The Safeties Have Never Been Good Enough

[Deus Irae]

Why is repalcing Gregory so important, the secondary was an elite unit this yr. The D-Line is the unit that needs fixing.
As of right now I would rank the Pats needs as
1. #1 CB
2. Pass rushing DT
3. #3 DE -
4. OG
5. TE
6. WR

The secondary was not an elite unit.

 

[ashley]

Why is repalcing Gregory so important, the secondary was an elite unit this yr. The D-Line is the unit that needs fixing.
As of right now I would rank the Pats needs as
1. #1 CB
2. Pass rushing DT
3. #3 DE -
4. OG
5. TE
6. WR

I agree with the need of better defensive line play. I wouldn't call the secondary elite though. I saw too many times this year where we had opponents at 3rd and long and gave up the first down. I saw it too much.

I also saw Gregory on tight ends and continuously get beat for first downs. I just think we need a bigger, more physical safety. I understand the pass rush has something to do with it, but if we can get a Calvin Pryor in the draft, I think our secondary will be so much better. I don't want to see a team like Denver put 500 yards up against us anymore.

 

[All22PatsFan]

The secondary was not an elite unit.

McCourty is a top 2 FS, Talib is a a good #1 CB, Dennard is an above average #2 CB, Arrington is underrated CB, evreyone watchs film likes him (Kyed,Christensen) . Ryan played well in his oppurtunites. Gregory played well espically early on in the season and in the playoffs, Harmon played well when DMac was out.

 

[Sciz]

McCourty is a top 2 FS, Talib is a a good #1 CB, Dennard is an above average #2 CB, Arrington is underrated CB, evreyone watchs film likes him (Kyed,Christensen) . Ryan played well in his oppurtunites. Gregory played well espically early on in the season and in the playoffs, Harmon played well when DMac was out.

If you true you argue with Deus about the secondary, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[All22PatsFan]

If you true you argue with Deus about the secondary, you're gonna have a bad time.

No offense to you or Deus, but you have to watch all22 to even know whats going on an the secondary. How do you even know what coverages the pats are playing? What secondaries other then the hawks are better then the Patriots?

 

[mayoclinic]

Why is repalcing Gregory so important, the secondary was an elite unit this yr. The D-Line is the unit that needs fixing.
As of right now I would rank the Pats needs as
1. #1 CB
2. Pass rushing DT
3. #3 DE -
4. OG
5. TE
6. WR

McCourty is a top 2 FS, Talib is a a good #1 CB, Dennard is an above average #2 CB, Arrington is underrated CB, evreyone watchs film likes him (Kyed,Christensen) . Ryan played well in his oppurtunites. Gregory played well espically early on in the season and in the playoffs, Harmon played well when DMac was out.

I agree with the need of better defensive line play. I wouldn't call the secondary elite though. I saw too many times this year where we had opponents at 3rd and long and gave up the first down. I saw it too much.

I also saw Gregory on tight ends and continuously get beat for first downs. I just think we need a bigger, more physical safety. I understand the pass rush has something to do with it, but if we can get a Calvin Pryor in the draft, I think our secondary will be so much better. I don't want to see a team like Denver put 500 yards up against us anymore.

The secondary indeed at times played like at elite level, and was probably one of the stronger units in the AFC, something that I predicted would happen a year and half ago when the secondary was in shambles and I suggested trading for Aqib Talib and moving Devin McCourty to FS:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ass-defense-about-go-terrible-very-good.html

Aqib Talib played at a near-MVP level the first 6 games of the season before getting dinged, and Devin McCourty was the best safety we've had since Rodney retired. He's not at the Earl Thomas level yet, and calling him a "top 2 FS" may be a stretch, but he's still learning the position. Alfonzo Dennard is an above average #2. Kyle Arrington was up and down - he's a mess outside, but at times very good in the slot. Injuries may have played a factor. Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon had promising rookie seasons, and provide solid depth. I'm optimistic about the secondary, and that improvement is one of the reasons that I really want to maintain continuity and see Aqib Talib re-signed.

However, the secondary was too inconsistent and too porous on 3rd down to really call it an "elite unit" for 2013. It had flashes, but also major gaps. And the loss of Talib had a major impact on the overall level of secondary play.

