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Deathmatch, Part Deux: The 4-way battle for Patriots' CB1

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Talib, Grimes, Davis or Shields

  • Talib

    Votes: 21 77.8%
  • Grimes

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Davis

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Shields

    Votes: 2 7.4%
  • None of the above: All aboard the Logan Ryan Express!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
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The patriots are height-challenged at WR and CB. This has been the case for years. Why do we think that Belichick will now change his ideas of what makes a good wide receiver or corner?

Well, he did sign Talib, and Leigh Bodden (6'1" 193#) previously, so he's not entirely averse to tall CBs. Bodden was the last CB to get a long-term deal ... didn't work out, but they tried.
 
I apologize.

If I knew how, it would have been done.

mg, would you kindly merge this thread with the identically titled thread that has the poll in it?
 
Have somewhat of an answer on the toss up between Sheilds and Talib...

Secenario 1 - Both CB's demand around the same amount of money: Talib

Scenario 2 - Talib demands more money than Shields: Shields

In scenario one, I would go with Talib. He has experience in the system, has worked hard, and has been one of the harder CB's to throw against while under Belichick's tutelage. Pay him and hope he remains healthy into the playoffs.

In scenario two, I have Talib demanding more money than Shields (which is the more likely option to happen). If that occurs, I would go with Shields. He doesn't have as checkered an injury history as Talib has and is a pure press man corner with SPEED. The Patriots, as they are currently constructed, don't have one speed corner that they can field against the likes of Mike Wallace, DeSean Jackson, etc. Talib infamously struggles against those kind of WR's. So if he wants more money, I would take Shields. He's not as physical, but he is capable of playing man coverage and could be the speed corner to complement our physical CB2 in Dennard. Add to that that his injury history is not as consistent in one area of the body as Talib and you have a winner.
 
The issue for me is Talib's persistent injury. Why has there been no surgery? Why has there been no rehab that works?

We already depend on at least three part-timers: Vollmer, Gronkowski and Dennard. Should be add another? Belichick's answer is likely to be yes. His approach seems to be that we are unlucky when players with injury histories are out or injured at playoff time.

Belichick deals well with the tradeoff of paying less for players with injury (or other) histories. The price is lower, but the number of games played is also lower.
Can you explain the bold? It sounds like you expect allpro backups to our allpros.
Vollmer was replaced by Cannon, who turned out to be one of the best reserve OTs in the NFL. Note we also had a capable veteran as the 4th OT.
Not sure how Dennard is considered a part time player.
As far as TE what more would you have wanted BB to do than have the following TEs signed for this season: Gronk, Hernandez, Ballard, Fells, Hooman? What approach would you like him to have? Trying to sign 5 starters at every position?
Please show us all of the teams that have more depth and an 'approach' that does a better job of dealing with injuries compared to your characterization of BB ignoring depth and hoping no one gets hurt.
 
GENERAL STRATEGY
I believe that Belichick is more likely to draft or sign players with injuries (and other issues) than other coaches. Do you disagree?

DEPTH
I agree that Belichick is the best in the league with regard to depth.

OFFENSIVE TACKLE
I agree that Cannon and Svitek are important reserves. I want to extend Cannon. I think that he is NEEDED as a backup OT because of the injury history to Vollmer. But for me, this is a fine example of Belichick's successful strategy.

TIGHT END
OK, we entered June with four players with injury histories, Hooman and an UDFA. Most here understood that Gronk needed time and would likely not be ready for the start of the season. Belichick knew even more about all the injuries than any of us (by far).

Most of us thought that we needed two starting tight ends and two backups (of course, one could ahve been an h-back). Hooman was fine as one of the backups. If the tight end position was truly critical to the team, it SEEMS that we could have done better after July 1.

Maybe there were ZERO appropriate options from July 1 on, when it was clear that Hernandez was gone and the rest were iffy. I don't think that it reasonable to blame injuries to all our tight ends when these were well known issues before July 1. Maybe there were ZERO better options at wide receiver. We know what happened. The season for the offense was truly amazing, given what Brady had to throw to.

So, as of now in JANUARY, we have an oft-injured Gronkowski, a great player. For the rest, we are building from scratch. Do we want to be a team that relies on the tight end position or not. For me, we need to use major resources at tight end, probably two draft choices.

