen and Gronk. Both missed 10 games. Point is, Brady KNEW that JE would see what he was seeing, and so he went to him repeatedly. That's not a knock on JE, and I want him back, but as I stated earlier, there's only a small handful of receivers I'd pay 7 million for, given the current needs of the Patriots.

I expect BB to feel that way, too. If Edelman walks, I want Sanders, but if he's more than 4 a year, move along to the next in line.

 

[Brady6]

Welker also consistently put up stronger numbers than what Edelman had this year.

Edelman’s final 8 games - 97 targets, 69 catches, 729 yards, 10.56 average, and 5 touchdown; his final 8 games were better than any season Amendola has ever had in his career. Project those stats out over a 16 games season and you have 138 catches, 1458 yards, and 10 touchdowns.

Edelman was targeted 175 times combined and had 121 catches this regular and postseason combined. Last year Welker was targeted 174 times and 118 catches in the regular season.

I cannot really fault Edelman for not having the opportunity to start any other year because he had the best slot WR of all time playing in front of him.

 

[Brady6]

I really love Edelman, but the only guy on that list remotely comparable to him in talent is Garcon, as someone else pointed out.

Antonio Brown

The numbers I saw were a bit more in Amendola's favor (it's not an exact science, obviously - was that pass from Brady to the empty goal line aimed at Amendola or Dobson, for example?).

Yeah, if your numbers are correct and they hold out when Amendola's not injured, it makes a SLIGHT difference. Enough to knock over 5 million into dead money? No way.

Amendola was the healthiest he was all season against the Broncos and couldn’t get open if he was in a paper bag.

The only guys on the team who had seen passes from Brady before were Vereen and Gronk. Both missed 10 games. Point is, Brady KNEW that JE would see what he was seeing, and so he went to him repeatedly. That's not a knock on JE, and I want him back, but as I stated earlier, there's only a small handful of receivers I'd pay 7 million for, given the current needs of the Patriots.

I expect BB to feel that way, too. If Edelman walks, I want Sanders, but if he's more than 4 a year, move along to the next in line.

To be clear I do not want to pay Edelman $7 million my point is only that if we were willing to pay Amendola $5.7 million on average than Edelman is worth $1.3 million more in theory.

 

[Brady6]

But I think the point here is that Welker put up those numbers with a lot of talented players around him while Edelman put up a lot of his with a ragtag crew surrounding him.

I'm not knocking Edelman, but we have to accept that in many cases when he was being thrown to the offense wasn't exactly rolling and they were not the kind of passes Brady is throwing if he has a better group out there getting open.

All due respect Andy you’re basically saying that playing with better players made Welker’s job more difficult. That doesn’t make much sense to me, if anything less options means defenses key in on you more.

 

[50-yard-line]

Antonio Brown



Amendola was the healthiest he was all season against the Broncos and couldn’t get open if he was in a paper bag.

Now see, if you're not looking for people to get mad at you, why would you post that? It's also crap. Amendola was wide open on the bomb to Slater.

To be clear I do not want to pay Edelman $7 million my point is only that if we were willing to pay Amendola $5.7 million on average than Edelman is worth $1.3 million more in theory.

So your point is nothing more than to AGAIN bash the Amendola deal?

The horse is dead, son...you're fast degenerating into necrophilia territory.

 

[Brady6]

Now see, if you're not looking for people to get mad at you, why would you post that? It's also crap. Amendola was wide open on the bomb to Slater.







So your point is nothing more than to AGAIN bash the Amendola deal?



The horse is dead, son...you're fast degenerating into necrophilia territory.

It's not bashing anything, I do not think that the Patriots made that offer to Amendola out of the goodness of their hearts. I think that the interest for Amendola on the UFA market prompted the deal. If Amendola's performance prompted one of the most conservative teams in the NFL for UFA spending to offer him $5,700,000 I would expect that Edelman's performance would amount to at least $1,300,000 more than that. It's simple economics if house A sells for $X a year later house B which is a nicer house in the same area with the same demographic should sell for $X more than house A did previously. Unless you're anticipating a crash in the slot receiver market which I have know reason to anticipate personally.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Edelman’s final 8 games - 97 targets, 69 catches, 729 yards, 10.56 average, and 5 touchdown; his final 8 games were better than any season Amendola has ever had in his career. Project those stats out over a 16 games season and you have 138 catches, 1458 yards, and 10 touchdowns.

Edelman was targeted 175 times combined and had 121 catches this regular and postseason combined. Last year Welker was targeted 174 times and 118 catches in the regular season.

I cannot really fault Edelman for not having the opportunity to start any other year because he had the best slot WR of all time playing in front of him.

Nobody in their right mind would think that it's sensible to argue what you're arguing in the first paragraph. You could extrapolate comparable stat lines with far worse QBs from the best stretches of Amendola's career (look at his start to 2012), which would prove nothing just like your argument proves nothing. At this point you're just arguing nonsense, and there's really no point in continuing to indulge you.

 

[50-yard-line]

It's not bashing anything, I do not think that the Patriots made that offer to Amendola out of the goodness of their hearts. I think that the interest for Amendola on the UFA market prompted the deal. If Amendola's performance prompted one of the most conservative teams in the NFL for UFA spending to offer him $5,700,000 I would expect that Edelman's performance would amount to at least $1,300,000 more than that. It's simple economics if house A sells for $X a year later house B which is a nicer house in the same area with the same demographic should sell for $X more than house A did previously. Unless you're anticipating a crash in the slot receiver market which I have know reason to anticipate personally.

So Edelman is, therefore, worth a million more than Welker?