How do you feel about the Patriots salary cap management in recent years?

[Brady6]

Haha, give me a break.

I wrote this before but you’re the poster boy for this Jacky Boy...

Suggestion for all, before you take a shot at others opinions at least has the fortitude to outline your own opinion.

For the record, we signed Hernandez, which was our decision. The fact is he very well could have been pulling drive by shootings the week before he signed his contract and we clearly were not doing our DD screening our personnel. We own some of the Hernandez mistake; do not get me wrong the kids a punk as piece of **** but we acted ignorantly based on how he was behaving.

 

[JackBauer]

I wrote this before but you’re the poster boy for this Jacky Boy...

For the record, we signed Hernandez, which was our decision. The fact is he very well could have been pulling drive by shootings the week before he signed his contract and we clearly were not doing our DD screening our personnel. We own some of the Hernandez mistake; do not get me wrong the kids a punk as piece of **** but we acted ignorantly based on how he was behaving.

That's nice - carry on.

 

[Patsrock]

I never said differently. You are choosing to focus on Hernandez only but I see these hits on over the cap:

Brandon Lloyd-$3,500,000
Jonathan Fanene-$2,566,667
Chad Johnson-$1,583,334
Leon Washington-$1,200,000
Ras-I Dowling-$940,759
Daniel Fells-$333,333
Jabar Gaffney-$125,000
Spencer Larsen-$125,000
Lavelle Hawkins-$100,000
Total-$10,474,093

Those were all just bad decisions.

That aside I am not a cap expert, which is why I asked the question what you think of our management recently. I feel it has not been as tight as it has been in the past, if you disagree that is fine. I do not really want to get into a back and forth with excuses and “it is not their fault” conversation, because I understand all the circumstances and I still think it has been poor compared to the cap management during the 2000s. Tom Brady has bailed us out a lot, and people confuse that for excellent cap management but if he didn’t take the team first deals we would not be viewed in the same light.

Going by % of cap via patscap.com unless noted

2001 22.94% $15.5m
2002 15.59% $11.1m
2003 13.35% $10m
2004 11.14% $9.0m
2005 8.27% $6.8m
2006 5.09% $5.1m
2007 5.32% $6.0m
2008 9.97% $12.1m
2009 9.13% $11.9m
2010 no cap
2011 could not find
2012 17.1% 22.8M(nyjetscap)
2013 11.83% 15.3m

So in other words they are falling in line with the Super Bowl winning years with dead money

 

[Miguel]

We are not the Raiders but I do not think we have been handling our cap as well in recent years.

Dead Money

2013
1. Raiders-$56,077,873
2. Jaguars-$42,549,248
3. Jets-$23,561,661
4. Chiefs-$19,210,278
5. Panthers-$18,751,824
6. Bills-$18,634,424
7. Cardinals-$18,548,488
8. Ravens-$17,539,275
9. Cowboys-$17,297,847
10. Patriots-$16,696,845
11. Browns-$15,225,153
12. Buccaneers-$15,115,208
13. Lions-$14,903,171
14. Falcons-$14,224,063
15. Eagles-$13,360,214
16. Titans-$13,087,216
17. Rams-$12,629,247
18. Chargers-$12,409,645
19. Dolphins-$12,320,126
20. Broncos-$11,873,857
21. Colts-$11,637,465
22. Steelers-$11,020,242
23. Giants-$9,201,353
24. Seahawks-$8,380,713
25. Texans-$6,880,285
26. Redskins-$6,805,286
27. Bears-$6,157,993
28. Bengals-$6,107,833
29. 49ers-$5,867,232
30. Saints-$5,732,888
31. Vikings-$5,196,210
32. Packers-$3,137,289
2014
1. Panthers-$12,240,241
2. Bills-$12,070,113
3. Cowboys-$11,809,439
4. Cardinals-$10,087,468
5. Raiders-$9,311,192
6. Patriots-$8,533,721
7. Chargers-$7,809,983
8. Browns-$7,194,157
9. Jaguars-$5,600,511
10. Dolphins-$4,942,896
11. Steelers-$4,552,933
12. Ravens-$4,422,216
13. Texans-$3,247,174
14. Falcons-$3,172,507
15. Titans-$2,449,725
16. 49ers-$1,934,689
17. Saints-$1,757,600
18. Lions-$1,537,793
19. Chiefs-$1,505,823
20. Bears-$1,476,671
21. Eagles-$1,348,343
22. Packers-$1,277,484
23. Broncos-$1,137,330
24. Bengals-$984,283
25. Seahawks-$907,367
26. Colts-$800,734
27. Giants-$403,141
28. Vikings-$333,163
29. Redskins-$155,233
30. Buccaneers-$139,119
31. Rams-$133,805
32. Jets-$48,958

A fairer way would be to do this comparison for more than 2 years.

