Need For Change - The Defensive Line

[mayoclinic]

I understand your rationale, but we have limited $$ to spend. I'd rather prioritize and allocate accordingly. We've gone into a draft before relatively barren at a position (TE in 2010, in a deep TE draft, as this one is) and we've also found that having a "complete team" may be an illusion (e.g., Donald Jones and Michael Jenkins at WR last year). I'd rather spend my money on quality additions and address some holes in a very deep and strong draft than try and address all needs in FA and come out with a diluted talent pool.

Who exactly would you target in FA to address these needs, so that we go into the draft as a "complete team", how much do you estimate the cost of those targets to be, and how do you plan to cover that cost given all the other needs?

I agree with your analysis.

My only nitpick is my personal bias against going into the draft hoping that your will be able to get draftees to meet a particular need and have them contribute as rookies. You have a fine plan to allocate two picks to DE and to fill that need.

My idea is that we go into the draft with a complete team, perhaps with one major need (likely to be TE this year). This gives the flexibility to pick the best valued player at a position of need whenever we pick.

 

[Ring 6]

Let me be simplistic.

1) I don't think that we should count on Ninkovich and Chandler Jones for over 90% of the defensive reps with only Bequette as a backup.

I have no problem wit that but you were calling for a 3rd starter plus a 3rd down rusher.

2) I don't think that we should count on Mayo, Hightower and Collins with no backups.

Of course, but that has nothing to do with your comment that you don't think Collins will e a major contributor which he already has been.

3) I think that we need competition for Buchanan as our sub-package DE.

That is redundant with a DE who can sub in and reduce the snaps Jones and Ninkovich play, unless we have unlimited money to spend.

 

[Ring 6]

So, you are accusing me of not paying attention to the salary cap? I did refer to mayo's post on another thread and the article he cited. To be clear, I don't think that it is easy to upgrade the DL. We are currently making decisions on players with rather large cap hits at DT. IMHO, it is a time for decision-making. Belichick may make any significant changes. I still think that the needs are worth discussing.

I'm not accusing you of anything, but your plan at DE alone will use up almost all of our cap resources to get a starter to sit on the bench and a pass rushing specialist to be 4th on the depth chart. I'd love to get Jimmy Graham in case Gronk gets injured again, but thats silly when you look at the rest of the needs and the resources to get them with.

I suppose that I am guilty of looking at the defense and offense separately.

There is nothing wrong with that unless you spend all of the cap dollars on one piece of one unit.

As always, we come into the offseason with needs, and our own UFA's. I agree that we have cap constraints.

The question before the house is how we should spend money and draft choices on the defense.

Of course we should, as always. But calling for a 3rd starter at a position only 2 players play then doubling down with a 4th who is a better pass rusher is a pipe dream under a cap, in our situation. Perhaps if we had a QB making 500k like Seattle we could overspend on the DL too.

We are looking at needs. Perhaps, Belichick will have no money left for the position of DE and simply assume that Ninkovich and Jones can continue to play 90% of the reps. Who is the #3? Should we really believe that Bequeete will step up.

Again, you call for a 'starter' and a guy who is a better pass rusher to put them on the bench on 3rd down. There are miles between that and relying on a dud.

Ok. Let's try it another way. I'm not sure why Collins should be considered a solid starter based on one month of solid performance. In any case, who are our #4 and #5 linebackers?

Seriously? You do not think Collins belongs? Did you watch him play? What do you want him to do?
Of course we need depth, but 'who is the 4 and 5' is not the response to an apparent call for a new starter based on your doubt that Collins should start.
If we have to get a new player at every position that we have less confidence about going into 2014 than Jaime Collins we will need about 12 new starters signed at least.

 

[mgteich]

A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE
------------------------------

Our #3, #4 and #5 DE's were BEQUETTE, CARTER and BUCHANAN.

Please discuss the need for upgrades. I suspect that Carter would come back, so we could have he same DE's as last year if we wish, or if this is all we can afford.

I would note that there are no backup linebackers to depend on as backups. We have 3 starters, plus two free agents.