IMO, there are 2 areas in the secondary that need to be addressed, aside from the obvious re-signing of Talib or finding a replacement (again, something that I really don't want to do):

1. Get depth at outside CB, particularly big, physical CBs who can play press man. I NEVER, EVER want to see Kyle Arrington outside, under any circumstances, much less STers like Marquice Cole. Unacceptable, especially when you can get big, physical CBs who can play press-man on day 3 of the draft.

2. Upgrade the SS position opposite McCourty. As Ashley1992 points out, while Gregory wasn't awful, he was the "weak link" in the starting secondary (aside from the times when Arrington was played at outside CB), and far too often failed to police the middle of the field. He's a good backup/rotational player, but over-priced at a $3.5M cap hit; and an upgrade is certainly desirable. We can debate the relative priority of that desire, but arguably a physical SS with coverage ability who can make opposing receivers pay and make them think twice about going over the middle would help a lot.

I agree that the DL is a high priority, and would make the secondary better, and I've repeatedly called for that to be an off-season priority. I certainly think we need a rotational DE, a pass-rushing DT (though Kelly, Jones and hopefully Armstead provide a fair amount of ability and depth at that role), and also quite possibly (probably, IMO) a replacement for Wilfork if he is unable to recover from his injury to an adequate level in a timely fashion. There is obviously synergy - better DL play makes the secondary job easier, and better secondary play buys more time for the DL to get to the QB. I don't see why both areas should't be potential targets for improvement, depending on how things fall.

 

[All22PatsFan]

The secondary indeed at times played like at elite level, and was probably one of the stronger units in the AFC, something that I predicted would happen a year and half ago when the secondary was in shambles and I suggested trading for Aqib Talib and moving Devin McCourty to FS:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ass-defense-about-go-terrible-very-good.html

Aqib Talib played at a near-MVP level the first 6 games of the season before getting dinged, and Devin McCourty was the best safety we've had since Rodney retired. He's not at the Earl Thomas level yet, and calling him a "top 2 FS" may be a stretch, but he's still learning the position. Alfonzo Dennard is an above average #2. Kyle Arrington was up and down - he's a mess outside, but at times very good in the slot. Injuries may have played a factor. Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon had promising rookie seasons, and provide solid depth. I'm optimistic about the secondary, and that improvement is one of the reasons that I really want to maintain continuity and see Aqib Talib re-signed.

However, the secondary was too inconsistent and too porous on 3rd down to really call it an "elite unit" for 2013. It had flashes, but also major gaps. And the loss of Talib had a major impact on the overall level of secondary play.

IMO, there are 2 areas in the secondary that need to be addressed, aside from the obvious re-signing of Talib or finding a replacement (again, something that I really don't want to do):

1. Get depth at outside CB, particularly big, physical CBs who can play press man. I NEVER, EVER want to see Kyle Arrington outside, under any circumstances, much less STers like Marquice Cole. Unacceptable, especially when you can get big, physical CBs who can play press-man on day 3 of the draft.

2. Upgrade the SS position opposite McCourty. As Ashley1992 points out, while Gregory wasn't awful, he was the "weak link" in the starting secondary (aside from the times when Arrington was played at outside CB), and far too often failed to police the middle of the field. He's a good backup/rotational player, but over-priced at a $3.5M cap hit; and an upgrade is certainly desirable. We can debate the relative priority of that desire, but arguably a physical SS with coverage ability who can make opposing receivers pay and make them think twice about going over the middle would help a lot.

I agree that the DL is a high priority, and would make the secondary better, and I've repeatedly called for that to be an off-season priority. I certainly think we need a rotational DE, a pass-rushing DT (though Kelly, Jones and hopefully Armstead provide a fair amount of ability and depth at that role), and also quite possibly (probably, IMO) a replacement for Wilfork if he is unable to recover from his injury to an adequate level in a timely fashion. There is obviously synergy - better DL play makes the secondary job easier, and better secondary play buys more time for the DL to get to the QB. I don't see why both areas should't be potential targets for improvement, depending on how things fall.

Arringron played fine on the outside from all the film I watched. Rewatch the AFCCG from 2012, he played the outside really well. I see a camp battle between Gregory and Harmon and if Gregory loses with his cap# he will likely be cut. Watch McCourty on film his closing speed is the best in the NFL, He was only targeted 18 times on the season that is insane.

