Player Signing Why did this team sign Tebow?

[TheGridironGeek]

no..you don't "get" what I mean.

My first response was an OBSERVED FACT...OK? Understand so far?? It ACTUALLY happened last week the entire 2nd half.

YOUR response was a statement AS FACT of something that has not ever nor probably will ever occur. Tom Brady is a first ballot hall of fame quarterback and three time Super Bowl winner...a PROVEN NFL WINNER OF ALL TIME PROPORTIONS. You get THAT??? I can EASILY say that, even with his limited physical ability, Tom Brady WOULD run a read option for better numbers than ONE FOR SEVEN and a 0 QB rating just by MAKING THE PROPER ALL TIME DEFENSIVE FORMATION READS!!!!

Great, you are this tremendous college football guru...go back to Hump St. or whatever and play your what/if patty cake games....krist...it's like bugs come crawling out from the woodwork with you people whenever anyone points out a Timmy failing.

This post is exactly why this topic is NOT a dead horse, it's fascinating. I'm sure you're a nice guy in day-to-day life, but I try to level-headedly defend a guy who everyone trashes, and now we're in an 8th grade locker room, and I'm the goth kid & you're the macho jock who farts recreationally. I'm a bug crawling around and I hump myself and blah, blah, blah. Really. I guess you know all about me from these posts on a football forum and this is your idea of civilized argument. Or maybe the Tebow thing just drives you insane in some way?

I didn't claim to be a guru, and I don't know any football coaches who would disagree with what I said. Have a slow, old, pocket QB -- even one of the greatest ever -- run the option and you've got a disaster. It was tried exactly once in NFL history, with Jim Plunkett when he played for the Patriots in 1973. He looked ridiculous and was injured to the extent that he nearly had to quit football. Plunkett was later MVP of the Super Bowl.

It's nothing against Tom Brady to say he would look ridiculous in the Flexbone. It's nothing against Tim Tebow to say he's a disaster as a pure dropback, short timing-pass QB. Players are good at what they are good at. Ask them to do what they're incapable of and you get bad results, like 1-for-7 for -1 yards. This is all I have said.

You can get back to screaming and insulting me now if it makes you feel better.

 

[Suddyfan]

This kind of depends on how you look at things. There was a debate on a Boston sports talk show that raised an interesting question. IF Tom Brady were to get dinged up and had to miss 2 games this year, what would be better for the Pats ? To have Ryan Mallett out there trying to run Brady's offense ? Or to have Tebow out there running the offense that Josh has tailored to him ?

They left out one possibility in my opinion, which is that Josh might have a version of the Brady offense that is "tailored" more to Mallett's strengths, so that has to be considered as well.

A second thing to look at is that Bill and Josh might be looking to next year. IF Mallett is traded in the offseason and Tebow moves to the #2, will he have developed enough to run "Brady's offense" ?

Third thing to consider. This one is really out there, but not beyond all realm of possibility. But what if Bill and Josh are looking at grooming Tebow to take over for Brady when he retires? AND, the next "evolution" of the Pats offense will be a Spread Option ?

Here's the big problem with the mallet running the Brady offense vs the tebow running his own offense. They haven't run anything close to it in practice. The team wouldn't be ready to run it. Mallett has had 1+ seasons in the offense, looks ok, not a world beater but if you can limit mistakes he won't lose you games. Which leads me to believe that bb and josh aren't moving to tebow if he makes the team and Brady goes down.

In 3 pre season games, scrimmages and practice... Tim plays and practices with 2/3 stringers 99% of the time. Guys that won't make the roster ... How on earth can you think they would be remotely more comfortable with tebow over Mallett?

 

[TheGridironGeek]

Nice write up. I agree with most of it, but would take issue with a few things. This one especially:



That's not a myth. The first 3 quarters of most games absolutely sucked, and Tebow didn't do well in them. Then again, in those 3 quarters, Denver mostly ran a conservative "traditional" offense with some Option thrown in. Believe it or not, Tebow took a heck of a lot more snaps under center with MaGahee behind him in a single back set than most people realize.