In 2013 the Patriots led the league with the most players on the reserve lists (IR and NFI) which is one reason why OTC has the Pats with so much dead money - personnel turnover. Example, Austin Collie shows up twice on the list because he was released at least twice by the Patriots during the season.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Yeah because having 18 team’s in front of you is the gold standard for a great job...

I opened the thread to ask a question and hear other people’s opinions, not to have my list critiqued.

Suggestion for all, before you take a shot at others opinions at least has the fortitude to outline your own opinion. Not doing so is the weakest form of posting.

No one can be above average at everything. No NFL GM could have predicted what happened to Hernandez. Absent that, the Pats would have been middle of the pack. Is there room for improvement? Sure. But I'm not going to make major complaints about it unless they're in the bottom 3rd of teams.

To your specific complaints in the message - I thought it was clear that my "critiquing your list" illustrated why I wasn't concerned about the team's cap management. I'm not concerned about middle-of-the-pack in dead money when excluding an extraordinary event. If you want to punish the Pats for Hernandez, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to.

 

[Froob]

Somehow, someway, this must be Josh McDaniel's fault.

 

[Deus Irae]

Seriously? Cap management?

Of all the things to ***** about with this team, cap management may be above only winning percentage, if we were to list problems with this team in order from biggest to least.

***** about personnel moves. There's plenty of meat on that bone.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

No one can be above average at everything. No NFL GM could have predicted what happened to Hernandez. Absent that, the Pats would have been middle of the pack. Is there room for improvement? Sure. But I'm not going to make major complaints about it unless they're in the bottom 3rd of teams.

To your specific complaints in the message - I thought it was clear that my "critiquing your list" illustrated why I wasn't concerned about the team's cap management. I'm not concerned about middle-of-the-pack in dead money when excluding an extraordinary event. If you want to punish the Pats for Hernandez, that's fine, but I don't think it's fair to.

One other point. Dead money itself is often just reflection of management styles.

When Belichick gives up on a player, he just cuts him, period. Doesn't matter where he was drafted, doesn't matter if he was a free agent signing. If he thinks the player won't contribute and someone else cheaper will, he cuts the guy.

A lot of teams don't follow that philosophy. They hold onto draft picks longer simply because they made such a big investment in him. They hold onto free agent signings because it would make management look bad to cut them so quickly. Ras-I was almost a 1st round pick, and he was released after 2 years. Who else does that? Most teams would have held on to him for another year. There wouldn't be a dead-cap charge from him, but there wouldn't be any production out of him either.

What's worse? A lot of dead money but a productive roster --or minimal dead money, but a lot of "dead" roster spots held by players who hardly play or play poorly? That's why dead money is only part of the equation. If the Pats were consistently in the bottom 3rd for dead money and had an unproductive team, I'd be concerned. But they're generally replacing these cuts with players who are producing more for cheaper.

 

[Brady6]

Somehow, someway, this must be Josh McDaniel's fault.

I do not think so; he was not part of the Fanene or Johnson acquisitions.

 

[Brady6]

Seriously? Cap management?

Of all the things to ***** about with this team, cap management may be above only winning percentage, if we were to list problems with this team in order from biggest to least.

***** about personnel moves. There's plenty of meat on that bone.

I am not sure why everyone has such a negative conjecture sometimes. This was question, what you think of the cap management, my answer is personally I think it has been below par compared to other years, if you disagree than provide a counter. I am looking to have a discussion and I enter it with my opinion but I am not saying my opinion is the reality so I am hoping to hear from others, I am not looking to beat something down for the sake of doing so.

 

[Jackson 2]

Yeah because having 18 team’s in front of you is the gold standard for a great job...

I opened the thread to ask a question and hear other people’s opinions, not to have my list critiqued.

Suggestion for all, before you take a shot at others opinions at least has the fortitude to outline your own opinion. Not doing so is the weakest form of posting.

You did, indeed ask for others' opinions, but when those opinions were presented, you expressed displeasure when they contradicted yours. But when your list, which is a key piece of your opinion, was criticized you said you didn't want it critiqued. Huh? Frankly, it looks to me as if it wasn't other opinions you were seeking, but, rather, affirmation of your own. Just my take.