At DT Siliga will be a starter weather Vince is gone or Vince stays. His run stopping was amazing , he had the third highest PFF grade when he started to play and his impact was a huge reason why the run defense improved. This leaves a Pass rushing DT and a third DE who can rush the passer. Armstead will get some snaps but we desprarly need to draft or sign someone. A rotating body at DE would greatly benefit Jones/Ninko.

At LB the Pats have three studs, Hightower played amazing when he started to play middle LB and not on the strongside, on the strongside Collins showed great blitzing and coverage skills. And Mayo is Mayo. A 4th LB is needed.

I expect the Patriots to draft offensively say a G, WR, TE
Zack Martin- G
Allen Robinson- Penn state watched Patriots tape played in patriots offense 6-3 his route running and his abiltes with the ball is amazing

Signing wise-
DE- Johnson, Bennet, Griffen, Tuck
DT- Joseph, Hatcher, Houston
CB- Talib, Verner, Grimes

 

[Deus Irae]

If you true you argue with Deus about the secondary, you're gonna have a bad time.

Nah..... He's obviously just trolling.

 

[mgteich]

So, we only have six serious needs on the defense (plus linebacker). I thought that this was too ambitious a list.

However, perhaps 5 and 6 are the same player. I don't think that we are keeping Wilfork, keeping Kelly and signing a pass-rushing DT.

We would likely be fine with a pass-rushing replacement for Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, Jones, and Armstead. That's five DT's. With Wilfork gone, Gregory gone, Sopoaga gone, A Wilson gone and Kelly extended, and the use of a couple draft choices, this is likely doable.
Even with Gregory staying, this is doable if the new safety is a draftee to replace T Wilson or Ebner.

1. #1 CB, hopefully Talib
2. Backup CB to replace Cole
3. rotational DE to replace Bequette
4. starting SS to replace Gregory
5. pass-rushing DT, to replace Vallano, while keeping Kelly
6. possible replacement for Wilfork

7. Since both Fletcher and Spikes are free agents, I presume that we also need a linebacker or two.

The secondary indeed at times played like at elite level, and was probably one of the stronger units in the AFC, something that I predicted would happen a year and half ago when the secondary was in shambles and I suggested trading for Aqib Talib and moving Devin McCourty to FS:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ass-defense-about-go-terrible-very-good.html

Aqib Talib played at a near-MVP level the first 6 games of the season before getting dinged, and Devin McCourty was the best safety we've had since Rodney retired. He's not at the Earl Thomas level yet, and calling him a "top 2 FS" may be a stretch, but he's still learning the position. Alfonzo Dennard is an above average #2. Kyle Arrington was up and down - he's a mess outside, but at times very good in the slot. Injuries may have played a factor. Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon had promising rookie seasons, and provide solid depth. I'm optimistic about the secondary, and that improvement is one of the reasons that I really want to maintain continuity and see Aqib Talib re-signed.

However, the secondary was too inconsistent and too porous on 3rd down to really call it an "elite unit" for 2013. It had flashes, but also major gaps. And the loss of Talib had a major impact on the overall level of secondary play.

IMO, there are 2 areas in the secondary that need to be addressed, aside from the obvious re-signing of Talib or finding a replacement (again, something that I really don't want to do):

1. Get depth at outside CB, particularly big, physical CBs who can play press man. I NEVER, EVER want to see Kyle Arrington outside, under any circumstances, much less STers like Marquice Cole. Unacceptable, especially when you can get big, physical CBs who can play press-man on day 3 of the draft.

2. Upgrade the SS position opposite McCourty. As Ashley1992 points out, while Gregory wasn't awful, he was the "weak link" in the starting secondary (aside from the times when Arrington was played at outside CB), and far too often failed to police the middle of the field. He's a good backup/rotational player, but over-priced at a $3.5M cap hit; and an upgrade is certainly desirable. We can debate the relative priority of that desire, but arguably a physical SS with coverage ability who can make opposing receivers pay and make them think twice about going over the middle would help a lot.