When Denver would find themselves behind in the 4th Quarter, the scheme and the play calling would change. Denver would switch to a Spread offense with Tebow operating out of the gun. As some saw with Washington and RG3 last year, this puts the defense in a predicament with personnel. Do they go heavy to stop the run ? Or do they go small to stop the pass.

A good example of this is that final drive against the Jets. IIRC, Tebow lined up under center for only 1 play on that drive and they ran a double option to the left. The rest of the drive, Tebow was in the gun and Denver had 4 or 5 receivers lined up spreading the defense out.

*shrugs* I just respectfully disagree. I did a drive-by-drive analysis of the Broncos 2011 season (I live in Denver, haters, and I've seen drive-by-drive analyses of junior college teams by enthusiasts who live nearby) and a lot of the time Tebow was grinding out first downs and buoying the defense even when they didn't score. Tebow had less three-and-outs than Rivers, Palmer and Big Rape in their matchups. Consider that the Broncos passed a lot in the 4th quarter but still had the #1 ground game in the league. You don't "absolutely suck" your way to a #1 ranking in anything.

What you say about all of the traditional handoffs is true. But the O-Line was playing like a bunch of happy pigs in mud, flying downfield off the snap. They got some pretty decent yardage doing it. Better still for the O-Line was the fact that nobody rushed Tebow after a certain point, they'd just hold their gaps and wait to try to tackle him when he ran.

My feeling is that the 4th quarters were a product of Tebow having worn teams out, more than the play-calling per se. But opening up is a GREAT idea once you've worn somebody out, and whatever anyone wants to say about TT, he is always fresh when other guys are tired.

 

[Joker]

You can get back to screaming and insulting me now if it makes you feel better.

Thanx...your mother is so fat , last week she sat down and didn't have a lap...

I'll be here all season...try the Peking Crow.........:drum:

 

[TheGridironGeek]

Thanx...your mother is so fat , last week she sat down and didn't have a lap...

I'll be here all season...try the Peking Crow.........:drum:

I heard your Mom was so fat she played pool with the planets.

 

[Demosthenes]

Here's the big problem with the mallet running the Brady offense vs the tebow running his own offense. They haven't run anything close to it in practice. The team wouldn't be ready to run it. Mallett has had 1+ seasons in the offense, looks ok, not a world beater but if you can limit mistakes he won't lose you games. Which leads me to believe that bb and josh aren't moving to tebow if he makes the team and Brady goes down.

In 3 pre season games, scrimmages and practice... Tim plays and practices with 2/3 stringers 99% of the time. Guys that won't make the roster ... How on earth can you think they would be remotely more comfortable with tebow over Mallett?

I'm not sure who or what they'd be more comfortable with. I haven't seen enough of Mallett to really formulate an opinion on him. I definitely haven't seen him out there running an offense tailored to what he does best.

As for Tebow, I think they've run some of the Read Option stuff with the first stringers. Could be wrong about that, but I thought that's what I read in some camp reports. At any rate, what Tebow brings to the table is a ball control, Power Running offense that hopefully has a good passing component to it. At least good enough to keep defenses from stacking the box, though that can be done by scheme as well.

Also remember that we aren't talking about a QB taking over for the whole season, but rather, just filling in for 1 or 2 games.

It's an interesting question and I think that the answer is a bit more difficult to come up with than most would think.

 

[Joker]

Also remember that we aren't talking about a QB taking over for the whole season, but rather, just filling in for 1 or 2 games.

It's an interesting question and I think that the answer is a bit more difficult to come up with than most would think.

I think what MAY be in play is that BB is forward thinking, sees the Read/Option as the basic future of the NFL, gets information from his close friends in the SEC college coaching fraternity as to its implementation and has a plan for the post Brady Patriots offense. If so, then why NOT start the ground up construction of this new offense with a prototype player like Tebow?

