Deathmatch, Part Deux: The 4-way battle for Patriots' CB1

[Deus Irae]

Brent Grimes
Aquib Talib
Sam Shields
Vontae Davis


Four men enter.
One man leaves with a contract.




Who ya got*?











*and why

 

[Kontradiction]

Can we get examples of contract demands for this exercise or is it just straight up?

 

[Observer]

Talib... Bird in the hand.

 

[Deus Irae]

Can we get examples of contract demands for this exercise or is it just straight up?

My guess is that all 4 will be asking for good money, but I've not seen any numbers bandied about. If you (or anyone else) can find some, that would be great. If not, a reasonable best guess is probably the way to go.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that either Grimes or Talib will settle for less than what they got last year, for example.

 

[mayoclinic]

Assuming all 4 are for the same contract (or at least within the same range), Talib, and again, it's not close:

- Talib has 1 1/2 years with the team and in the system.
- There was a clear "trickle down" effect on the secondary with Talib present.
- He was lauded for his work ethic and leadership.
- He fit in well on the team.
- He played at a Pro Bowl and All Pro level this year, and at a near DPOY level before getting dinged.

The downside on Talib is (i) his hip/injury issue, (ii) the potential for off-field issues, and (iii) possibly money. Assuming money is a wash, I think he's been a good citizen for us, and the off-field risk is minimal. He's tough and played through his hip issue, and played well (though not as well as the first 6 games of the season). The AFCCG injury was separate, and is fortunately not serious. If any of those 3 issues were considered significant, that might change the equation.

I don't think Shields or Davis are in the same class as Talib. Grimes has played very well at times, but he's 3 years older than Talib, and I think Talib is the better player.

 

[Kontradiction]

My guess is that all 4 will be asking for good money, but I've not seen any numbers bandied about. If you (or anyone else) can find some, that would be great. If not, a reasonable best guess is probably the way to go.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect that either Grimes or Talib will settle for less than what they got last year, for example.

In that case, it's a toss up between Talib and Shields. Grimes comes close, but those are the two that I would have my eye on. I'll weigh it out and come back with an answer.

 

[Deus Irae]

Son of a gun, I forgot to put the poll in. I'll reboot the thread and hope the mods merge them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brent Grimes
Aquib Talib
Sam Shields
Vontae Davis


Four men enter.
One man leaves with a contract.




Who ya got*?











*and why

 

[50-yard-line]

Talib and it's not close. I really like Grimes, but he and the other two you listed are all under 6'.

None of them can handle the D. Thomas/C or A Johnson type of receivers. Talib is long enough to handle the big dog receivers - the other Pats corners aren't.

 

[BradyManny]

Talib is the best. The guy isn't capable of staying healthy for 16 games, and has had terrible fortune at the most inopportune times.

There's going to be a lot of hand-wringing about the Patriots roster between now and next January, and I will be right there with everyone every step of the way...but I can pretty much spoiler alert the whole season for you - if Talib [provided he is on the roster], Brady and Gronk are healthy, we'll be playing in the Super Bowl. If they aren't, we won't.

As much as we sweat roster spots 4-53, when you have three guys who are the best at their position in the NFL, you are going to win a lot. Bringing him back and rolling the dice on the health is probably the best option.

 

[mgteich]

The issue for me is Talib's persistent injury. Why has there been no surgery? Why has there been no rehab that works?

We already depend on at least three part-timers: Vollmer, Gronkowski and Dennard. Should be add another? Belichick's answer is likely to be yes. His approach seems to be that we are unlucky when players with injury histories are out or injured at playoff time.

Belichick deals well with the tradeoff of paying less for players with injury (or other) histories. The price is lower, but the number of games played is also lower.

 

[BradyManny]

The issue for me is Talib's persistent injury. Why has there been no surgery? Why has there been no rehab that works?

I edited this sentiment out of my post because it felt a tangent, but now that you bring it up...ideally, with Talib, you'd have a "poor man's Talib" also on the roster. I know that sounds like an embarrassment of riches, but really, you think of a young long corner you pluck from the draft. What we wanted Ras-I Dowling to be, for instance.

Because when Talib went down, as good as we are at CB2-4, and we were as good there as anybody in the league, we got smoked because no one could be physical with Demaryius.

 

[mayoclinic]

Talib. As explained previously in the first version of this thread.

 

[mgteich]

I agree.

With Talib on the roster, we need an extra position corner. I presume that we would draft one if we re-sign Talib.

Having a guy like Cole as our #5 becomes unacceptable. We need a #5 who can play when the inevitable injuries happen.

I edited this sentiment out of my post because it felt a tangent, but now that you bring it up...ideally, with Talib, you'd have a "poor man's Talib" also on the roster. I know that sounds like an embarrassment of riches, but really, you think of a young long corner you pluck from the draft. What we wanted Ras-I Dowling to be, for instance.

Because when Talib went down, as good as we are at CB2-4, and we were as good there as anybody in the league, we got smoked because no one could be physical with Demaryius.

 

[BradyManny]

I agree.

With Talib on the roster, we need an extra position corner. I presume that we would draft one if we re-sign Talib.

Having a guy like Cole as our #5 becomes unacceptable. We need a #5 who can play when the inevitable injuries happen.

Perfectly said. And this is critical to the discussion on Talib (I called it a tangent only b/c my post was centered on making a separate point).

Signing Talib and drafting a second guy capable of going up against big targets would be ideal. The question is if we have the draft capital to do so. We have needs in the trenches that - provided Talib resigned - would become priority. If you're looking for a poor man's Talib, maybe it means you take a guy with slower hips who is available in later rounds. That's fine by me. I just want a guy who can get his hands on Demaryius on the line if need be.

 

[BritPat]

Talib 6 days a week and twice on Sundays.

 

[mayoclinic]

I edited this sentiment out of my post because it felt a tangent, but now that you bring it up...ideally, with Talib, you'd have a "poor man's Talib" also on the roster. I know that sounds like an embarrassment of riches, but really, you think of a young long corner you pluck from the draft. What we wanted Ras-I Dowling to be, for instance.

Because when Talib went down, as good as we are at CB2-4, and we were as good there as anybody in the league, we got smoked because no one could be physical with Demaryius.

I've been begging for a "poor man's Talib" on the roster. I don't want Arrington or even Ryan forced outside when Talib gets dinged.

Stanley Jean-Baptiste (6' 2 1/2" 214#), Keith McGill (6'3" 215#), Jonathan Dowling (6' 2 1/2" 198#), Aaron Colvin (5' 11 1/2" 194#), Antone Exum (5' 11 1/2" 220#), Ross Co-c-k-rell (6' 183#), Dontae Johnson (6' 2 1/2" 195#) ... Lots of options, including day 3.

 

[mgteich]

The patriots are height-challenged at WR and CB. This has been the case for years. Why do we think that Belichick will now change his ideas of what makes a good wide receiver or corner?

 

[Deus Irae]

The patriots are height-challenged at WR and CB. This has been the case for years. Why do we think that Belichick will now change his ideas of what makes a good wide receiver or corner?

mg, would you kindly merge this thread with the identically titled thread that has the poll in it?

 

[BradyManny]

The patriots are height-challenged at WR and CB. This has been the case for years. Why do we think that Belichick will now change his ideas of what makes a good wide receiver or corner?

He's invested a high pick in Dowling and a trade & ensuing re-up with Talib. Dennard & Ryan are both bigger and more physical than their predecessors at the position. Belichick adapts faster than anybody, and he tailors his team to beat the other best teams. He knows we need a big CB to get through the AFC and into the SB.