I agree that the DL is a high priority, and would make the secondary better, and I've repeatedly called for that to be an off-season priority. I certainly think we need a rotational DE, a pass-rushing DT (though Kelly, Jones and hopefully Armstead provide a fair amount of ability and depth at that role), and also quite possibly (probably, IMO) a replacement for Wilfork if he is unable to recover from his injury to an adequate level in a timely fashion. There is obviously synergy - better DL play makes the secondary job easier, and better secondary play buys more time for the DL to get to the QB. I don't see why both areas should't be potential targets for improvement, depending on how things fall.

 

[supafly]

Why is repalcing Gregory so important, the secondary was an elite unit this yr.

I think the secondary has grown for sure over the past couple of years, but it was hardly "elite" in 2013. It was nice however, to go from the past few years ranked in the lower end of the NFL at 29, 30, 31 up to #18.

The safety play does need improved upon, and this seems to be a trend just about every single year--despite anyone's view of where they rank McCourty.

Gregory is a good rotational safety #3, but it's silly to think that he's the answer as a starting safety opposite McCourty, especially for the cap hit/money. Obviously Belichick sees it as an issue, or he wouldn't have chosen players in rounds 2 and 3 the past two years.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the secondary has grown for sure over the past couple of years, but it was hardly "elite" in 2013. It was nice however, to go from the past few years ranked in the lower end of the NFL at 29, 30, 31 up to #18.

The safety play does need improved upon, and this seems to be a trend just about every single year--despite anyone's view of where they rank McCourty.

Gregory is a good rotational safety #3, but it's silly to think that he's the answer as a starting safety opposite McCourty, especially for the cap hit/money. Obviously Belichick sees it as an issue, or he wouldn't have chosen players in rounds 2 and 3 the past two years.

Belichick would never have drafted Tavon or Duron, and he wouldn't have signed Adrian, if he'd just looked at Gregory on the all-22.

 

[captain stone]

...Arringron played fine on the outside from all the film I watched. Rewatch the AFCCG from 2012, he played the outside really well...

What does a game from 2012 have to do with how lousy the $4M Man played
at outside CB in 2013?

 

[captain stone]

Belichick would never have drafted Tavon or Duron, and he wouldn't have signed Adrian, if he'd just looked at Gregory on the all-22.

I wish that Bill had looked at Tavon on the All-22 while he was still at Illinois.

 

[mayoclinic]

Arringron played fine on the outside from all the film I watched. Rewatch the AFCCG from 2012, he played the outside really well. I see a camp battle between Gregory and Harmon and if Gregory loses with his cap# he will likely be cut. Watch McCourty on film his closing speed is the best in the NFL, He was only targeted 18 times on the season that is insane.

The same AFCCG in which our defense fell apart after Aqib Talib got hurt and Joe Flacco repeatedly threw over the top against our outside CBs, including Arrington? (As opposed to the AFCCG where our defense fell apart after Aqib Talib got hurt and Peyton Manning picked our soft zone apart.)

At DT Siliga will be a starter weather Vince is gone or Vince stays. His run stopping was amazing , he had the third highest PFF grade when he started to play and his impact was a huge reason why the run defense improved. This leaves a Pass rushing DT and a third DE who can rush the passer. Armstead will get some snaps but we desprarly need to draft or sign someone. A rotating body at DE would greatly benefit Jones/Ninko.

I've been calling for a rotating body at DE for ages. I like what I've seen from Siliga, and he certainly improved the run defense (not exactly a high bar to exceed) but I'm not ready to anoint him a starter for next year, or call him a stud run-stopping DT yet. And I don't put much stock in PFF grades. He could get there, but I'd want more, which is part of why I like Joseph so much. Joseph and Siliga would be terrific depth, and an awesome combo when we wanted to go big in the middle.

At LB the Pats have three studs, Hightower played amazing when he started to play middle LB and not on the strongside, on the strongside Collins showed great blitzing and coverage skills. And Mayo is Mayo. A 4th LB is needed.

Fletcher will hopefully be back, but I'd like to see more at LB - more of the athleticism and coverage ability that Jamie Collins brings. I think "amazing" is a bit of hyperbole as far as describing Hightower's play, but he certainly played better in the middle than he did miscast at WLB - again, not a high bar to exceed. Mayo back will help, and I've always felt Collins is the real deal. But I'd love to pick up a Marcus Smith, Christian Jones or Kyle Van Noy. Then I think we'd actually have an "elite" LB group that can create disruption and mismatches against anyone.

