Why did this team sign Tebow?

[fnordcircle]

It's not magic, there is not divine intervention, Tebow isn't willing his team to win. Its a lot of really close defense oriented games decided by 3 points or less, with a few broncos getting blown the **** out of the water.

Ok, all valid points but here's the thing:

The Patriots have a better OL than 2011 Denver
The Patriots have a better receiving corps (with a healthy Gronk) than 2011 Denver (Thomas and Decker have come a long way)
The Patriots have a better set of RBs than 2011 Denver

Our front 7 is on a par with Denver's 2011 group but I think they had a stronger secondary.

My point isn't "TEBOW IS GREAT" or "TEBOW WON ALL THEIR GAMES SINGLEHANDEDLY".

I'm responding to a statement that if Tebow started because of an injury to Brady that our season is over and my point is that as great as Brady is it's an insult to the rest of this team and to our coaching staff to assume the season would be over.

It's fairweather fan bull**** from people who don't value the contributions of the rest of the team.

 

[Demosthenes]

That's because "Elway hates Tebow". Remember?

Riiiiight.

Nope. Elway didn't hate Tebow. He hated the way he played. He doesn't believe in "running QBs" or "dual threat" QBs. He wants a guy who will stand tall in the pocket and deliver the ball. He was saying that from the day he took over in Denver.

There's a number of things that I take issue with vis a vis John Elway, but this isn't one of them. I think he's wrong, and that running/dual threat QBs are the future and will win SBs, but it's a matter of opinion.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Nope. Elway didn't hate Tebow. He hated the way he played. He doesn't believe in "running QBs" or "dual threat" QBs. He wants a guy who will stand tall in the pocket and deliver the ball. He was saying that from the day he took over in Denver.

There's a number of things that I take issue with vis a vis John Elway, but this isn't one of them. I think he's wrong, and that running/dual threat QBs are the future and will win SBs, but it's a matter of opinion.

Not liking Tebow doesn't necessarily mean that he dislikes dual threat QBs. You have to be able to throw to be a dual threat.

 

[Demosthenes]

what were the records of the teams both QB's faced?

The nfc is notorious for being a tough division, as opposed to the AFC west where a team can win the division going 7-9.

If you are going to talk about Context, please provide all the context.

Also since you want to compare them so much how about showing how each person has progressed. Obviously thats going to be tricky, what with Tebow not being good enough to be a starter in the NFL, CFL or AFL. So why not pull up Eli's first preseason game of his 4th year, and compare that to Tebows 1st preaseason game of his 4th year.

Lets see if either of them has made some progress,

Given what happened, you can't compare their progression into their 4th year. That's because Eli wasn't traded after his "bad" first year, and he definitely wasn't handicapped by having a guy like Tony Sparano be his OC.

This is why I'm thrilled that Tebow is back with Josh. One way or the other, we'll know soon enough. Either he will develop, and what a slap in the face it will be to Rex, or he won't.

 

[Demosthenes]

Not liking Tebow doesn't necessarily mean that he dislikes dual threat QBs. You have to be able to throw to be a dual threat.

Elway was very clear on multiple occasions. He wants a "traditional pocket passer". The most he'd want a QB to run would probably be on par with Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck.

This isn't a new thing of course and Elway isn't the only one with this opinion. Just 3 years ago or so, it was the opinion of most coaches.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I really enjoy how Eli Manning has become the measuring stick for every fanbase that can't accept that their young QB isn't very good. Jets fans have spent the last two years talking themselves into Mark Sanchez in the same way. I'm willing to bet Jaguar and Viking fans are in the same boat.

 

[sb1]

Here's the relevance. Dial up your way back machine to the end of Eli's first year. You know, where he ranked 33rd or 34th in every statistical category that matters.

Would you agree that it would have been silly and borderline stupid to throw up your hands and say "Worst QB ever, he'll never amount to anything. CUT HIM NOW" ?

It wasn't "silly and borderline stupid" back then. That's all we had to go on, just like with Tim until he proves otherwise. Eli also didn't have the major flaws in his game as a quarterback that Tim has.

Tebow is being judged of a grand total of 16 starts between his first 2 seasons in the NFL.

He's judged as a QB by a lot more than just "16 starts" - but you knew that. Hence the Jets and Broncos showing him the door.

 

[sb1]

Elway was very clear on multiple occasions. He wants a "traditional pocket passer". The most he'd want a QB to run would probably be on par with Aaron Rodgers or Andrew Luck.