 

[Brady6]

One other point. Dead money itself is often just reflection of management styles.

When Belichick gives up on a player, he just cuts him, period. Doesn't matter where he was drafted, doesn't matter if he was a free agent signing. If he thinks the player won't contribute and someone else cheaper will, he cuts the guy.

A lot of teams don't follow that philosophy. They hold onto draft picks longer simply because they made such a big investment in him. They hold onto free agent signings because it would make management look bad to cut them so quickly. Ras-I was almost a 1st round pick, and he was released after 2 years. Who else does that? Most teams would have held on to him for another year. There wouldn't be a dead-cap charge from him, but there wouldn't be any production out of him either.

What's worse? A lot of dead money but a productive roster --or minimal dead money, but a lot of "dead" roster spots held by players who hardly play or play poorly? That's why dead money is only part of the equation. If the Pats were consistently in the bottom 3rd for dead money and had an unproductive team, I'd be concerned. But they're generally replacing these cuts with players who are producing more for cheaper.

I hear what you are saying but I am looking at the players that many suggest we cut and even if we do, so this dead money remains.

Wilfork-$3,600,000
Connolly-$1,083,334
Gregory-$833,334
Sopoaga-$1,000,000
Kelly-$500,000
A. Wilson-$666,667
Total-$7,683,335

On some levels as I have said before I am not a cap expert but I am trying to understand it better, so these types of moves or as some label “sunk costs” are natures of the business. I am looking at things economically and I guess I am curious if there is a way to avoid them, I look at the Packers who seem to be under $5M in each of the last 2 years and it makes me question if we’re taking to many risks for the hope of a reward than we should.

 

[Brady6]

You did, indeed ask for others' opinions, but when those opinions were presented, you expressed displeasure when they contradicted yours. But when your list, which is a key piece of your opinion, was criticized you said you didn't want it critiqued. Huh? Frankly, it looks to me as if it wasn't other opinions you were seeking, but, rather, affirmation of your own. Just my take.

Not true at all, you gave your opinion and I did not say anything because it was stated and justified with a reason(s). I expressed displeasure with the posters who just shot out a 1-liner about what I posted but provided nothing of merit.

I like all people like affirmation but I can accept a counter as long as it is justified, I do not like the “HA what a fool you are response” that provide nothing creditable or meaningful they simply fulfill someone’s need to say (post) something.

 

[goheels22002]

I think that everyone is feeling the squeeze from a relatively flat cap, which magnifies personnel decisions. The Pats have had a few long term deals which may have been a little questionable in retrospect. Hernandez is the obvious one, but it could certainly be argued that they overpaid for Logan Mankins and are paying for past rather than present performance. I personally think they overpaid for Steve Gregory and Dan Connolly, and especially for Kyle Arrington. But overall, compared to the rest of the league, they are pretty solid. There is risk anytime you give a player a multi-year deal, as it is difficult to foresee circumstances that far ahead.

The flat cap is also a product of the NFLPA getting fleeced by the owners. There is no reason whatsoever that the owners should get to keep roughly 60% of the revenue while the players bear the majority of the risk. The average team takes in $286 million (see attached chart) while the cap is stuck in the $122 million to $125 million range. http://www.vanderbilt.edu/econ/faculty/Vrooman/league-basics-s14.pdf

 

[MassPats38]

For the record, we signed Hernandez, which was our decision. The fact is he very well could have been pulling drive by shootings the week before he signed his contract and we clearly were not doing our DD screening our personnel. We own some of the Hernandez mistake; do not get me wrong the kids a punk as piece of **** but we acted ignorantly based on how he was behaving.

What due diligence do you envision the Pats doing - a ride-along in the prior shooting? Sending private investigators after players does not facilitate contracts. Hernandez was signed for bus fare through 2013. The deal 2 years prior to that was characterized by virtually everybody as proactive and intelligent. If they waited until his contract year, then he would have tested free agency for a much larger deal, and I expect you may have been bleating with everyone else about why the Pats play these silly games and lose good players in the process when they realize pricey deals beyond what the Pats consider acceptable.

Don't act like you saw this coming, because you didn't. Hernandez's actions are well beyond the norm, and whether the guy eats a bullet or makes someone else do so, that pretty much defines beyond the scope of due diligence. Due diligence is reasonable investigation, and that means history and current problems of which the normal, prudent person would reasonably be aware. An individual's penchant for homicide, absent convictions or charges of the same in public records, tends not to be readily discovered. Plenty of NFL players join the NFL from the mean streets with checkered pasts, so claiming this eventuality should have been know is silly.