Signing wise-
DE- Johnson, Bennet, Griffen, Tuck
DT- Joseph, Hatcher, Houston
CB- Talib, Verner, Grimes

I've already said that I want Talib back, and I'd love to get Linval Joseph. Lamarr Houston would be fabulous, but I think it's a pipe dream, as is Michael Johnson or Michael Bennett (who I wanted the Pats to sign last year). No thanks on Justin Tuck.

Everson Griffen is an interesting suggestion. The Pats were reportedly interested in him during the 2010 draft. He'd bring a lot of the things that Michael Bennett brought to Seattle this year, and would be a great rotational DE. I'd be all for that. Greg Bedard had some nice comments on his play against Baltimore:

Everson Griffen, Gerald McCoy, J.J. Watt stand out among Week 14 pass rushers | The MMQB with Peter King

I'm sure Daly could have some input on that one. However, it should be noted that he's Minnesota's youngest DE and they already tried to sign him to an extension this season, which he rejected as not being "in the ballpark", so I doubt he'll sign for reasonable money. Whether he can get it is another matter.

Vikings offered Everson Griffen extension, but it 'wasn't in ballpark' | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings

But if we cut Wilfork and somehow managed to sign both Linval Joseph and Everson Griffen, I think our DL would be in great shape, and I'd applaud it:

DT: Joseph, Kelly, Siliga, Armstead, Chr. Jones
DE: Cha. Jones, Ninkovich, Griffen, Buchanan

Both Chandler Jones and Everson Griffen could move inside on passing downs, and Amrstead could also play outside at DE. If a penetrating DT fell in the draft and was a good value, Kelly could be upgraded.

I'd have no problem with that rotation, but I'm skeptical that the Pats could sign both Joseph and Griffen.

 

[Miguel]

Miguel,

I'm not being critical, and I'm incredibly appreciative of the work you do, and I apologize if I offended you. Perhaps I haven't read all the fine print as closely as I should have, and I'm not a capologist. But I think there has been some confusion about the difference in numbers, which until today I didn't understand - again, I'm not a capologist. Net vs. gross cap savings resolves it nicely. If we cut Dan Connolly (just to take an example) we have a $2.505M immediate net cap savings, but we have $3M available to spend on a free agent.

MC

No worries.

I have updated my cap page at Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2014 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page. Here's hoping that it is now clearer that I use net cap savings.

 

[All22PatsFan]

Belichick would never have drafted Tavon or Duron, and he wouldn't have signed Adrian, if he'd just looked at Gregory on the all-22.

Greg Cosell, god of all-22 was a big fan of Harmon.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

If BB feels Harmon has the goods needed to take the next step then safety won't be a priority need this offseason.

If this is not the case then, yes, safety will become a need and I would submit not a draft need given the futility that this team will have exhibited drafting safeties.

 

[Ring 6]

Duron Harmon, safety, third round, No. 91: 15 games, three starts, 431 snaps, 31 tackles, four passes defensed, two interceptions. Duron Harmon was a surprise third-round pick, but the Rutgers safety proved doubters wrong with an impressive rookie season. He allowed eight catches on 12 targets for 99 yards. He didn’t allow a touchdown. Harmon filled in at both free and strong safety and carved out a role as the Patriots’ dime defender. Gregory has a chance to pass Steve Gregory on the depth chart at strong safety next year. Harmon was praised for his communication skills in the Patriots’ defensive backfield by his teammates.

By Kyed. Kind of blows up the Harmon didn't play well arguments.

Read more at: Patriots Defensive Rookie Review: 2013 Draft Trade Netted Two Playmakers | New England Patriots | NESN.com

 

[JackBauer]

By Kyed. Kind of blows up the Harmon didn't play well arguments.

Read more at: Patriots Defensive Rookie Review: 2013 Draft Trade Netted Two Playmakers | New England Patriots | NESN.com

Gregory has a chance to pass Steve Gregory? That would be a sight to see.

 

[Deus Irae]

Greg Cosell, god of all-22 was a big fan of Harmon.

Good for Greg. Give him a cookie.