 

[mayoclinic]

A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE
------------------------------

Our #3, #4 and #5 DE's were BEQUETTE, CARTER and BUCHANAN.

Please discuss the need for upgrades. I suspect that Carter would come back, so we could have he same DE's as last year if we wish, or if this is all we can afford.

I would note that there are no backup linebackers to depend on as backups. We have 3 starters, plus two free agents.

Already discussed. See post #17 above:

We had a rookie version of Buchanan, an over the hill version of Carter, and a useless version of Bequette as our depth at DE last year. Pathetic. I would argue that anyone is likely to be an upgrade over Carter and Bequette, and that Buchanan year 2 will hopefully be better than Buchanan year 1.

I don't think there's any question that we need more effective depth at the DE position. The question is how to get it, how much of a priority it is vs. the other areas, and how much to spend.

I also discussed the need for LB depth in the same post:

Fletcher is great depth, and I want him back if the price is reasonable. He can play all 3 LB positions at a reasonable level.

I absolutely want a #4 LB for depth behind Mayo, Hightower and Collins. Ideally, I'd like someone with DE/OLB versatility who can also fill the sub rusher role, or free up Collins and/or Hightower to take some reps on the DL in sub packages.

Unless you believe that Steve Beauharnais is ready to step up, there's a need at both positions.

 

[Ring 6]

A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE
------------------------------

Our #3, #4 and #5 DE's were BEQUETTE, CARTER and BUCHANAN.

Please discuss the need for upgrades. I suspect that Carter would come back, so we could have he same DE's as last year if we wish, or if this is all we can afford.

I would note that there are no backup linebackers to depend on as backups. We have 3 starters, plus two free agents.

There is a big gap between not being able to afford more than those guys and spending 10 mill on DEs.
I have always been in favor of adding pass rushers. Frankly I'd like to see pass rushing DE upgrade the Ninovich spot moving him to the rotational guy, with Buchanan being a developmental rusher.
I expect we will really see someone a few notches below Ninkovich added.

Of course we need depth at LB, but its Feb 1.

 

[mayoclinic]

Frankly I'd like to see pass rushing DE upgrade the Ninovich spot moving him to the rotational guy, with Buchanan being a developmental rusher.

This would also be my ideal.

 

[captain stone]

Unless you believe that Steve Beauharnais is ready to step up, there's a need at both positions.

Should I not then be hopeful that Beauharnais could deserve some snaps on defense next season?

 

[AzorianPats]

Couple of things from my perspective...

1. I think the need for DT all depends on 3 guys that are coming off IR. Wilfork, Kelly, and Armstead. If 2 of those guys are ready, I don't even think DT should be addressed this off season. Rework the Wilfork and Kelly deals. Siliga was pretty good at the end. A rotation of him and Vince would be great for the both of them. Cut Sopoago.

2. I think Chris Jones was doing pretty good as a pass rushing DT, until injuries forced him to play full time. He was Mike Wright like. Also Kelly pretty good at getting at the QB...and that was Armstead thing in college and the CFL. The developments of Siliga and Armstead could be huge for this team. If those guys pan out they just upgraded and got younger at that position without using high capitol on draft picks or $$$$

3. Pass rush might be the biggest need on this team. Manning carved us because he was comfortable all game literally. Chandler, and Ninko are fine, but we need more there. There was rumors last year on us being interested in Michael Johnson, let's see if we persue him this year. Bequette as shown nothing and Carter is retiring. Buchanan seems ok. I think we can should get 2 more DE's. Maybe our new DL coach can give us the scoop on Jared Allen? If he has something left, maybe he can come here on a reasonable deal, and go after the QB on passing downs. That and maybe a high draft pick?

I dont care who you got back at DB. A pass rush can make average DB look good/great.

 

[mayoclinic]

Should I not then be hopeful that Beauharnais could deserve some snaps on defense next season?