This isn't a new thing of course and Elway isn't the only one with this opinion. Just 3 years ago or so, it was the opinion of most coaches.

Elway put his neck on the line and traded away a very popular Tim Tebow after he started his team to a dramatic playoff win, the only playoff win they've had since 2005. That tells you all you need to know about what Elway thought of Tim's abilities on the field as a QB now and in the future.

Before you say "because they had a chance to get Manning instead!" - remember, signing Manning and keeping Tebow as a backup =/= signing Manning and showing Tebow the door.

In fact there's a huge difference.

 

[Demosthenes]

It wasn't "silly and borderline stupid" back then. That's all we had to go on, just like with Tim until he proves otherwise. Eli also didn't have the major flaws in his game as a quarterback that Tim has.



He's judged as a QB by a lot more than just "16 starts" - but you knew that. Hence the Jets and Broncos showing him the door.

"that's all we had to go on". Incorrect. You could have taken the overall context into account, which is what was done in NY.

That's also what was done in both Minnesota and Jax after 2011, and in Tennessee after 2012. Blaine Gabbert and Christian Ponder were right there at the bottom of the stats with Tebow. But people weren't screaming about them not being NFL QB's or crying for them to be cut.

No, people were correctly pointing out that they were YOUNG QBs learning how to play in the NFL, and they were each given TIME. Ponder seems to be on an upward path while Gabbert looks to have gone the other way.

Jake Locker is in a similar situation coming off of 2012. He didn't top the rankings either, but the Titans are giving him time to develop.

BTW, yeah, Eli had serious flaws in his game. He couldn't read defenses coming out of Ole Miss and his passing was seriously inconsistent. Even at the end of his 2nd season, his comp % was 52.9%.

 

[sb1]

"that's all we had to go on". Incorrect. You could have taken the overall context into account, which is what was done in NY.

You are still looking at it in hindsight. *Now* we know it was stupid. It wasn't so stupid back then.

I totally agree that QB's need time to develop and learn. But for every QB who blossomed into a good one after a "slow start", there are many more who did not. So if you're betting on it, the odds aren't in your favor given historical precedent.

BTW, yeah, Eli had serious flaws in his game. He couldn't read defenses coming out of Ole Miss and his passing was seriously inconsistent. Even at the end of his 2nd season, his comp % was 52.9%.

Yes he did, but not nearly to the extent that Tim has. For example, nobody has ever accused Eli of not being able to remember sequences of plays. That is a devastating criticism of a QB prospect who wants to learn and develop and get better.

 

[Demosthenes]

I really enjoy how Eli Manning has become the measuring stick for every fanbase that can't accept that their young QB isn't very good. Jets fans have spent the last two years talking themselves into Mark Sanchez in the same way. I'm willing to bet Jaguar and Viking fans are in the same boat.

It gets into a fuzzy area. Mark Sanchez didn't actually do that bad his first year as a starter. the thing you look for though is the same thing that BB looks for in camp, which his some sign of progression. Mark didn't progress.

Hopefully people won't misinterpret this, but Aaron Rodgers is another good example. In his first 2 years in training camp and the preseason, he looked terrible. I mean absolutely awful. It wasn't until his 3rd year in TC that he started to get things together and he finally started looking the part.

 

[chasa]

Here's the relevance. Dial up your way back machine to the end of Eli's first year. You know, where he ranked 33rd or 34th in every statistical category that matters.

Would you agree that it would have been silly and borderline stupid to throw up your hands and say "Worst QB ever, he'll never amount to anything. CUT HIM NOW" ?

You mean like how the Giants ended up sitting him and starting warner in place of him before eli started showing some improvement?

 

[Demosthenes]

Elway put his neck on the line and traded away a very popular Tim Tebow after he started his team to a dramatic playoff win, the only playoff win they've had since 2005. That tells you all you need to know about what Elway thought of Tim's abilities on the field as a QB now and in the future.

Before you say "because they had a chance to get Manning instead!" - remember, signing Manning and keeping Tebow as a backup =/= signing Manning and showing Tebow the door.

In fact there's a huge difference.

There are any number of reasons that Elway traded Tebow away. You are just latching onto the one that you support. It's basic confirmation bias.