Hernandez is the beginning, middle and end of any claim of bad cap management. The rest of the dead money is easily absorbed as player management expenses.

 

[Brady6]

What due diligence do you envision the Pats doing - a ride-along in the prior shooting? Sending private investigators after players does not facilitate contracts. Hernandez was signed for bus fare through 2013. The deal 2 years prior to that was characterized by virtually everybody as proactive and intelligent. If they waited until his contract year, then he would have tested free agency for a much larger deal, and I expect you may have been bleating with everyone else about why the Pats play these silly games and lose good players in the process when they realize pricey deals beyond what the Pats consider acceptable.



Don't act like you saw this coming, because you didn't. Hernandez's actions are well beyond the norm, and whether the guy eats a bullet or makes someone else do so, that pretty much defines beyond the scope of due diligence. Due diligence is reasonable investigation, and that means history and current problems of which the normal, prudent person would reasonably be aware. An individual's penchant for homicide, absent convictions or charges of the same in public records, tends not to be readily discovered. Plenty of NFL players join the NFL from the mean streets with checkered pasts, so claiming this eventuality should have been know is silly.



Hernandez is the beginning, middle and end of any claim of bad cap management. The rest of the dead money is easily absorbed as player management expenses.

I don't act like I saw this coming but I also did give him $40 million. He signed the contract on 8/27/2012 he is being eyed as the shooter in a double homicide on 7/16/2012. We missed something all of us including the fans (me).

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

I never said differently. You are choosing to focus on Hernandez only but I see these hits on over the cap:

Brandon Lloyd-$3,500,000
Jonathan Fanene-$2,566,667
Chad Johnson-$1,583,334
Leon Washington-$1,200,000
Ras-I Dowling-$940,759
Daniel Fells-$333,333
Jabar Gaffney-$125,000
Spencer Larsen-$125,000
Lavelle Hawkins-$100,000
Total-$10,474,093

Those were all just bad decisions.

That aside I am not a cap expert, which is why I asked the question what you think of our management recently. I feel it has not been as tight as it has been in the past, if you disagree that is fine. I do not really want to get into a back and forth with excuses and “it is not their fault” conversation, because I understand all the circumstances and I still think it has been poor compared to the cap management during the 2000s. Tom Brady has bailed us out a lot, and people confuse that for excellent cap management but if he didn’t take the team first deals we would not be viewed in the same light.

If we're talking about dead money hits of $125,000 and less as "bad decisions," then no team in the NFL knows what they're doing. Paying someone a small signing bonus but things simply not working out happens all the time, every single year for all of the NFL.

The one thing all those players have in common is they didn't sign ridiculous contracts. They all signed fair or below average deals and they simply didn't work out. Sometimes it happens.

Also, were we that much better back in the early 2000s? Obviously the situation dictated it but in 2002, we had a cap hit of over $6.5 million for Drew Bledsoe. In terms of the cap, we paid him more than Buffalo that year. (that's also when the cap was only just over $71 million)

In 2004, we had a cap charge of over $4 million for Lawyer Milloy. No one cares because we had Rodney Harrison and we won a Super Bowl. It's no different than no one caring that Seattle ate it on the Matt Flynn deal because they're only paying Russell Wilson $800,000 and they won a Super Bowl.

As others have said, the names on your list are just player management. Again, none of those players were signed to insane contracts that came back to bite us hard when we had to let them go. It isn't like Lloyd had a cap hit of over $12 million so we had no choice but to cut him. We could afford him, but simply decided he wasn't worth the money he would be paid. Lloyd, along with everyone else on your list, signed fair, reasonable deals. They didn't work out. Your complaint isn't cap management, it's personnel decisions.

 

[mgteich]

If Hernandez hadn't committed a couple of murders we would have less than ZERO dead money at this point. I suppose we can blame the FO for not foreseeing this. Personally I think that this is absurd.

 

[mgteich]

If we are to look at managing contracts of players that we MIGHT cut, then we should do that for the rest of the teams.

 

[supafly]

As a whole, I think they've done a fine job.

They stick to their business model on a consistent basis, have had success predicting the future re: the movement of the market, do not tend to budge from their set value too often, and constantly have the bigger, longer term picture in mind at all times.

Sure, there have been mistakes--but one could argue that those are more personnel related than they are cap management just as well. No NFL team is perfect, but over a long term period I would say that many of the other 31 teams would gladly have accepted the Patriots model.