I don't know. He had a Jake Bequette kind of year, being a healthy scratch for almost the entire season. He was a 7th round pick rather than a 3rd, so his developmental time would be expected to be longer. Maybe he steps up next year and becomes the #5 LB, maybe he takes over Fletcher's role if Fletcher doesn't re-sign, or maybe he doesn't make it out of training camp. I have no expectations for him at this point.

 

[patsderoer]

Unleash the beast

Jake Bequette top 10 pass rusher 2012 NFL draft - YouTube

 

[mayoclinic]

Unleash the beast

Jake Bequette top 10 pass rusher 2012 NFL draft - YouTube

You're certainly consistent.

 

[Brady6]

I think we should sign Vaughn Martin to a futures/reserve contract.

Report: Patriots interested in Chargers DL Martin

Vaughn Martin | Western Ontario, DT : 2009 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

 

[Brady6]

Unleash the beast

Jake Bequette top 10 pass rusher 2012 NFL draft - YouTube

I actually think that Bequette would be a decent pass rusher but he sucks so bad in every other aspect of the game (especially setting the edge) that he cannot get on the field.

 

[All22PatsFan]

I think the Patriots release Wilfork and add a DE. I think Michael Johnson could be that guy, I also think the patriots should draft a pass-rushing DT, I like Aaron Donald and he is projected to go late first early 2nd. Wilfork will be relaxed by Siliga who has proven to be a top of the line starter.

This is what the D-line would look like:
RE: Jones, Buchanan, Bequette
DT: Siliga, Vellano, Jones
DT: Donald, Armstead
LE: Ninkovich, Johnson

This provides a three man alternated DE group with Buchanan as the 4th guy, It also provides a pass rusher who can sub in on third downs. Donald, Armstead and Jones can all alternate snaps as well.

 

[mgteich]

A) We have a defense with needs at CB, DT, DE and LB.

B) We have $12M of avoidable cap money tied up in Wilfork, Kelly and Sopoaga.

C) We have Jones, Siliga, Jones, Ninkovich, Buchanan, Mayo, Hightower and Collins (our top 8).

D) We have Bequette, Beauharnais, Forston, Armstead, Grissom and Vellano available to compete for the 6-8 remaining roster spots.

E) I think that we need to consider our priorities in spending this money.

You all think that we don't have the money to spend on a DE, yet we seem to have the money to spend on a DT (even in addition to Kelly). Belichick has serious choices to make.

I would not be at all surprised to see us have the same poor depth at DE in 2014 that we had in 2013. But that situation is a choice to be made. It is not a given.

It amazes me how we look at an individual unit, and treat it as if there is not a rest of the team and/or we have a 200mill cap.

 

[Ring 6]

A) We have a defense with needs at CB, DT, DE and LB.

B) We have $12M of avoidable cap money tied up in Wilfork, Kelly and Sopoaga.

C) We have Jones, Siliga, Jones, Ninkovich, Buchanan, Mayo, Hightower and Collins (our top 8).

D) We have Bequette, Beauharnais, Forston, Armstead, Grissom and Vellano available to compete for the 6-8 remaining roster spots.

E) I think that we need to consider our priorities in spending this money.

You all think that we don't have the money to spend on a DE, yet we seem to have the money to spend on a DT (even in addition to Kelly). Belichick has serious choices to make.

I would not be at all surprised to see us have the same poor depth at DE in 2014 that we had in 2013. But that situation is a choice to be made. It is not a given.

You are talking about spending 10 mill on BACKUP DEs.

 

[hypotherion]

Any Interest in Arthur Jones?

Free agent DT Arthur Jones is on vacation with brother Chandler, Patriots teammates

 

[mgteich]

The $10M suggestion is yours. No one has suggested that. I have simply suggesting considering bring in a DE or two. You seem fine with Bequette and a Carter fa equivalent.

We are discussing priorities. One blunt suggestion is that I would rather spend $4M on a DE/OLB than on Wilfork.

You are talking about spending 10 mill on BACKUP DEs.

 

[stelfans]

Any Interest in Arthur Jones?

Free agent DT Arthur Jones is on vacation with brother Chandler, Patriots teammates

Thats right boys, bring arthur to NE.