 

[sb1]

It gets into a fuzzy area. Mark Sanchez didn't actually do that bad his first year as a starter. the thing you look for though is the same thing that BB looks for in camp, which his some sign of progression. Mark didn't progress.

Hopefully people won't misinterpret this, but Aaron Rodgers is another good example. In his first 2 years in training camp and the preseason, he looked terrible. I mean absolutely awful. It wasn't until his 3rd year in TC that he started to get things together and he finally started looking the part.

See the part above starting with "For every QB who blossomed into a good one after a slow start..."

 

[sb1]

There are any number of reasons that Elway traded Tebow away. You are just latching onto the one that you support. It's basic confirmation bias.

Ah there it is, the "biased" card. The go-to for Tebow fan when someone says something about Tim that they don't want to hear, no matter how benign. Right.

I would be interested to hear what your take is on why Elway decided to get rid of him - especially given the fact he could have signed Manning and kept Tim as a backup to "develop"... and whether and why you consider that to be the "objective" view.

 

[mgteich]

I understand that quarterbacks have slow starts. Please list the quarterbacks who had a completion percentage of under 50% for their first 3 years and ended up being quality starting quarterbacks.

 

[Huckleberry1]

How do you explain Denver's 2011 season then?

Our SB chances drop precipitously without Brady under center but to call the season over is silly since Tebow has shown he can QB well enough to get a team into the playoffs before and I think our team is more talented than the 2011 Broncos even without Brady.

I thought it was a fluke then and I still think so now. Tebow is actually a wildcat QB, not a read option QB because those QB'S can actually throw the ball and he can't. I am really hoping above all hopes that Belichick comes to his senses and cuts tebow and brings in a back-up to Mallett who can run this offense, as cassel was ab le to run it when called upon. And i stand by my claim that if something happens to both of them then the season is over, Tebow may well be the worst QB i have ever seen at the pro level and there is absolutely no way i want him at QB for even one snap this season.

 

[Demosthenes]

You mean like how the Giants ended up sitting him and starting warner in place of him before eli started showing some improvement?

Eli didn't show much if any improvement then. Warner got benched after 2 successive losses after starting off 5-2. Eli then proceed to lose his first 6 games.

 

[chasa]

Ok, all valid points but here's the thing:

The Patriots have a better OL than 2011 Denver
The Patriots have a better receiving corps (with a healthy Gronk) than 2011 Denver (Thomas and Decker have come a long way)
The Patriots have a better set of RBs than 2011 Denver

Our front 7 is on a par with Denver's 2011 group but I think they had a stronger secondary.

My point isn't "TEBOW IS GREAT" or "TEBOW WON ALL THEIR GAMES SINGLEHANDEDLY".

I'm responding to a statement that if Tebow started because of an injury to Brady that our season is over and my point is that as great as Brady is it's an insult to the rest of this team and to our coaching staff to assume the season would be over.

It's fairweather fan bull**** from people who don't value the contributions of the rest of the team.

Tebow with that better receiving core completed 4/12 passes in his first game action for the pats.

Just because hes on a better team now, does NOT mean he can take advantage of it.

Saying people who Think tebow would result in a lost season are fairweather fans is, to be frank, ******ed. if brady goes down our offense under tebow consists of 3 plays. Run up the middle, run to one of the sides, throw a deep pass. He's incredibly easy to gameplan for, and without a stout playoff caliber defense to keep games close, and to give short fields, Tebow just doesnt have ANY skills which result in an opportunity to win.

 

[mgteich]

The only really good use for a 3rd quarterback is to play the last half of preseason games. One can argue for using a position for a developmental 3rd quarterback. I wouldn't since we have so many positions already used on developmental players. Besides, a 4th year quarterback with a completion percentage of under 50% who has playoff experience, is NOT a developmental quarterback.

For, Tebow was given every chance to unseat Mallett, or at least make it close (in which case, we might have kept both to fight it out next preseason). The reality is that Tebow has three more major opportunities (plus scrimmages and practices) to show his stuff).

I thought it was a fluke then and I still think so now. Tebow is actually a wildcat QB, not a read option QB because those QB'S can actually throw the ball and he can't. I am really hoping above all hopes that Belichick comes to his senses and cuts tebow and brings in a back-up to Mallett who can run this offense, as cassel was ab le to run it when called upon. And i stand by my claim that if something happens to both of them then the season is over, Tebow may well be the worst QB i have ever seen at the pro level and there is absolutely no way i want him at QB for even one snap this season.