DEFENSIVE LINE
We were indeed very unlucky to have both Wilfork and Kelly injured (Wilfork in camp). It was extremely impressive to see what we did with street free agents and UDFA's like Siliga, Jones and Vellano. Belichick added potential help with Sopoaga.

And how prepared were we (are we) at DE? Ninkovich and Jones played over 90% of the reps. Are we really supposed to think that we were well prepared with Bequette and Buchanan ready to step in? This is our SECOND greatest backup need this year (along with TE)

Was our DL depth really great?

CORNERBACK
I guess it is my imagination. What I saw in Dennard this year was a fine player who was often injured, and played through his injuries at diminished capacity. Did you see something different?

My point is that if we are to have Talib, Dennard and Arrington as our starters at CB and nickel, then we better have TWO backups who can step in when the inevitable injuries happen.

OTHER TEAMS
You must understand by now that I watch little of other teams. In any case, when I watched the playoffs, I saw teams have a rotation in the defensive front seven even in base formations. IMHO, top defenses don't expect players to play over 90% of the reps.

BOTTOM LINE
I do not expect all-pro backups. I am simply noting that when we have injury prone players, backups are more important.

Can you explain the bold? It sounds like you expect allpro backups to our allpros.
Vollmer was replaced by Cannon, who turned out to be one of the best reserve OTs in the NFL. Note we also had a capable veteran as the 4th OT.
Not sure how Dennard is considered a part time player.
As far as TE what more would you have wanted BB to do than have the following TEs signed for this season: Gronk, Hernandez, Ballard, Fells, Hooman? What approach would you like him to have? Trying to sign 5 starters at every position?
Please show us all of the teams that have more depth and an 'approach' that does a better job of dealing with injuries compared to your characterization of BB ignoring depth and hoping no one gets hurt.
 
23PDs this season and 5 INTs? Talib had 13 PDs and 4 INT. Verner looks good.
Anyone has QBrating when thrown against them?

Per PFF (so take it with a grain of salt if you will), Verner was #1 in opposing QB passer rating in 2013. I would love to have him but wonder what he will command and how hard Tennessee will try to keep him.
 
23PDs this season and 5 INTs? Talib had 13 PDs and 4 INT. Verner looks good.
Anyone has QBrating when thrown against them?

Yeah it was second best in the NFL behind on Sherman.

In the Titans’ new press-man scheme, Verner excelled as a physical shutdown cornerback. Quarterbacks throwing into his coverage managed a measly 54.7 passer rating in 2013, bested only by Richard Sherman. He still has some work to do as a run defender, but offers boatloads of upside at 25-years-old.
Read more at Minnesota Vikings Rumors: Alterraun Verner Headed for Twin Cities?
 
Per PFF (so take it with a grain of salt if you will), Verner was #1 in opposing QB passer rating in 2013. I would love to have him but wonder what he will command and how hard Tennessee will try to keep him.

He would be my top choice for a CB personally. He is 25 years old and he has played in 64/64 games in his NFL career.
 
He would be my top choice for a CB personally. He is 25 years old and he has played in 64/64 games in his NFL career.

I'd still go with Talib. Verner's a very good player, but he's only 5' 10". Reminds me of where Brandon Flowers was a couple of years ago.
 
This is how the CBs rank in the top 100 UFA list currently.

6. Alterraun Verner
7. Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
14. Brent Grimes
18. Vontae Davis
20. Aqib Talib
23. Captain Munnerlyn
33. Sam Shields
36. Walter Thurmond
73. Drayton Florence
87. Corey Graham
92. DeAngelo Hall
98. Aaron Ross

2014 NFL Unrestricted Free Agents by position - NFL.com
 
I'd still go with Talib. Verner's a very good player, but he's only 5' 10". Reminds me of where Brandon Flowers was a couple of years ago.

I love Talib but he has never played a full NFL season in 6 years in the league. Verner has played 64/64.

That said I don’t really think Talib is going to command big bucks on the free agent market like everyone thinks.
 
So, you'd like to Verner at CB and Mack at C. Maybe if we had Oakland's cap situation, your wishes would be more reasonable.

In any case, I don't think Verner is in the budget.

He would be my top choice for a CB personally. He is 25 years old and he has played in 64/64 games in his NFL career.
 
So, you'd like to Verner at CB and Mack at C. Maybe if we had Oakland's cap situation, your wishes would be more reasonable.