I do NOT buy any of this "BB is just doing McD a favor", or any other suppositions of shallow cult of personality reasoning behind this. There IS a logical, well thought out reason within the walls of Castle Belichick and it's tough shyt for the rest of us out here beyond the moat.

 

[Demosthenes]

*shrugs* I just respectfully disagree. I did a drive-by-drive analysis of the Broncos 2011 season (I live in Denver, haters, and I've seen drive-by-drive analyses of junior college teams by enthusiasts who live nearby) and a lot of the time Tebow was grinding out first downs and buoying the defense even when they didn't score. Tebow had less three-and-outs than Rivers, Palmer and Big Rape in their matchups. Consider that the Broncos passed a lot in the 4th quarter but still had the #1 ground game in the league. You don't "absolutely suck" your way to a #1 ranking in anything.

What you say about all of the traditional handoffs is true. But the O-Line was playing like a bunch of happy pigs in mud, flying downfield off the snap. They got some pretty decent yardage doing it. Better still for the O-Line was the fact that nobody rushed Tebow after a certain point, they'd just hold their gaps and wait to try to tackle him when he ran.

My feeling is that the 4th quarters were a product of Tebow having worn teams out, more than the play-calling per se. But opening up is a GREAT idea once you've worn somebody out, and whatever anyone wants to say about TT, he is always fresh when other guys are tired.

It's certainly possible that there were games where Denver didn't have a lot of 3 and outs through the first 3 quarters, but there were also lots of games where they did

Having a top rushing offense doesn't actually prevent a team from having a lot of three and outs. For example, Denver avg'd about 165 rushing yards per game. Say they start their opening drive on the 20 and they go down a score a TD by running the ball on every play. That's 80 yds. The next 5 drives of the half, they go 3 and out. Opening drive of the 2nd half, they again start at the 20 and this time they drive all the way down to the opponents 20, a total of 60 yds, and they kick a FG> They now have 10 pts on the board and over 140 rushing yds. They then go 3 and out on the next 4 drives. That's 9 drives that were 3 and outs, but they would have gained some ground yards on each of those as well. Say they gained 5 yards on each of those drives, for 45 yards. That puts them at 185 yards rushing for the game, with 9 3 and outs, and 10 pts on the board.

As for tiring defenses out, sure, that probably has something to do with it as well. Chris Brown published an article over at SmartFootball and Grantland where he talked about the changes in Denver's offense and how they opened things up when they found themselves behind in the latter stages of games. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[Joker]

It's certainly possible that there were games where Denver didn't have a lot of 3 and outs through the first 3 quarters, but there were also lots of games where they did

Having a top rushing offense doesn't actually prevent a team from having a lot of three and outs. For example, Denver avg'd about 165 rushing yards per game. Say they start their opening drive on the 20 and they go down a score a TD by running the ball on every play. That's 80 yds. The next 5 drives of the half, they go 3 and out. Opening drive of the 2nd half, they again start at the 20 and this time they drive all the way down to the opponents 20, a total of 60 yds, and they kick a FG> They now have 10 pts on the board and over 140 rushing yds. They then go 3 and out on the next 4 drives. That's 9 drives that were 3 and outs, but they would have gained some ground yards on each of those as well. Say they gained 5 yards on each of those drives, for 45 yards. That puts them at 185 yards rushing for the game, with 9 3 and outs, and 10 pts on the board.

As for tiring defenses out, sure, that probably has something to do with it as well. Chris Brown published an article over at SmartFootball and Grantland where he talked about the changes in Denver's offense and how they opened things up when they found themselves behind in the latter stages of games. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Here's a tip...go back in the archive here to the week BEFORE the Denver/Pats playoff game...everything you are referencing is contained in those pages leading up to the game. All these links you've seen before. Believe me, that was one dead horse by the time the Patsperts got done with it.

 

[supafly]

I do NOT buy any of this "BB is just doing McD a favor", or any other suppositions of shallow cult of personality reasoning behind this. There IS a logical, well thought out reason within the walls of Castle Belichick and it's tough shyt for the rest of us out here beyond the moat.

I agree with you entirely, Joker.

Obviously I'm not sure if he'll make the cut or not, but I think there's a definite chance that is higher than the majority feel that it is. Either way if it's done it will have been done with some reasoning behind it--not to do any favors etc.

We'll know in about a week. Until then buckle up for a long week of debate regarding this subject.

 

[Joker]

BTW...new TV show..."Growing Pains III" starring Tammy and Lil' T....coming soon to channel 000...on the Cryan JERK TV Network...

 

[Demosthenes]

Here's a tip...go back in the archive here to the week BEFORE the Denver/Pats playoff game...everything you are referencing is contained in those pages leading up to the game. All these links you've seen before. Believe me, that was one dead horse by the time the Patsperts got done with it.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[Christiancat]

Eye On Football - CBSSports.com Tim Tebow plays zero plays in Patriots loss to Lions

Interesting tidbit from article:

"Belichick didn't make any friends in Detroit by not playing Tebow. The Lions crowd chanted for Tebow throughout the fourth quarter and booed the Patriots when Ryan Mallet came out for New England's final offensive drive of the game."

 

[Huckleberry1]

I really thought Tebow made himself a lock with last week's performance, so there was no need to risk getting him injured against the Lions.

 

[DarrylS]

Eye On Football - CBSSports.com Tim Tebow plays zero plays in Patriots loss to Lions

Interesting tidbit from article:

"Belichick didn't make any friends in Detroit by not playing Tebow. The Lions crowd chanted for Tebow throughout the fourth quarter and booed the Patriots when Ryan Mallet came out for New England's final offensive drive of the game."

The last thing BB cares about is his popularity in Detroit or anywhere else..

OTOH thought last night was his best game so far, and how much value he has to this team...

 

[Remarker]

I think what MAY be in play is that BB is forward thinking, sees the Read/Option as the basic future of the NFL, gets information from his close friends in the SEC college coaching fraternity as to its implementation and has a plan for the post Brady Patriots offense. If so, then why NOT start the ground up construction of this new offense with a prototype player like Tebow?

I do NOT buy any of this "BB is just doing McD a favor", or any other suppositions of shallow cult of personality reasoning behind this. There IS a logical, well thought out reason within the walls of Castle Belichick and it's tough shyt for the rest of us out here beyond the moat.

Precisely, and exactly my take on what is happening. Not only based on the Patriots' actions as an organization and BB's pressers but including feedback I get from a number of surprising sources.

My guess is (and purely a guess as it is impossible to tell what motivates people to say foolish things on the internet) that if you knew those sources you would rethink your posting behavior (you may respect them or at least their professional positions), particularly regarding our website as it is our website that has drawn the attention of some of those surprising sources. Whereas most of your posts are reasonable and/or fun, some of your posts are clearly beyond the pail...especially in regard to disparaging others by childish name calling and some wildly tasteless rants. But again, don't let me influence you. At least you are a source for amusement, although it's often perverse.

Just sayin'.

Caveat edit:
Refer: "BB is forward thinking, sees the Read/Option as the basic future of the NFL" of Joker's comment.

Not necessarily sees the Read/Option as the basic future of the NFL but clearly sees the Read/Option as having enough impact to use some resources so the Pats are prepared for it's influence (on both sides of the ball).

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Teeboe playin = we winz

no Teeboe playin = we looze by a bunch

therze yer proof.

/sarcasm

 

[chasa]

I have to admit, Tebow did put on his best performance thus far last night.

 

[sb1]

SB1, you're missing the forest because of the trees again.

Let's go through it step by step. You made the following statement:


I replied saying "Steve Young says hello".