In any case, I don't think Verner is in the budget.


I don't remember saying I wanted Mack I said I would love to have him but not anymore than anyone else.

Verner is in the same class as the other CBs listed if I had to sign only one it would be him.
 
Talib's off to a big early lead. I'm not as surprised about this as I was about the Edelman/Mack thread.



For the record, my answer would depend on contract length

Short contract:

Grimes
Shields
Davis
Talib


Long contract:

Davis
Shields
Talib
Grimes


Tough to explain, beyond injuries and age. The longer the deal, the more I favor Talib over Grimes. Also, if I'm looking at a 1-2 year "really show me" contract with the puppies, I want Shields but, if I'm giving out a longer deal, I'll take Davis since he's the safer play.


Just my $.02.
 
I want Grimes but it's either going to be Talib or Ryan.
 
So, you'd like to Verner at CB and Mack at C. Maybe if we had Oakland's cap situation, your wishes would be more reasonable.

In any case, I don't think Verner is in the budget.

There's also an issue of continuity vs. turnover. I think that we have had tremendous turnover in the secondary - it has completely changed since 2010, and was in flux for all of 2011 and half of 2012 - and it finally seems to have stabilized. I don't want to mess with it for a comparable ability outside CB. I'd like to be very settled, and then upgrade the areas that can do with an upgrade:

CB1: Talib
CB2: Dennard
CB3/Slot: Ryan
CB4/Slot: Arrington
Backup Outside CB: Need to upgrade - a rookie with length who can play press-man would be fine by me.

S1: McCourty; backup: Harmon
S2: Gregory for now, but potentially upgradeable; backup: Wilson/Ebner = very upgradeable

I understand that there's a chance Talib may price himself out of the market, but that's very different from wanting to replace him. The secondary needs continuity, not more turnover.
 
Agreed.

This works for me.

Your plan calls for upgrades at #5 CB and our #4 S. That certainly seems reasonable. I would note that our #4/#5 safety now has several folks competing, certainly the two Wilson's. Ebner, and a PS type or two.

As always, we will consider the secondary in the draft, both corner and safety.

There's also an issue of continuity vs. turnover. I think that we have had tremendous turnover in the secondary - it has completely changed since 2010, and was in flux for all of 2011 and half of 2012 - and it finally seems to have stabilized. I don't want to mess with it for a comparable ability outside CB. I'd like to be very settled, and then upgrade the areas that can do with an upgrade:

CB1: Talib
CB2: Dennard
CB3/Slot: Ryan
CB4/Slot: Arrington
Backup Outside CB: Need to upgrade - a rookie with length who can play press-man would be fine by me.

S1: McCourty; backup: Harmon
S2: Gregory for now, but potentially upgradeable; backup: Wilson/Ebner = very upgradeable

I understand that there's a chance Talib may price himself out of the market, but that's very different from wanting to replace him. The secondary needs continuity, not more turnover.
 
Agreed.

This works for me.

Your plan calls for upgrades at #5 CB and our #4 S. That certainly seems reasonable. I would note that our #4/#5 safety now has several folks competing, certainly the two Wilson's. Ebner, and a PS type or two.

As always, we will consider the secondary in the draft, both corner and safety.

Ebner has developed as a core STer, and he could potentially be the successor to Slater in the role, so I would tend to keep him. I also think that he still has some upside at safety, since he never played the position; I'm not expecting miracles, but at times last season he appeared to be ahead of Wilson on the depth chart.

Gregory and Wilson are both easily upgradeable; I think replacing one of them makes sense, along with adding a #5 CB. Too much turnover creates chaos. There are a ton of guys in the day 2-3 range of the draft who could be good fits at both outside CB and safety:

- Day 2: Lamarcus Joyner, Kyle Fuller, Stanley Jean-Baptiste
- Day 2/early day 3: Keith McGill
- Day 3: Aaron Colvin (would be day 2 except for his ACL injury), Jonathan Dowling, Antone Exum, Dontae Johnson, Vinnie Sunseri

I think you can find a 5th CB who can play press-man and an upgrade at #4 safety on day 3 of the draft. Say Antone Exum or Jonathan Dowling at safety and Aaron Colvin at CB, but there are lots of options.

Keep Talib-Dennard-McCourty as the base along with Ryan-Arrington-Harmon and add 2 more of those guys, and the secondary would be in very good shape.
 
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