You yammered on and on a bit and said a number of things in various posts such as

After some more back and forth, I posted Young's stats while he was at Tampa. You countered with this post:

This shows that you weren't aware of Young's history, or that you had forgotten it. I say this because you called him a "kid playing on a horrible team" and contrasted that with a "26 year old journeyman QB".

I responded with the following post:

To recap, your basic position was that Tebow is a 26 year old journeyman QB in his 4th season in the NFL and that it's too late to develop him. Afterall, he would be 30 by the time he was the starter.

I said that Steve Young said hello.

You mistakenly thought that Steve Young was a young kid both when he played in Tampa and when he went to San Fran so you argued the point.

The facts of the matter are that Steve Young WAS on his third professional team when Bill Walsh took him in and developed him. Its also the case that he turned 26 less than half way through his first season developing in San Fran. Lastly, it most definitely is the case that he was about a month or so shy of his 31st birthday when he took over as the regular starter for San Fran.

A few points:

- Tim is playing for his third NFL team in 4 years. Journeyman, by definition of the word.
- Steve Young played for 1 NFL team before he became great as a Niner. I don't think we should equate NFL experience with USFL experience.
- Young as a Buc showed more promise at the time than Tebow despite playing for a rotten football team, far worse than any team Tim has played for
- Young never had the major mechanical and fundamental flaws that Tebow still has.
- Young developed in an era of the NFL that didnt have rules designed to let QBs like Matthew Stafford throw for 5000+ yards. All the more reason why Tebow's throwing issues are more egregious than Young's were, that is, if Tim is going to start someday
- Just because Young bloomed at his age doesn't mean we should expect Tim to. Especially if he still can't throw very well even with 4 seasons of NFL experience. That is the point of my argument.
- and the Steve Young analogy is only relevant to Tim if you actually believe that Tim will improve his game so much that he will become a HOF QB, MVP, SB winner and one if the best of all time. If so, I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[detpatsfan]

A few points:

- Tim is playing for his third NFL team in 4 years. Journeyman, by definition of the word.

So what if Tebow is a journeyman? So were players like Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and they won Super Bowls. Tebow was betrayed by Elway and the organization in Denver after rescuing their season and winning a playoff game against the Steelers with his passing in OT btw. The Jets never gave Tebow a fair shot because Rex Ryan is the worst coach in football. Belichick gave Tebow a chance because he obviously sees something in him you don't and I trust his opinion over amateur scouts on the internet who have an anti-Tebow vendetta.

- Steve Young played for 1 NFL team before he became great as a Niner. I don't think we should equate NFL experience with USFL experience.

Irrelevant how many teams Young played for prior to going to the 49ers.

- Young as a Buc showed more promise at the time than Tebow despite playing for a rotten football team, far worse than any team Tim has played for .

False

- Young never had the major mechanical flaws that Tebow still has.

Tim Tebow challenges the conventional thinking of what style of play a qb has to have in the NFL just like Steve Young and Randall Cunningham did in the early 90's. Running QBs did not exist prior to then and people thought they could never succeed in the NFL and only drop back qbs could win.

- Young developed in an era of the NFL that didnt have rules designed to let QBs like Matthew Stafford throw for 5000+ yards. All the more reason why Tebow's throwing issues are more egregious than Young's were, that is, if Tim is going to start someday.

Your argument contradicts yourself. Shouldn't the lax passing rules then also help Tebow?

- and the Steve Young analogy is only relevant to Tim if you actually believe that Tim will improve his game so much that he will become a HOF QB, MVP, SB winner and one if the best of all time. If so, I disagree but you're entitled to your opinion.

No one is saying Tim Tebow will be a HOF QB or MVP. He may not ever win a Super Bowl though I think in the right situation that may eventually end up happening. Tim Tebow has already proved he can be a succesful quarterback in the NFL. He was in a horrible situation in New York where he never got a fair shot. He deserves a fair shot here and would only be taking up a 3rd string qb spot on the depth chart and in the meantime he can help as a wildct qb/tight end/full back and special teams player.





The positives outweigh the negatives with Tebow by far.